DOHC,
Good post! Thanks for the info. I have often thought the 4.2 probably is "easy" on oil. I actually use about 6.5 qts every change as that puts it about 2/3 up the crosshatches on the dipstick.
Your comments about various engines is a good one. My wife had (for a very short time) a Lexus ES300 that suffered from the severe coking/caking/crud problem. It was UGLY!
But you do make a good point that might bear highlighting more often: some particular engines, as a whole, are more demanding on oil than others.
I tend to get tunnel vision and think only of the 5.4 / 4.6 and 4.2. Obviously in my case, the 4.2 is what tends to steer my thoughts and comments. In summary, if my motor does in fact go 200,000 miles (and beyond) then I probably would have seen no benefit from synthetic.
I'll be doing a 5,000 mile drain within the next few days. It is Chevron Supreme 10W30 (run from 97,000 to 102,000). I'm going to get a U.O.A. done and will post the numbers here.

Oil is the closest thing to politics, religion, and Ford-vs-Chevy, that I know of. Well, maybe except for Cubs-vs-White Sox and Mets-vs-Yankees.

 

My experience is with VII (viscosity index improvers). They are basically a synthetic rubber in most cases. Technically a styrene isoprene co block polymer. There are different grades avaiable that have varying ability to thicken the oil as temperature rises the cost of these additves vary accordingly. I would suspect that synthetics are given the highest grade\ most expensive grades.

A couple important things to know.

1. VII do not lubricate the engine and can form sludge in the engine if the base oil flashes off. (burnt rubber)

2. The viscosity is for a specific temperature! a 5w-30 oil will NOT follow the same viscosity curve as SAE 30, at higher temperatures the curve will begin to follow that of its true base oil weight. Thats why in a lawn mower straight 30 is better and also why a 10w-30 can cause deposits in the same type motor

3. the higher the natural viscosity index of the base oil the less VII is required.

I think that the lower the spread from base oil to operating viscosity the better the natural lubricating properties of the oil.

Note multi weight oils are a good thing but like everything more is not always better.

 

Synthetics don't use Viscosity improvers thats one of the reasons why they are better oils. As in my earlier responce to this thread..

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html

 

DOHC, HT/HS is not related to viscosity in any way. You may have assumed that if you were looking at the OTC charts but it is exactly what it is- the High Temp/ High Shear rating of an oil. While it is not the only criteria to judge an oil, it is of major importance as it is directly related to ring and bearing wear. As stated, the 5w-20 M1 is 2.6, which means it barely makes grade as 2.6 is minimum. Chevron Supreme is 2.8, Castrol GTX is 2.8, Amzoil XL 7500 is 3.1, and Redline 5w-20 is 3.2. Even the new M1 in 0w-30 is 2.9 as is the new 0w-40. So you can see, M1 is not the best choice in this weight oil, especially considering that you are paying more but getting less.

I would have to agree with you concerning the moly, it does not make the oil. It is for boundary lube anyway. Most of our driving is not in the boundary lube state but in mixed film. I prefer it as backup or insurance should things go wrong under the hood. For those "not in the know", moly does not become an issue until temps get around the 360F mark. This is the only issue I have with the Motorcraft 5w-20 as it relies solely on the basestock to hold together. Otherwise, I have a database at work with scores of reports on the Motorcraft and none are bad. All things considered, it holds up remarkably good.

I will also agree with you that not all engines are created equal. The worst engine on oil is the Toyota V6 with the timing gears inside the engine. Shearing at the gears is incredable and most oils, including synthetics, won't stand up passed 5,000 miles. I still have my brothers 3.4 "Yota engine that seized using M1. The oil from analysis showed it was toast at 5,000 miles. And while I am not a fan of synthetics, it was not M1's fault. It is a bad engine design. Toyota has now designed the engine to have the cam gears on an exterior belt.

