What's up with all the IFS Threads.
#31
10-03-2003, 10:00 PM
" ... we don't have to sugar coat everything beyond any value either. Get ready, here comes the 'fenders rant
I'm a big boy, I won't cry if we point out a Volare has 27 yards of weld in it. It's a fact, and it isn't an advantage. It takes a long time to make a Volare anything that resembles pretty."
In fact, 27 yards of welding might well be an advantage to someone who likes to weld. They just might prefer welding 27 yards than do something else that is required for a different IFS option. Don't confuse sugar coating or policical correctness for what I'm suggesting. Here is an example:
Volare IFS
Characteristics:
1. Requires 27 yards of welding
2. Adds 2,452 lbs to truck front end beyond stock curb weight
3. Sometimes gold bars can be found inside donor car structural members
4. Can't be painted black
5. ...
Get it? This is what I would NOT like to see:
Volare IFS
Characteristics:
1. Requires 27 yards of welding and that's a pisser for everyone because nobody likes to weld
2. Adds 62 lbs to truck front end beyond stock curb weight so it's bad because these trucks weight too much already
3. Refurbishing the wear parts requires some effort to locate parts and this is always bad because nobody likes to look for parts
4. Provides a smooth ride which is always a good thing that everyone loves
5. ...
Simply stating a characteristic without putting a negative or positive on it is not sugar coating by any means. If there is a point that is not obvious, that can be handled easily.
Volare IFS
Characteristics:
1. Requires 27 yards of welding. This may require considerable time and/or welding experience to successfully complete.
No value judgements, just state the facts and let folks make up their own minds. Since Fergie has already volunteered to do the writeup, I can safely admit that I have to do exactly this kind of design option summary briefing for the Air Force on a regular basis. The really good ones contain "Just The Facts" as Joe Friday says, no judgements on my part. The big boys make the judgements based on the facts in the briefing. That way, nobody can blame me for anything.
I'm a big boy, I won't cry if we point out a Volare has 27 yards of weld in it. It's a fact, and it isn't an advantage. It takes a long time to make a Volare anything that resembles pretty."
In fact, 27 yards of welding might well be an advantage to someone who likes to weld. They just might prefer welding 27 yards than do something else that is required for a different IFS option. Don't confuse sugar coating or policical correctness for what I'm suggesting. Here is an example:
Volare IFS
Characteristics:
1. Requires 27 yards of welding
2. Adds 2,452 lbs to truck front end beyond stock curb weight
3. Sometimes gold bars can be found inside donor car structural members
4. Can't be painted black
5. ...
Get it? This is what I would NOT like to see:
Volare IFS
Characteristics:
1. Requires 27 yards of welding and that's a pisser for everyone because nobody likes to weld
2. Adds 62 lbs to truck front end beyond stock curb weight so it's bad because these trucks weight too much already
3. Refurbishing the wear parts requires some effort to locate parts and this is always bad because nobody likes to look for parts
4. Provides a smooth ride which is always a good thing that everyone loves
5. ...
Simply stating a characteristic without putting a negative or positive on it is not sugar coating by any means. If there is a point that is not obvious, that can be handled easily.
Volare IFS
Characteristics:
1. Requires 27 yards of welding. This may require considerable time and/or welding experience to successfully complete.
No value judgements, just state the facts and let folks make up their own minds. Since Fergie has already volunteered to do the writeup, I can safely admit that I have to do exactly this kind of design option summary briefing for the Air Force on a regular basis. The really good ones contain "Just The Facts" as Joe Friday says, no judgements on my part. The big boys make the judgements based on the facts in the briefing. That way, nobody can blame me for anything.
Last edited by Earl; 10-03-2003 at 10:05 PM.
#32
10-03-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by BobJonesSpecial
TO: George, fatfenders, and ALL ENGINE AND FRONT END SWITCHERS: ...
TO: George, fatfenders, and ALL ENGINE AND FRONT END SWITCHERS: ...
Us old people have the nicest stories.
#33
10-03-2003, 10:53 PM
#34
10-04-2003, 09:16 PM
Last Call for the IFS threads
The threads are slowing down and we'll soon have enough info to present an intelligent overview. Please check your threads if you have further comments regarding the following characteristics:
cost, quality of ride, handling, adustability, appearance, ease/difficulty of installation, strength, performance upgrades, comfort upgrades.
If it's not in the thread, it may not be mentioned in the summary. Don't assume we know it. All of the above may or may not be covered if we don't have the info available.
This may take a little while to assemble. We will probably request the threads be locked and unstickied pretty soon to clear up the board for new discussion.
