Is diesel fuel diesel fuel ?

[Choctaw Bob]

Originally Posted by Hayapower!

So,,,, If you put in a tank, what'll ya sell 29 gallons for!!!

Man, that would be a long trip to get fuel....in Alaska!

[Twin Tritons]

I called the bulk plant at lunchtime and he quoted me $1.93 / gallon for #2 diesel. This is nearly $0.20 more than at the pump right now, he said wait a day or two and the pump price will go up to the new price. I am going to fill up all that I can this evening at $1.65 for premium #2. Price doesn't bother me as much, since I just came from a V10 with 4.30 gears; although my wife is still driving her gasser Hopefully I can get her to convert soon.

My house is 13 miles from the first refinery on the Trans-Alaskan pipeline. Almost like a faucet in my backyard, too bad I still have to pay for it.

[Choctaw Bob]

Originally Posted by Twin Tritons

I called the bulk plant at lunchtime and he quoted me $1.93 / gallon for #2 diesel. This is nearly $0.20 more than at the pump right now, he said wait a day or two and the pump price will go up to the new price. I am going to fill up all that I can this evening at $1.65 for premium #2. Price doesn't bother me as much, since I just came from a V10 with 4.30 gears; although my wife is still driving her gasser Hopefully I can get her to convert soon.

My house is 13 miles from the first refinery on the Trans-Alaskan pipeline. Almost like a faucet in my backyard, too bad I still have to pay for it.

Problem is that spot market speculators have driven up the price just like they did for electricity last summer in California. It looks like Congress should get involved to stop it, but then again maybe they are already "involved".

[mlb4966]

TO Twin Trintons: I feel your pain. I'm at the end of the pipeline and can look accross to the refinery. Paying over $2.00 a gallon. Been tempted to put a 300 gallon Greer tank in the back of my truck and drive to Anchorage were I can get it for $1.60.

Back to the original question. I would like to add to the question by asking is #1 Diesel high enough in additives-sulfer count-ect to shorten the life or create problems with the injectors by using it a majority of the time over #2 Diesel.

[Tadashi]

Have to ask the newbie question... How is diesel sold? Is it already a mix of Diesel 1 & 2 or are there 2 pumps at the stations? (I am still on my dealer tank of gas) I have read articles about doing a 50/50 mix so would that entail filling halfway then grabing the other pump to fill the remainder?

[mlb4966]

The service stations have just changed over to #2. I am assuming that the remainder of # 1 has been mixed with the #2 but I might be wrong. The main reason I asked about the #1 is the following. I have been burning #1 all winter. I have a coworker who has 500 gallons of #1 that he is willing to sell to me. With that given I would be looking at burning #1 all summer. Come Oct #1 will be back at the pumps for winter. Should I be concern about continous use of #1 or should I alternate #1 & #2 every other tank. New to the Diesel game and after reading all of the forums on the 6.0 I am trying to minimize-elimanate any problems with my truck. It's 300+ miles to the nearest dealer.

Thanks for the replay

[Choctaw Bob]

Originally Posted by mlb4966

TO Twin Trintons: I feel your pain. I'm at the end of the pipeline and can look accross to the refinery. Paying over $2.00 a gallon. Been tempted to put a 300 gallon Greer tank in the back of my truck and drive to Anchorage were I can get it for $1.60.

Back to the original question. I would like to add to the question by asking is #1 Diesel high enough in additives-sulfer count-ect to shorten the life or create problems with the injectors by using it a majority of the time over #2 Diesel.

My understandingis that #1 diesel is premium auto diesel which is more refined and contains more cetane, #2 Diesel is a little less refined but still better that diesel nearly everywhere in the world. No 3 diesel is like the deasel you find in third world countries. There are also others that are even worse but the truck will still run on it. You find these in realy poor out of the way places.

I have noted that the state agencies that routinely check the quality of product and the metering of the pumps on gasoline pumps hardly ever do check the diesel pumps as effectively.

