OK, since I've missed countless opportunities in my recent absence to stir the pot and inject my unsolicited opinions into otherwise civilized debates, here's my 2 cents worth. I wouldn't use Mustang II parts on my lawnmower. Mostly because the cars were ugly. Ha! Every MII crossmember manufacturer is trying to kill its customers, if you ask me. They all want to reinvent the wheel (or at least what it gets bolted to) in the name of slickness and beauty. The strut rods are supposed to be there. Period. Eliminate them and you lose all of your rights to complain when your suspension system wads itself up into a ball. And that is the first thing your typical aftermarket producer wants to do. I'm not really kicked about any of them - save for one that 'fenders and I ogled at Pigeon Forge this spring. Very beefy and the craftsmanship showed. It was nice. All except for the price tag. Nobody has that much money. Well, nobody but Daryl. I'm sure Carl will be along shortly to beat me about the face and eyes for assaulting the almighty Industrial Chassis Dakota unit, but I wouldn't have one of those either. The pictures I've seen indicate that it is made out of recycled Daihatsu fenders and it doesn't seem to fit right away without a five pound crossmember adjustment tool. For that much money, it better fit like a glove. And besides, what good is a real truck suspension if you are attaching it to a soup can? I'd risk my life to a Volare, but they seem to have a way of bringing an inordinate amount of clearance problems along for the ride. I generate enough of those on my own. I don't know that I'm really comfortable with having 5 miles of welding to do, either. For fit, finish, quality, strength, ease of installation, AND price, my money is still on the Gibbon setup. And my a$$ is, too. You may fire when ready.

 

Oh my, those of us with stock front ends do love to watch the bloodshed over IFS choices. Barb, can you bring me some more popcorn, please, while I observe the fracas?

After reading this entire thread, I can't help but feel it is my duty as an American to rant and rave about something without a clue as to what I am talking about. That appears to be tha 'mericun way!

Since Rage was willing to take a punch in the face, I'll have one too, please, for the following statements.

The problem with you guys and gals is that you're missing the first principle of engineering this type of equipment. FOR THE LAST TIME, THERE ARE MULTIPLE FAILURE MODES - NOT ALL OF WHICH ARE IMMEDIATELY APPARENT WITHOUT A LOT OF TESTING. Hmmm ... that sounds suspiciously like something I've heard before - especially the "FOR THE LAST TIME" part. Anyway, I'd guess we have about 1% of the information needed to effectively evaluate the various designs and options. I bet that, with a LOT of work, we could get that up to 5%. Point is, given the above numbers, you can smack each other up side of the head as much as you like and any given opinion is going to still be just as good as any other. I'm pretty sure none of the above is going to stop any of us. I'll even bet a nickel on it.

Can somebody lend me a nickel?

 

"FOR THE LAST TIME, THERE ARE MULTIPLE FAILURE MODES - NOT ALL OF WHICH ARE IMMEDIATELY APPARENT WITHOUT A LOT OF TESTING."

George

First of all, there is no last time here. If I took that attitude the last 3 or 5 people I helped with their Volare clips on and offline would not have the benefit of my successes and failures. You just keep repeating yourself when I need it until we say stop. And then repeat yourself again if you know you're right. We only have a few of you guys with solid engineering background.

Yup, I remember you saying that a couple times George. And I know we don't have Ford Motors R&D budget. Heck, not even Hiedts, IC, No Limit or any of the other kit manufacturer have that kind of budget. I think 50,000 unit sales was the breakeven point for proper testing, or something like that you said. They can only rely on their engineering talents, experience and feedback from their customers that live. We can't even adequately test our theories if we put a particular unit in our own car and drive it for 5 years. We agree on that. We'll never achieve the degree of certainty you get at work analyzing aircraft.

You convinced me on the foregoing paragraph several rants ago. (It's that one third of my opinion thing I learned from you guys).

But............... are you saying we can do nothing meaningful at all WRT suspension swaps? I think you misunderstand my end goal. Here's is my intent/questions, highlighted with stupid examples because believe me buddy, I have seen some stupid stuff done to rods.