Obviously a few of the "criteria" mentioned above are subjective. You'll get a bit of our opinion no doubt but this isn't a contest. What you won't find in the final summary is "And the best front suspension for an F1/F-100,F250 is.........". That decision is to be made by the reader.
Good Evening,
cost, quality of ride, handling, adustability, appearance, ease/difficulty of installation, strength, performance upgrades, comfort upgrades.
If it's not in the thread, it may not be mentioned in the summary. Don't assume we know it. All of the above may or may not be covered if we don't have the info available.
This may take a little while to assemble. We will probably request the threads be locked and unstickied pretty soon to clear up the board for new discussion.
Obviously a few of the "criteria" mentioned above are subjective. You'll get a bit of our opinion no doubt but this isn't a contest. What you won't find in the final summary is "And the best front suspension for an F1/F-100,F250 is.........". That decision is to be made by the reader.
Good Evening,
#35
10-05-2003, 08:59 PM
'fenders,
Could I make a suggestion to part of the fan-out for the FAQ? Somewhere near the top break it out by :
1.) Stock axle, original.
2.) Stock axle based upgrades.
3.) Crossmember based IFS upgrades
4.) Frame-graft based IFS upgrades.
I realize that sometimes there will be overlap; such as you can get to camaro IFS by either frame-graft or by installing a No-Limit camaro crossmember. In my opinion we should steer people away from frame grafting and towards the crossmember based IFS kits. Also, if you are willing to hack a frame off at the front for IFS, and hack off the back for a four link, you are only a couple new lengths of box tubing away from a complete new frame. Save or sell the complete old frame, suspension, and running gear to someone like George. Also the crossmember kits would be a boon to (future) owners with excessive compulsive IFS swapping disorder.
Jus' my $.02..
Brett
Could I make a suggestion to part of the fan-out for the FAQ? Somewhere near the top break it out by :
1.) Stock axle, original.
2.) Stock axle based upgrades.
3.) Crossmember based IFS upgrades
4.) Frame-graft based IFS upgrades.
I realize that sometimes there will be overlap; such as you can get to camaro IFS by either frame-graft or by installing a No-Limit camaro crossmember. In my opinion we should steer people away from frame grafting and towards the crossmember based IFS kits. Also, if you are willing to hack a frame off at the front for IFS, and hack off the back for a four link, you are only a couple new lengths of box tubing away from a complete new frame. Save or sell the complete old frame, suspension, and running gear to someone like George. Also the crossmember kits would be a boon to (future) owners with excessive compulsive IFS swapping disorder.
Jus' my $.02..
Brett
Last edited by bhabben; 10-05-2003 at 09:04 PM.
#36
10-05-2003, 10:32 PM
'fenders,
Could I make a suggestion to part of the fan-out for the FAQ? Somewhere near the top break it out by :
1.) Stock axle, original.
2.) Stock axle based upgrades.
3.) Crossmember based IFS upgrades
4.) Frame-graft based IFS upgrades.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brett
I see a few obstacles to discussing it in this manner.
I hinted early on in the thread for some discussion and pricing of stock axle upgrades like power brakes and steering. They didn’t really materialize to any degree. Not enough info to discuss upgrades in any detail at this point.
How could you attempt to combine the IFS into those broad categories? A Gibbons, Aerostar and an MII, while crossmember based, couldn’t be discussed as a single style of IFS. They aren’t even close to the same. Perhaps I misunderstood and that isn’t what you are suggesting we do?
Where does a Volare fall under? Would that be a frame graft?
__________________________________________________
I realize that sometimes there will be overlap; such as you can get to camaro IFS by either frame-graft or by installing a No-Limit camaro crossmember. In my opinion we should steer people away from frame grafting and towards the crossmember based IFS kits.
__________________________________________________ __
Brett
To the best of my ability, we will not attempt to steer anyone away from anything. By default, your assumption automatically assumes that certain IFS are superior to any frame graft IFS. There’s a little more to it than that IMO. Whether I agree with you or not isn’t even important. I’m not going there, hope you understand. It will be bad enough just pointing out a single negative characteristic of a given suspension. You know somebody is going to take offense. There are several suspensions discussed here I would probably never install in my truck. If the article is done right, you won’t really know which ones they are.
__________________________________________________
Also, if you are willing to hack a frame off at the front for IFS, and hack off the back for a four link, you are only a couple new lengths of box tubing away from a complete new frame.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you’re right Brett. Sounds like another thread someday.
Could I make a suggestion to part of the fan-out for the FAQ? Somewhere near the top break it out by :
1.) Stock axle, original.
2.) Stock axle based upgrades.
3.) Crossmember based IFS upgrades
4.) Frame-graft based IFS upgrades.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brett
I see a few obstacles to discussing it in this manner.
