Preparing for the 7.3 to 6.9 Swap on my IDI Van - Page 3 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums



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Preparing for the 7.3 to 6.9 Swap on my IDI Van

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  #31  
Old 02-14-2017, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Josh_Bear View Post
Yes fuel down is CCW
Well. hmm. I've adjusted the timing now to 11-12 deg. It appears to be clearing some of the smoke. But it still rolls coal pretty decent. I'm going to turn the screw down another flat. Kinda crazy when this IP was on the 7.3 and was running clear, but put it on a 6.9 and you need to pull it back 3 whole flats to get it into shape. wild.
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  #32  
Old 02-14-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by genscripter View Post
Well. hmm. I've adjusted the timing now to 11-12 deg. It appears to be clearing some of the smoke. But it still rolls coal pretty decent. I'm going to turn the screw down another flat. Kinda crazy when this IP was on the 7.3 and was running clear, but put it on a 6.9 and you need to pull it back 3 whole flats to get it into shape. wild.
Are the injectors the same? What changed aside from the block(Sorry if you already posted the answer somewhere)?
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  #33  
Old 02-14-2017, 10:19 PM
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Are the injectors the same? What changed aside from the block(Sorry if you already posted the answer somewhere)?
6.9: block, heads, intake.

stole from the 7.3: injectors, injector lines, IP, GP harness, GP's, sensors, oil-pressure sender, hypermax turbo kit, etc.
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  #34  
Old 02-14-2017, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by genscripter View Post
6.9: block, heads, intake.

stole from the 7.3: injectors, injector lines, IP, GP harness, GP's, sensors, oil-pressure sender, hypermax turbo kit, etc.
That IS wild! I'd never think it would be such a difference. How's the butt dyno? Is it appreciably slower than the other engine? Faster?
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  #35  
Old 02-14-2017, 10:47 PM
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That IS wild! I'd never think it would be such a difference. How's the butt dyno? Is it appreciably slower than the other engine? Faster?
I've never been able to test WOT. When I give it 1/3 throttle, it's already blowing black. Here in Calif, if I got caught coalin', I'd get a huge fine. Don't need that. I just gotta get the smoke under control, then fine tune the timing and fuel supply.

But with all the fuel cranked up, the turbo is spooling nice. I'm getting 3+ PSI just tiptoeing the throttle already. I'm confident I'll max out the Hypermax kit (designed to top end at 12psi) once I get smoke settled and can give her WOT up these Calif mountains.

EGT's are still really low, considering I'm not testing the engine proper yet.
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  #36  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:55 PM
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While cleaning up the garage, I looked at the old 6.9 injectors. One did not have the copper crush washer on the tip. So, either the PO didn't put a crush washer on it, or it is stuck in the engine.

If it is stuck in the engine, then I probably ended up doubling up on the washers, cuz my 7.3 injectors had washers on them. Would two copper washers lead to my white smoke issue?
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  #37  
Old 02-16-2017, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genscripter View Post
While cleaning up the garage, I looked at the old 6.9 injectors. One did not have the copper crush washer on the tip. So, either the PO didn't put a crush washer on it, or it is stuck in the engine.

If it is stuck in the engine, then I probably ended up doubling up on the washers, cuz my 7.3 injectors had washers on them. Would two copper washers lead to my white smoke issue?
I would find out which one it is and fix it just to rule that out and for precision.

While I was going through the manuals relating to something different I stopped briefly at a diagnostic section for smoke. For black smoke at idle and/or under light load one of the causes can be an injector nozzle(s). I didn't have time to go through that but if that extra washer is causing the nozzle tip to be recessed at all into the nozzle bore then I would say yes it can cause that.

Before seeing that my perception was that even the smallest difference between a single spray from that nozzle compared to the others may seem insignificant but when you multiply that by how many times that injector pops at idle RPM and higher RPM that tiny difference becomes larger.