Can I go no further than stock Pinto control arms look real scary to me? If Niolon wakes up in the night and a voice tells him the Kia Sophia IFS is the trendsetting rage for a working '56 2 ton dumptruck at Supernats '06. I know that's a ludicrous example, but can we not procede with a basic set of facts and determine it's not likely a viable solution. Total engineering solutions no, but if Charles can research out the fact that a Pinto balljoint is the same as Ford determined strong enough for an LTD Station wagon, then he can proceed to other components that are more suspect. I don't think it's a waste of time to research heavier duty bolt on parts like rotors for a suspension he knows was designed for a lighter vehicle. But he probably needs a clue what the front end weights are when he chooses a rotor size? It seems logical to me. Since the aftermarket industry can't do proper R&D testing, then I guess they must get their data from us, the test rats on the street. Isn't that what we are doing when we experiment with improvements to existing ideas such as Niolons gussets?

Can we not calculate the force required to bust a 3/8 wobble extension from a Craftman tool kit, and deem it a bad idea to use as a steering couple cause they're much cheaper than a Borg joint?

Should I take the time to check out the weight of a stock Dodge Dakota before I laugh when Carl refers to it as a real truck? I think I probably should, but I didn't and I may have influenced someone by doing that. We DO influence people here. I have installed some Volares over the internet. That's pretty scary when you really think about it. I'm light some of that 5% solution you refer too at the moment.

I know this is an easy one, but we have good weight data available for differentials. Do we need an engineering solution before we can debate the installation of a GM 12 bolt diff in an F1? Probably not IMO, I think we can infer from some readily available data.

Am I completely wasting my time to find out if a Gibbons style IFS was installed in heavier vehicles by Chrysler than a Volare clip? And how those stock weights compare to the individual F-1, F250 weights. I don't think I am. Yes, I know there is much more to suspension failure research than that, but is it a complete waste of time in your opinion to try to figure out if you are using a given clip in a truck that weighs DOUBLE the stock donor application? I would think a person should know they just did that to their truck. If so, I might as well just spend all my time surfing the internet for cool new Rod Doors interior parts and stop rendering an opinion on anything mechanical for lawsuit purposes.

 

Good rant, 'fenders. I'll take that as my punch in the face. Now, who's gonna give Joe his?

Keep in mind that I include myself as one of the targets of everything I wrote. Nothing better for the ego than making a fool of yourself in a village council meeting (another story), or on an FTE thread.

Having just re-read what I wrote, I think I should have sprinkled in about two dozen more rolling eyes smileys. This morning, I just can't conjure up the image of a raving, wild-eyed Ted Kaczynski delivering the rant, as I did last night when I wrote it. It certainly doesn't seem like the Saturday Night Live skit I imagined without 'ol Ted doing the honors. I have fallen victim to the dreaded adage, "There is no good way to project sarcasm and/or indicate teasing in a forum post." I am duly chastized.

Anyway, this IFS issue does have a serious side, since folks are riding on various incarnations of systems from various sources. And no, I definitely don't think you are wasting time by using judgment and experience to evaluate the various options. After all, besides having and broadcasting dearly held opinions, using experience and good judgment is also the American way. It has been a mainstay of our advancing technology for many decades.

Yes, I need to take my medication before posting at night. And no, I'm not going to stop enjoying the arguments over the various IFS options. And yes, ... what the heck was I going to say? ... Oh yeah - nana nana poo poo! By the way, that phrase has nothing whatsoever to do with the term Cootie-Bob.

Oh, by the way, you don't remember the "FOR THE LAST TIME" reference?

 

Yeah Right. Guys as long as no one really gets mad this is all fun and humorous and I love it. But let's get back to a question........or two. LOL

First

Should we start a new post and title it "IFS The Final Word" and have it stickied to the top. This subject or an aspect of it comes up so often that it is a shame to have it scattered across who knows how many posts over the last five years. It wouldn't have to just be Mus II it could include everything except GM subframe additions. We have to draw the line somewhere. What are your thoughts on this?

Second

I am merely a amateur not even dry behind the ears but one of my character traits or flaws depending on how you view it is that I analyse everthing to death. Having said that and being too lazy to do a search and read for a hour have there been failures where the culprit was the strut being too weak. I'm aware of the strut bracket failing at the weld but are there cases where the lower A frame was secure and the frame mount was intact and the srut bent. Of course I'm talking normal driving and not running into a huge tire swallowing pothole or a traffic accident or running off the road etc.................