[BLK94F150]

Actually, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I remember hearing that the USA has some of the worst diesel in the world. You can get better in most other countries.

Mike

[Twin Tritons]

It is preferred to run #2 diesel to achieve better fuel economy. Diesel fuel in general is a heavier petroleum distillate than gasoline and because of this it has a higher flash point. Due to the refining process, the flash point of #1 fuel will be lowered, and as a result offer better cold weather starting in a diesel compression engine. Since #1 diesel is more refined than #2 diesel, it has less paraffin (ie.: wax) dispersed in it. The paraffin will begin to gel as the ambient temperature drops until it no longer flows, which is approximately 0F for #2 diesel, but can vary by fuel brand or additives. Premium diesels may have additives to keep the paraffin dispersed and prevent gelling, boost cetane levels, add lubricity to the fuel, and/or clean injectors. Premium diesel can vary by distributor since it depends on the additive and concentration of the mix.

In diesel engines, fuel economy is related to the heating value of the fuel. This heating value is measured in BTU’s (British Thermal Units). #2 diesel has a higher density (7.05#/gal.) than #1 diesel (6.76#/gal.). The denser fuel (#2) has more hydrogen and carbon molecules remaining from the refining process thus offers more energy per unit of fuel. #2 diesel has ~140,000 BTU/gallon vs. #1 diesel’s ~135,000 BTU/gallon (FYI: gasoline has ~124,000 BTU/gallon).

Diesel by spec is required to have a minimum cetane number of 40. The cetane number is a measure of how quickly the fuel begins to burn (auto-ignite). The higher the cetane number, the quicker ignition will occur. Most diesel has a cetane range of about 40-46 and premium diesel will be in the 45-50 range. It has been reported that diesel fuel reaches a plateau and will not benefit from raising the cetane number greater than 50. Most diesel additive with cetane boost will raise the cetane number 4-6 points. This will bring standard diesel into the premium range. My personal research has shown that a diesel additive with antigel additives and a 4 cetane boost adds ~$0.035 per gallon and a diesel additive without antigel additive and a 6 cetane boost adds ~$0.035 per gallon. This is about the difference you see from regular diesel to premium at the pump.

The semi-trucks that run here in the winter months utilize #2 diesel fuel year around for better fuel economy. They also have to use fuel additives or fuel tank heater (electric or engine coolant based) to keep the fuel from gelling. The diesel additive with antigelling properties can lower the pour point as much as –30F. This would allow you to run #2 fuel with better fuel mileage results and still have cold weather operability. Personally I have to run #1 fuel in the winter because it may get as cold as –40F to -60F. I still add the fuel additive for increased cetane levels and more lubrication to the fuel system (fuel pump and injectors). I switch to #2 fuel as soon as I can without the risk of cold temperature gelling my fuel. I have heard of as much as a 30% reduction of HP on a dyno running #1 vs. #2 fuel. Some areas that may not get as cold can offer blends of #1 & #2 which lower the pour point to a safe level and still maintain some of the fuel economy benefits.

I hope this information helps everyone. It was my own research from sources from which I deem credible, but take it for face value. Chevron has some good information on their website (http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/diesel/) and so do some of the diesel fuel additive companies. I currently have only tried 2 diesel fuel supplements and do not have any hard evidence (dyno or emissions testing) to favor any particular one, but have had good results from both.

[Twin Tritons]

mlb4966,

I'd pass on the #1 fuel from your friend. Not only is it more expensive (depending on when he bought it vs. today's price of #2), but will offer less fuel economy (see post above). Also, it may have accumulated water and debris. You'd be better off buying fresh, clean #2 fuel from a reliable source. If it is a price you don't want to pass up and it has been around awhile, you may want to look at some biocides and water removal agents and definately use an in-line filter when fueling you truck (protect the high dollar Ford filters in your truck). Diesel 9-1-1 from PowerService looks like it would be a good product to use on older fuel, but this will also increase your cost of the fuel per gallon.