I hinted early on in the thread for some discussion and pricing of stock axle upgrades like power brakes and steering. They didn’t really materialize to any degree. Not enough info to discuss upgrades in any detail at this point.
How could you attempt to combine the IFS into those broad categories? A Gibbons, Aerostar and an MII, while crossmember based, couldn’t be discussed as a single style of IFS. They aren’t even close to the same. Perhaps I misunderstood and that isn’t what you are suggesting we do?
Where does a Volare fall under? Would that be a frame graft?
__________________________________________________
I realize that sometimes there will be overlap; such as you can get to camaro IFS by either frame-graft or by installing a No-Limit camaro crossmember. In my opinion we should steer people away from frame grafting and towards the crossmember based IFS kits.
__________________________________________________ __
Brett
To the best of my ability, we will not attempt to steer anyone away from anything. By default, your assumption automatically assumes that certain IFS are superior to any frame graft IFS. There’s a little more to it than that IMO. Whether I agree with you or not isn’t even important. I’m not going there, hope you understand. It will be bad enough just pointing out a single negative characteristic of a given suspension. You know somebody is going to take offense. There are several suspensions discussed here I would probably never install in my truck. If the article is done right, you won’t really know which ones they are.
__________________________________________________
Also, if you are willing to hack a frame off at the front for IFS, and hack off the back for a four link, you are only a couple new lengths of box tubing away from a complete new frame.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you’re right Brett. Sounds like another thread someday.
#37
10-06-2003, 07:40 AM
Brett
I hope I didn't tick you off with my response. I don't want to start a bar fight with the final write up. At the same time I hope it can have value. This thing is going to be pasted on top of the forum for a long time. When we started this, I had this illusion that people wouldn't mind constructive criticism on obvious shortcomings of their suspension if the message was delivered by users of the same suspension. From the posts here and offline emails, I no longer believe that. There will always be straight axle guys that won't ever concede the fact that just maybe a Corvette IFS will handle significantly better. Some of the IFS guys are not in touch with the fact that their use of a car suspension may call for a little caution before loading up the truck at the Home Depot.
I may be sorry if we don't write it up like Mister Rogers. RMF and I are working on the initial product. It will then be sent out to a few suspension owners who seem capable of unbiased analysis. We'll see what happens from there. I can promise you the Volare write up will contain the "CON" side. I refuse to conceal them from an unsuspecting new builder. I can promise little else at this point. We'll just have to see how this goes.
Regards,
I hope I didn't tick you off with my response. I don't want to start a bar fight with the final write up. At the same time I hope it can have value. This thing is going to be pasted on top of the forum for a long time. When we started this, I had this illusion that people wouldn't mind constructive criticism on obvious shortcomings of their suspension if the message was delivered by users of the same suspension. From the posts here and offline emails, I no longer believe that. There will always be straight axle guys that won't ever concede the fact that just maybe a Corvette IFS will handle significantly better. Some of the IFS guys are not in touch with the fact that their use of a car suspension may call for a little caution before loading up the truck at the Home Depot.
I may be sorry if we don't write it up like Mister Rogers. RMF and I are working on the initial product. It will then be sent out to a few suspension owners who seem capable of unbiased analysis. We'll see what happens from there. I can promise you the Volare write up will contain the "CON" side. I refuse to conceal them from an unsuspecting new builder. I can promise little else at this point. We'll just have to see how this goes.
Regards,
#38
10-06-2003, 08:28 AM
Posting Guru
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Pensacola Florida
Posts: 1,022
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe we are headed in the right direction. I also feel that we are on a mission to provide accurate and concise information without all the hype and media BS that surrounds marketing. We are not recommending or condemning any of the suspensions. No emotion will be used to guide, push or encourage one over the other. Most of us involved would of course want to see their selection on a lofty pedastal but that isn't what this is about. There will be no winners or loosers. As it was stated earlier.
JUST THE FACTS
JUST THE FACTS
#39
10-06-2003, 10:32 AM
Senior User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Silverthorne Colorado
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe a point to include in the forthcoming IFS article would be some sort of "rating" as to the amount of alignment or critical measuring or welding that must be done by the instasller.
Some of the vendor supplied crossmembers begin the installation with simply bolting in to existing stock frame holes. The way they are constructed eliminates the need for any measuring or aligning. (ie Gibbons/Cordoba) Others are manufactured so that a plate or flange of the supplied crossmember simply lays against the bottom of the existing stock frame rail and all that is nescessary is to accurately determine the fore and aft placement before beginning the welding process. (ie most Mustang II crossmembers)
Other installations, Camero clip. Galaxie clip and Volare, for example, require CONSIDERABLE measurement in many directions and planes for accurate installation with little, if any, solid guidelines other than measurements to go by.