Third

What have the circumstances been that surrounded each failure. Were they on vehicles that we would have assumed to be safe or if we each had put our critical eye on it would we have shook our head and said, "What did you expect?". Are we assuming bad enginnering when really it was abuse or stupidity? How many failures have there been? I operate on the principal that I am responsible for me. There is a big difference between cupable negligence and doing something risky and getting hurt. When we choose to modify our vehicles we do it at our own perile. If you jack up a car, crawl under it and the jack fails and you get hurt is it the jacks fault or the engineers fault or the person who sold it or ??????????? I don't think so. I think it is your fault. A jack is for jacking something up not holding it up. Jack stands hold something up and if you don't use them it is your fault if the jack fails and you get hurt. It doesn't matter if the jack is made of inferior parts. You shouldn't have been under any part of anything the jack was lifting. If you choose to modify something then you better be prepared for the bad part. If we driving one of our highly modified vehicles get involved in a traffic accident the involves serious injury or death the lawyers are going to eat us alive and it doesn't matter who made the part. Ultimately you decided to change Henry's design and that makes you responsible. When your own family is involved can you live with that? You better be able to. Be responsible for your actions and don't try to blame everyone else. That is the bottom line. How the hell did I get here? OK sermon over.

 

"Good rant, 'fenders. I'll take that as my punch in the face.

I didn't mean it to be a punch in the face. Just trying to pull you out of engineer mode. We need your input on the physics questions, if you can accept the fact that all we can hope to achieve is an informed guesstimate in many cases.

"Now, who's gonna give Joe his?"

Are we encouraging fighting here George? (Gotta be rolling your eyes when you hear that from me) OK, I'll punch Joe in the stomach but somebody bigger than me has to help. Cause not only is 'rage cuter than most of you guys, I'm certain he can whip me too.

'rage

Nobody with an MII cares if you think stock MII parts are ugly or not, where's the beef???

At some point I am determined to press this just a little beyond your idea sucks cause I say it does. I'm not just talking MIIs either. There is quite a bit of good debate on that one elsewhere too. Failing that I'm just going to post a Volare-F100 fact and opinion site and stay out of the IFS threads altogether. I'll just use that for the monthly Newbie Volare Thread response. Hang on to that thought Joe while we gather some info and progress the IFS debate in a more constructive direction.

All 48-60 forum members can applaud themselves for one thing. This is about the only place I know where you can debate a controversial question, with no correct answer, without the words "Yo Mamma", or something to that effect, being used by the third post, every time.

 

The deafening silence from some of the newer members makes me think they are waiting for the doo-doo to hit the fan from the last few posts here. Relax gals and fellas, Joe, Charles, 'fenders, and I are really in laid-back mode.

There is some history behind at least my post that would explain the edgy tone, but like my non-existent high-school girlfriends, that's ancient history. Just wish I wasn't stuck inside with this !@#$% head cold and flu. Keeps me from taking out my frustrations with the grit blaster and makes me type too much - as if you hadn't noticed.

 

I recall quite clearly all the discussions we had WTR comparitive IFS design. I searched the links provided by the helpful people on this board. I'll qualify my opinion with this remark; when I bought my truck, I also paid the seller an additional $500 for his collection of parts to install the Gibbons kit, so I'm inclined to want to use that kit for that reason as well as for other reasons that were discussed here on FTE.

I think one of the reasons for the MII kit is that it has been used in a lot of other applications. It was probably an easy leverage to use the knowledge and available parts to set up a kit for the F100. The MII is a tidy looking kit; if you want a pretty truck that you keep in the garage most of the time and don't want to use it as a daily driver, it might be ok.

But to me, my vehicles are transportation, even the MGB. Usually. Sometimes it's parking lot art, but I intend it to be functional.

The advantage of the Volare setup is that it's pretty much an integrated unit. The Gibbons Cordoba setup is much less an assembly and more a system that integrates with the frame and chassis.

In my opinion all IFS conversions have a requirement that the frame be stiffened, boxed properly.

I like the Gibbons because the end of the torsion bar run parallel to the frame. It helps with load distribution.

Struts are a vital part of an IFS and many MII kits leave them off for reasons of looks. That's dumb on several levels.