 

99f350sd, Your M1 uses Hydroxyalkyd Carboxolic Ester and Di-PE as viscosity improvers. It also solves some of the additive solubility problems with PAO basestock oils. You would be correct in stating that PAO basestocks require smaller amounts of VI's but to claim that none are used is wrong.

I think we have this thread bleeding pretty good-uh?

 

Flash,
As always...good info.
You state you are not a fan of synthetics, and it should be obvious that I am not either. It is not that I think synthetics are "bad", I just don't think they're worth the extra $$. So, with the subject at hand (the 5.4 question) what EXACTLY would you recommend in both 5W20 and 10W30 weights, and which weight would you run if it were your Expy?
A little off the subject, but if synthetics are "better", why do they (or maybe just Mobil1) tend to show higher wear metals in U.O.A.? That just doesn't add up to me.
Also, concerning the Moly issue, I did not know that the Motorcraft 5W20 didn't use Moly. I'm still (and always will be) learning about engine oils, but I think I'd PREFER a base stock beefed up with some Moly. Just seems to make good sense to me. What - i f anything- am I missing here?

The bleeding continues ......

 

What do I know. nothing. Just what I read. Oh well to get back to the question... I use castrol 5w30 with ford filter. I have used castrol for 35 years or as long as I remember. I have never had an engine have an oil related wear problem...I have a vw van 86 that has 160k on it the engine runs like new. Same with my turbo charged motorcycle that makes 160 hp per liter. So I don't know what to say other than change the oil. I actually like doing it. Its like giving my horse some water...LOL

 

Flash,

HT/HS when speaking of higher limits are aleays related to the viscosity being higher as well. You just posted to that fact by the numbers you put down although they need corrected/

Mobil SS

5/30 --- 3.1
10/30 --3.2
0/40 -- 3.9 not what you posted
15/50 --5.2

Citgo 10/30 3.2
Citgo 5/40 4.2

When you see an ACEA A3 rated 30wt it will have a min HT/HS of 3.5 but will be on the high end of the scale for a 30wt

See, it truely is related to viscosity" or hydrodynamic VI " and that's why the ACEA " that you don't seem to care for " calls for a spec that's A3. You will never ever find a lower VI 30 wt that meets the spec..the ones that do are a high 30 wt as in 12.4 centistrokes @ 100c or 212f

I see many here do not like the Mobil oil but where else are you going to buy or obtain a true synthetic for 17 bucks for 5 quarts ? I think they could make it a tad better but then there would be an ensuing price increase . I never ever used the Trysyn or older generations of the Mobil because it was not that good IMO but the New Supersyn is all that .It really is but you cannot get the best analysis from it with one use and a crankcase that has residual dino in it.
These engines of today are darn near throw aways as in about non-rebuildable. The rods on the 4.6 and others are " cracked" and cannot be resized ect making for in my opinion the more reason to maintain a new motor properly unless your the type to trade every few years.

Bryan, Please PM to me your email address. I have copyrighted material I cannot post about the Friction modifier moly you will enjoy reading . It's not all it's cracked up to be and again, there's not a single long drain oil in Europe using it to my knowledge and that's for a reason I do believe .

Sorry Flash but the best oils in the world are located over there going against our prior discussion about them.

GF-4 will mix things up a bit and hopefuly give us better oils. Zincless oils are in use now , overseas though .

99f350sd.

Turbo bike ? Tell me more.......

I have a Turbo Bandit B-12S ..makes a tad over 200hp at the wheel on pump gas . Using Motul in it FWIW

 

Zinc less oils are being pushed by the EPA. Hope they don't succeed. ZDDP is the bedrock anti wear additive, you cannot have your oil certified without it. It is pressure activated and you can actually see it kick in on the amperage draw during load tests. You can add moly, boron phosphate, Synerlec, whatever. No ZDDP, no certified star burst. Interesting thing more zddp will not add more protection just increase the length of time before it is consumed.