I figured that you had probably measured to see which injector it is by now and fixed it but if not, I would just to rule out that possibility.
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  #38  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:27 AM
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12 curse words an hour,
11 rear heater hoses replaced,
10 ounces of PAG oil,
9 times I pulled the alternator,
Ate nothing but junk food and aspirin.
7 days of raining,
6 electrical connectors recrimped,
5 - degrees - BTDC
4 AC lines cleaned up,
3 flats turned down,
2 injector crush washers fixed,
1 broken injector cap replaced,
and a partridge and a pear tree.

And it's starting to clear up the smoke a little and reign in some of these leaks. I think I finally got all the injector leaks worked out. And there was a double washer in the 3rd cylinder. I couldn't get it out, but i just pulled the washer currently on the injector, and installed it where the crush washer is currently situated.

I called R&D about my smoke issues. They recommended I pull the timing down to around 5 degrees. I did that, and the black smoke was much less. I'm down 3 flats, and I'm considering moving it down another half flat. I haven't tried driving it yet, because I just reinstalled the whole AC system, so I'm testing if it'll hold vacuum. 12 hours and the needle hasn't budged. Good sign.

Light at the end of the tunnel. Ready to run the coolant flush and purge some of this rust out of my coolant system.
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  #39  
Old 02-17-2017, 04:34 PM
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Some weirdness. I noticed after the 6.9 swap that my gauges run better. My speedo doesn't wobble all the time and my fuel gauges (still don't work well) but they are more steady.

Any idea why this would happen? Maybe my motor grounds are better cleaned? but why would motor grounds matter for a speedo and fuel gauge sensitivity?
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  #40  
Old 02-17-2017, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genscripter View Post

.........and a partridge and a pear tree.
HOLY MOLY, genscripter!

That reminds me of my insanity of getting obsessed with things, but I have to honestly say that I think you are AWESOME for so much relentless effort! That is what I do when I am in the midst of solving a difficult problem. I get obsessed and can't stop until it's solved. It gets insane and I KNOW it's insane.

As for my previous reply, I had lost attention of the whole thread at the time and I thought it was a BLACK smoke problem. If you have a factory shop manual there is a whole diagnostics and testing procedure for smoke issues. For the most part it is testing practically everything that has to do with the performance of the engine but it might offer some clues.

Too bad that 'partridge in a pear tree' isn't an all expenses paid 6-8 week vacation to some exotic place for total rest, relaxation and enjoyment of peace and tranquillity where you could forget about this for a while and let the confusion fall by the wayside. THEN come back with a clear mind and take a simple fresh look at the problem.

It might just take a few days of setting it aside.

The crazy part of all this is that it is probably JUST ONE BASIC THING.

My main comment is that sometimes setting it all aside for awhile and coming back with a fresh clean and less confused view on it can help to spot the problem.

I only vaguely recall the history of your 6.9L engine and I'll probably go back and look later - I get obsessed with solving problems and that's why I am following your thread, more to learn things as others have more direct experience but I understand machining, tolerances and the mechanical aspects of an engine quite well - not the injection pump though. I haven't gone there yet because I have too many other priorities.

I'll take a look at that white/blue smoke diagnostics/testing section later and see if I can spot anything that might fit your situation.

THE REST is off topic, a little bit of my situation Sorry but I am going to leave it.

Gotta get caught up on a lot of other stuff first, I am completely overwhelmed here and years behind with everything.

I have a two bedroom fully furnished (by me) place and there are only TWO places to sit! One on the edge of my bed and the other at my computer desk where I live. I have narrow trails to get through to each room. EVERYWHERE are tools and parts, tool boxes, etc. everything is covered including chairs, dining table (under it too) and the sofa, Big rollaway in the dining area which I have to step over tools, tool boxes and parts just to reach over far enough to open a drawer and get something out of it. A huge rack full of cans of paint and chemicals on the top two layers and miscellaneous stuff on the 8 more shelves below it that go to the floor and that's only one side of it. Can't get to the other side without moving a lot of stuff out of the way so I can roll it out.