Oops. Gotta go. Time to do some canning.

 

'fenders as you mentioned testing of the products. Like the volare has be aound for almost 20 years (correct me if I'm wrong), the Mustang II was around for less than 10 years. The only suspension that has been around the longest is the straight axle and it's still being used today. It's still around because it simple and almost indestructable. Those are some of the reasons I kept the straight axle. You could put it through hell and back and it will still work. May not be the nicest lookingt thing ever and ride but it works. Don't get me wrong the IFS are nice but I'll stick with the I beam. Ford didn't give up on the I beam in 65 they just cut it in two and added coils. The Twin-I-Beam may have been hard on tires but it was just as durable and it must have worked since Ford used it to '96. My 2 cents which is which is worth 1.4 cents US.

 

To the new guys, yes we're nuts but most of the characters in this discussion have sat down to supper this year. And not a single punch was thrown.

On to Pauls post.

"I like the Gibbons because the end of the torsion bar run parallel to the frame. It helps with load distribution."

Can you expand on that a bit Paul? I'm not sure what that means. Or how it differs from a 90 degree T-bar system.

"Struts are a vital part of an IFS and many MII kits leave them off for reasons of looks. That's dumb on several levels."

I fully agree and believe that's the only significant problem with most MII setups that use tubular A arms. Ford invented the MII for the Pinto. They wasted no money on Pintos. I owned a couple and you got nothing extra. They must have added the torque strut because they either suspected the lower control arm, or the mount ear was suspect. Ford is the only one with adequate resources to ever apply heavy R&D to the MII. I wish I was smart enough to quantify how much strength you lose when you take a leg off the triangle. I know this is old ground. It will be great when Niolon is on the road and can test his gusset plan. The 460/AT will test it thoroughly.

Nathan

Ford uses the I-beam/straight axle today in the '02 Super Duty I drive at work. Tough as nails for sure. Has some drawbacks in the comfort department, but it's a real truck suspension if that's what you need.

I have no doubt the Volare style IFS filled the bill for Chrysler. But it was bolted onto a frame designed to accept it. We are chopping a chunk of frame bottom out to install it so all guarantees are null and void. It has a limitation. Just where that is I don't know. F100, F250 ??? It's not a 2 ton dump truck IFS, I know that for sure.

 

Yo mamma? I suspect Dewayne has been spending too much time sharing a joint with the motor pool gang!

Seriously tho, these discussions need to be had if only to let the new members know that it is not all plain vanilla ice cream here.
Installing a completely different front end requires both analytical and fabrication skills that many just dont have and I'd hate to hear of a failure due to someone falling for advertising hype, missinformation or just plain BS.

As many of you know I spend most of my forum times elsewhere and get the opportunity to read about the same type of discussions involving different vehicles, including the C words versions of our effies. Believe me we are very mild on FTE in our opinions.

Notice also Im rarely around here on weekends as Im doing the car show circuit on a regular basis so I get to both see and talk a lot....no comments George.

The one thing I follow to a fault is being conservative when it comes to safety. Dewayne seems to laugh when I call the Dakota a real truck but damn it, it is. If Ford, GM or even Toyota had a setup that was comparably robust and readily adaptable I'd look at those also. I have absolutely no brand loyalty when it comes to safety.

A few here seem to feel that stance is the most important factor, others are more interested in resale value. Then again others are looking for the cheapest way out and are easily swayed in that direction, be it a clip job or other junkyard scrounging. At least 2 have used the economy version Heidts M11 and profess it just fine as is.

Clip jobs have the benefit of factory engineering. There is something to be said for a clip out of a LTD/Merc/Lincoln 460 equipped land barge even if it doesnt look that good to those with asthetics hangups.
Ive ridden in several GM clipped vehicles using the biggest available upgrades such as the Z28, BBC or similar handling packages. They run circles around the M11 IF DONE CORRECTLY.
Please remember, the M11 conversions are NOT intended for performance use, wheras a Big Block Camaro was designed to be beat on AND survive. Not to say that we are taking our effies on a road race but I like that extra comfort margin when Im riding with someone who likes to get it on once in awhile.