 

Dohc

Honda 82 500cc twin modified around 85 hp

 

Nearly any 5w30 will get that engine to 150k with no problems. The 5w20 spec for newer models is primarily driven by CAFE. Looking up part numbers reveals that no changes were made on any lube critical parts: pump, rings, bearings in engines that 5w30 was recommended for vs engines that 5w20 was recommended for. That being said, many 5w30's will shear to a 20 weight over the course of an OCI. There are a bunch of you right now with what amounts to a 20 weight in the sump! A shear stable 5w30 is an excellent choice, especially if you are stressing the truck with towing, extremely hot weather, or a chance of overheating. My recent favorite is Schaeffer's 7000 series, a blend of grpIII and PAO with moly and a mild solvent (Penetro) to keep the internals clean. Havoline Deposit Shield may be another good choice. The 30 weight starts out in the lower range of 30 weight cst, but appears to be shear stable in use. In any case, I personally stay away from Mobil1. The cost is too high for the value received. For example, Schaeffer's is about 4.00-4.25 a quart, and has about 30% PAO. M1 is has been analyzed as a grpIII oil, and is running 5.80-6.25 a quart. Not saying M1 is a bad oil, mind you, but the value received for the price just isn't there. M1, Syntec, Pennz Platinum, even the lowly SuperTech Synthetic... they are all similar base oils, with different additive packs. I would choose Pennz Plat over M1 anyday based on the cost/value relationship. For you 40 weight users, Shell Rotella synthetic is a very fine oil... Shell's XVHI base oil is very stout, and for the price, would be a very hard oil to beat.

 

I've heard the 5w-20 was spec'd for CAFE reasons, but I was also told by a service manager that the newer 5.4L (I think 05+) have the variable cam timing and require the thinner oil. He told me that some customers with fleet vehicles, were having some failures in the cam timing systems due to running the thicker oil.

Has anyone else heard this or is it BS?

 

Interesting read gents. Does anyone here have an oil analysis done on occasion? I see where some folks have run oil to 5000 miles, something I'd never do in an engine that held less than 3 gallons of oil. I have done double blind oil analysis tests, and at 3000 miles 5 to 6 quarts of oil have reached their saturation level of soot. Simply put, they're in grade and have good base numbers, but can hold no more soot without risking abrasion damage to the engine.

I'm not a big believer in synthetics for year round use, but I do run Delo 400 0W-30 in the winter. During hunting season I have dug my rig out of more than one snowbank where it started right up without so much as a rattle. In this regard, I'm a believer. 95% of the time I run Delo 15W-40 in everything and have been happy, but it's not the best thing for air-cooled Onans! It is not my intent to toot Chevron's horn as I've run Conoco Fleet, Cenex 518 and Castrol, rather it is a simple matter of settling on one product.

 

Holy old thread!

I am a firm believer that the most important thing is actually changing the oil no matter the weight or brand. I ran Chevron 10w30 for a good 3 years in my 5.4L in temps ranging from -30F to over 100F, I then switched to motorcraft 5W20 for about a year then figured there just isn't any real point in it. CAFE reasons sounds like BS to me, if it raises the mileage by a tenth so what? anyway I have now settled on motorcraft 5w30. I change mine somewhere around 4K miles, when it reaches 3K I start thinking about it and it usually gets changed within the next 1K or so. I now have over 200K miles and have never had to tear into the engine and I drive it hard every day with no trouble as of yet.

I would say if you ran 15W40 in -30F weather or a 0W in 120F weather you'd most likely probably do damage to a gas engine, but other than the extremes I don't think it much matters.

 

how are you doing I have a 07 Ford Expedition that was taking 5 w20 oil I switched to Royal Purple full synthetic 10w 30 I've had no problems I had no leaks no engine problems I pulled my pan after 5000 miles and it was clean but I'm thinking about going back to 5w 20 Motorcraft as I was using Royal Purple that was for Highway and it worked great but it all depends on where you live I think.