[IB Tim]

TT very good reading, everyone should take note.

[Twin Tritons]

mlb4966,

I always use 2 in-line filters when utilizing fuel out of drums or tanks. The first filter is a 15 micron particle filter with a built-in water trap. This is a pleated filter in a plastic filter housing which allows you to see particle and water build-up. Goldenrod is the brand I use. The second filter is a 5 micron aviation grade particle filter in a metal spin on filter housing. I have used this type of filter from both Faucet and Velcon (expensive, ~$45, but worth the protection). A helicoptor mechanic friend of mine turned me onto this setup because it is what they use to fuel up in the field. I figure a helicoptor pilot is a little more concerned about good quality fuel than I am, so what he is using should work well for me.

To find a good supplier of filters and fuel additives, search the yellow pages for fuel distributors. Find a bulk fuel and lubricant distributor that has retail sales, most of the time this will be the cheapest you can find additives locally. The distributors also have a pretty good selection of fuel additives even if their oils might be limited to one brand. I also found the aviation grade filter at Alaska Rubber, a local rubber hose and fitting warehouse.

[mrxlh]

Having worked in the oil field for the past few years, I understand how Californians feel about their gas prices. What many of them fail to realize the reason fuel is cheaper every where else is because of one oil company's patent on refomulated gasoline. Unocal has taken every major oil company to court on patent enfringement for reformulated gas. One might ask how does this translate into higher diesel fuel prices? Well its simple, they can truck diesel in from neighbooring states at a reasonable price, due to no special refining process required. The refineries located in the state of California have been alotting all of their refinery upgrade cash for clean gasoline technology. Some have already started on the low low sulphur diesel technology, but most are just trying to keep up with the jones'. Also the cash deals included in some of the recent mergers of refiner's and marketers are being passed on to the customer as well. Valero, Ultimar, Diamond Shamrock merger, Chevron Texaco Merger, BP, Amoco, Arco, Vastar, Forest, Castrol Merger. Conoco Phillips merger, Exxon Mobil Merger Many of these companies also have to sell key components in marketing or refining, or production to keep from becoming a monopoly. Mobil may have owned a pipeline before the merger with Exxon, and was collecting royalties on volume from other companies but now had to sell the pipeline and now has to pay to use it. Some of you may also not realize the trucking is not the only way fuel and products are transported. Diesel, gasoline, fuel oil, and even alot of chemicals travel throughout the country via pipeline. Californians also do not want any new refineries or powerplants, or oil and gas production. So they get their just desserts and pay the price. Hope this offers some insight, even if it don't help ease the wallet shock.

Ryan

[Choctaw Bob]

Originally Posted by Twin Tritons

It is preferred to run #2 diesel to achieve better fuel economy. Diesel by spec is required to have a minimum cetane number of 40. . This is about the difference you see from regular diesel to premium at the pump.

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/diesel/[/url]) and so do some of the diesel fuel additive companies. I currently have only tried 2 diesel fuel supplements and do not have any hard evidence (dyno or emissions testing) to favor any particular one, but have had good results from both.

Very good information. Thanks! I learned a lot! I will change my habits by always filling up at the truck pumps at the truck stops. I had noticed a wide difference in fuel mileage this spring from 15 to 19.5 and the only difference being the fill up points. Another point I gained was that I should add Power service to the number 2. i will do that also. Thanks again.

[Choctaw Bob]

Originally Posted by mrxlh

Having worked in the oil field for the past few years, I understand how Californians feel about their gas prices. What many of them fail to realize the reason fuel is cheaper every where else is because of one oil company's patent on refomulated gasoline.So they get their just desserts and pay the price. Hope this offers some insight, even if it don't help ease the wallet shock.

Ryan

Thanks Ryan, It points out that high fuel prices are caused by enviromentalists, lawyers, polititians, and all of us that support excessive regulation on an industry. All these costs have to be paid and now is the time.