OTOH, I have never ridden in any Volare/Cordoba/Fifth Av or similar equipped conversion, dont even know anyone who has one around here. On some forums they are at the bottom of the preferred list; along with AMC Pacer and Aerostar. Without first hand experience Im not about to make judgements.

Thats my rant for today, Im putting on the firesuit and going to bed; Im running on empty.
Pound away, Ill be back tomorrow.

 

Paul wrote; "I like the Gibbons because the end of the torsion bar run parallel to the frame. It helps with load distribution."

Dewayne wrote; Can you expand on that a bit Paul? I'm not sure what that means. Or how it differs from a 90 degree T-bar system.

Well, as we all know, a coil spring is a coiled torsion bar, and visa-versa. A coil spring would be braced on one end by the frame of the vehicle (the other end pushes against the lower A-arm and suspends the vehicle above that A-arm.)

Where the front coil spring is braced is on the front of the frame, of course. The load (weight) of the front of the vehicle is borne at that point.

The Cordoba torsion bar is attached to the frame at the middle of the frame, under the cab. Although the force that the torsion bar suspends is the weight of the front of the vehicle, that force is transferred to the middle of the frame where the frame is a bit better triangulated.

Obviously, shock loads are borne at the front of the frame.

The Volare suspension is clever but it requires a somewhat stiff front structure to work within. Volare has a unibody type structure. The F100 has a flimsy ladder frame.

That's my latest theory on F100 IFS.

 

After reading the last seven posts I went back and sure enough I found my post. I was beginning to wonder if it had been deleted. What I haven't found is any answers to my questions. Slow down for a second and look back and see if you have any answers please or did I break the unwritten rule and get blackballed.

 

I didn't see it until now. Here you go.

From Darkman

"First

Should we start a new post and title it "IFS The Final Word" and have it stickied to the top. This subject or an aspect of it comes up so often that it is a shame to have it scattered across who knows how many posts over the last five years. It wouldn't have to just be Mus II it could include everything except GM subframe additions. We have to draw the line somewhere. What are your thoughts on this?"

__________________________________________________ __

Darkman

There will be no final word here. On this you can bet the farm. What we could use is a standard IFS overview by committee post. Stock and modified straight axle suspension should be included too. It could give a brief description and an overview of the widely accepted Pros and Cons of each method , as well as the not so unanimously accepted Pros and Cons. There would probably be some bloodletting but I think we could work out a final product largely free of emotional rant. We like to answer the newbies questions thoroughly, but don’t have time to type three pages every couple weeks. We could ask Kenny for a sticky.
__________________________________________________ __
Second

I am merely a amateur not even dry behind the ears but one of my character traits or flaws depending on how you view it is that I analyse everthing to death. Having said that and being too lazy to do a search and read for a hour have there been failures where the culprit was the strut being too weak. I'm aware of the strut bracket failing at the weld but are there cases where the lower A frame was secure and the frame mount was intact and the srut bent. Of course I'm talking normal driving and not running into a huge tire swallowing pothole or a traffic accident or running off the road etc.................

Darkman

My interpretation of the few MII "catastrophic" failures were problems at the lower control arm mounting ear. It looked to me to be totally avoidable if a torque strut were present. That's my opinion but I'm fairly confident its accurate and I'm not alone in my opinion. Sorry but I'll drive around the potholes doesn't get it. Any street ride should be able to take a pretty good shot without fear of losing your control arms. An accident is another story. That said, there are a lot of MIIs on the road. To my knowledge incidents are few but I do’t know that with any certainty. 100% perfection in safety is not expected but that should be the engineers goal. I think it takes a back seat to showtruck appeal unfortunately.

__________________________________________________ __

Third Question

That was a damn fine rant there Charles. Yes we are ultimately responsible for our vehicles safety. There is inadequate R&D from the aftermarket so we have to help each other out and do our own here.
__________________________________________________ __

 

Charles,

Sticky post for IFS? Last word?

There are varying opinions on what the last word should be. John installed a Volare IFS and then immediately took it back out and put in a MII. Other people won't put a MII on a lawnmower.

Strut failure mode? Not bending. Struts are made with spring steel. As I understand it, their function is to counteract the rotation forces of braking. Without struts, the control arm bears that force and fails.

Third; circumstances of failures. Broken welds, probably an effect of some other problem, not a cause. Broken LCA due to a lack of a strut.