Maybe a rating of 1.=easy, basically bolts in with little or no
welding or critical alignment processes.
2.= Minimal critical measurement required with
fairly extensive welding.
3.= Major critical measurments and placement
required. Extensive welding required.
This is by no means a final draft, but just a suggestion as to the style that a rating system might take for each proposed suspension. Possibly a 1 thru 5 or 1 thru 4 rating would be more comprehensive.
I would also suggest a suggestion(?) be included in the article stating that ANY suspension conversion be taken to a reputable and properly equipped front-end alignment shop for final adjustment/alignment before driving on the road.
Do you realize that 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
Good luck, and be safe.
BobJonesSpecial
Some of the vendor supplied crossmembers begin the installation with simply bolting in to existing stock frame holes. The way they are constructed eliminates the need for any measuring or aligning. (ie Gibbons/Cordoba) Others are manufactured so that a plate or flange of the supplied crossmember simply lays against the bottom of the existing stock frame rail and all that is nescessary is to accurately determine the fore and aft placement before beginning the welding process. (ie most Mustang II crossmembers)
Other installations, Camero clip. Galaxie clip and Volare, for example, require CONSIDERABLE measurement in many directions and planes for accurate installation with little, if any, solid guidelines other than measurements to go by.
Maybe a rating of 1.=easy, basically bolts in with little or no
welding or critical alignment processes.
2.= Minimal critical measurement required with
fairly extensive welding.
3.= Major critical measurments and placement
required. Extensive welding required.
This is by no means a final draft, but just a suggestion as to the style that a rating system might take for each proposed suspension. Possibly a 1 thru 5 or 1 thru 4 rating would be more comprehensive.
I would also suggest a suggestion(?) be included in the article stating that ANY suspension conversion be taken to a reputable and properly equipped front-end alignment shop for final adjustment/alignment before driving on the road.
Do you realize that 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
Good luck, and be safe.
BobJonesSpecial
#40
10-06-2003, 11:10 AM
"I would also suggest a suggestion(?) be included in the article stating that ANY suspension conversion be taken to a reputable and properly equipped front-end alignment shop for final adjustment/alignment before driving on the road."
All very good points. We intend to include the required skill level into this. Regarding your statement pasted above. It will be in there as well as legalistic sounding caution statement which clearly lays out the consequences or getting in over ones head in the IFS fabbing and welding department, or using hokey suspension install techniques. As obvious as that seems to me, we gonna say it anyway.
All very good points. We intend to include the required skill level into this. Regarding your statement pasted above. It will be in there as well as legalistic sounding caution statement which clearly lays out the consequences or getting in over ones head in the IFS fabbing and welding department, or using hokey suspension install techniques. As obvious as that seems to me, we gonna say it anyway.
#41
10-06-2003, 08:05 PM
'fenders,
No offense taken. Got a thick skin, no web spankin' will compare to one's I take in person every day. Feel free to put me in my place at anytime.
Anyway, all the IFS options make your head swim. My suggestion was just an attempt to somehow organize this info into headings and then sub headings making it easier to follow.
I realize that it may be a political hot potato to place CONS on anything, but truely agree it would be a major disservice to new users not to be truthful. If you need SA CONS, I'd be willin' to give you an earful. Also, after years of seeing fads of all kinds come and go I hate to see 'permanent' mods made that will take another truck out of the pool of source material for future projects. It's a free country, but I just cringe everytime I see a frame whackin'.
Anyway, I sure do appreciate what you are doing.
Good Luck!
Brett
No offense taken. Got a thick skin, no web spankin' will compare to one's I take in person every day. Feel free to put me in my place at anytime.
Anyway, all the IFS options make your head swim. My suggestion was just an attempt to somehow organize this info into headings and then sub headings making it easier to follow.
I realize that it may be a political hot potato to place CONS on anything, but truely agree it would be a major disservice to new users not to be truthful. If you need SA CONS, I'd be willin' to give you an earful. Also, after years of seeing fads of all kinds come and go I hate to see 'permanent' mods made that will take another truck out of the pool of source material for future projects. It's a free country, but I just cringe everytime I see a frame whackin'.
Anyway, I sure do appreciate what you are doing.
Good Luck!
Brett
#42
10-07-2003, 11:25 AM
#44
10-07-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by 51dueller
So who will be credited for the article? I think the author should be named the 48-60 Truck guys/gang/forum.
So who will be credited for the article? I think the author should be named the 48-60 Truck guys/gang/forum.
"How to Torque Off All Your eFriends in a Week".
'fenders
Yes Nathan, of course the forum will be given sole credit for the thread. The words 'fenders, RMF, Lord Ferguson of Canada and such are not contained anywhere in the text.