Air compressor plugged in next to my toaster and Microwave in the kitchen, it's where my trash can is supposed to be which is now in front of the sink. The 50 ft. compressor hose is strung out into the living room with a few coils on the floor where my main trail is. I have to move the compressor sometimes to open the refrigerator door - small sand blaster and blasting media on the kitchen floor.

Behind me (one of my favorite things) is oxyacetylene cylinders (125 cu. ft. size) on a cart with 50 ft. hoses attached and in a bundle on the floor that reach all the way out to the street to the back my truck which is where I used them last... plus another set of new high quality 36 foot heavy duty industrial torch hoses, a BIG National junk yard torch, Two Victor torches and attachments on the floor at my feet and another box with extra regulators gauges and a small torch set, the hoses of which are piled up next to my roll-away. (I'M ALMOST FINISHED). In my main bedroom a Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC welder and leads that I have apart for servicing (which I should try to get done today) My workspace for that (and some other things) IS THE BATHROOM which also serves as my paint booth.

The front bedroom is basically inaccessible and that is completely filled up with mostly musical instruments of all sorts from an antique drum kit from 1939 (Ludwig and Gretsch) to a BBb TUBA and even a Cello. Lots of guitars, I used to have 16, not certain how many now after one burglary and one theft. It's easier to list what I don't have: a violin, a flute and an Oboe! That is all part of my PREVIOUS insane obsession, (before my IDI truck) which was a home recording studio and I actually have the whole works for a recording studio. All of that has to be sold, I'm only keeping about 3 guitars.

Finally I have a large outdoor shed about 15 ft. by 36 ft which is packed with stuff including more tools&equipment, power tools, bench power tools etc. a lot of which have been rust damaged by Pacific Northwest Weather and roof leaks. That's why so much of my stuff is inside here. I patched the worst leaks but I won't pay for replacing the roof as it is a rental and the multi-millionaire slum lord (very nice guy though!) won't pay a penny to fix it. I'm planning to move to a sunny climate ASAP this year.

Well, I need to get off of here and start cleaning this mess up and try to at least get that arc welder finished and back together. After I get this mess straightened up I can start working on my truck again.
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  #41  
Old 02-17-2017, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Fixnstuff View Post
HOLY MOLY, genscripter!

That reminds me of my insanity of getting obsessed with things, but I have to honestly say that I think you are AWESOME for so much relentless effort! That is what I do when I am in the midst of solving a difficult problem. I get obsessed and can't stop until it's solved.

.
yep. i'm anxious to get the van up to tip top shape. I don't like to leave it unfinished. Sadly, it's raining 1"/hr here in Los Angeles, and i'll have to wait until Monday or Sunday to test drive and see if my smoke has cleared up. But anything you can find in your manual would help me immensely.

Two basic problems:
  • black smoke when I ham on it
  • light white smoke when it is idling with the brake depressed, but no smoke when idling Park or Neutral.

Like you said, it's probably something simple. I'll turn the engine down another half-flat if it's still burning black when I give 'er. Maybe play around with 4deg or 6deg and see how that performs.
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  #42  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:08 PM
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I forgot where I read it, might have been here on FTE, but I've heard that there is a slight difference between 6.9 and 7.3 injection lines. The slight difference can mess with timing. I'd stick the 6.9 lines on and see if that changes it. I could be wrong though
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  #43  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:59 PM
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I forgot where I read it, might have been here on FTE, but I've heard that there is a slight difference between 6.9 and 7.3 injection lines. The slight difference can mess with timing. I'd stick the 6.9 lines on and see if that changes it. I could be wrong though

IDK. Could be, but all the replacement lines are for both engines are the same. If they are different, then wouldn't there be two sets of lines for sale?
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  #44  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:22 PM
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Might be blasphemy, but oilburners does have good info. Screencap is from a post there about the differences between the 6.9 & 7.3
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  #45  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:44 PM
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I guess even if the lines are .060 shorter, I'd assume that all someone would need to do is pull the timing to match the variation in pressure produced by the IP, so that the stroke is matched when it matters. Maybe tinkering down to 3 degree BTDC might in order.
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