Hi all,

Considering getting a 2004 Navigator, but had some questions.

1) One of my favorite features, but also biggest concerns is the air-suspension. Is there an easy way to check that it's functioning properly? Would it throw a warning light of some sort if it wasn't or can you measure the various ride heights etc?

2) My understanding is the 4V DOHC engine from 2003-2004 seems to not have the sparkplug issue that the 3v SOHC engine from Expeditions and 2005+ Navis. Is that the case, and if so, is it generally a more reliable engine, or does it have other severe problems?

The one I'm looking at has just under 150k miles, 2 owner, and always been local here in central NC, doesn't seem to have any rust or major body problems.. Interior is kinda dirty, but no tears, or broken parts..

It's an ultimate with the power running boards and DVD, but no Nav..

What other common problems to check?

 

I can't tell you much about the Intech engines. My buddy that has worked on a few Gen II Navigators has never been too thrilled about them, but I'm sure like anything else, with the proper maintenance they probably run great.

As for the air suspension, there is a "check air suspension" warning that can come up on the dash, but it would be best to drive the car around for a little bit and listen for the compressor to come on while driving. If the suspension is leaking on any one corner it will be noticeable. By the time you factor in tire size variances, tire pressure variances, and other worn suspension components from one to the other you won't be able to measure by height.

With a good scan tool you can check for suspension trouble codes, or you can have a shop do it for you. But keep in mind, these air suspensions are recommended, by Ford, to be replaced every 50k miles. That's the strut and air bag combination. And most people don't replace theirs even at 100k miles, and you can bet this suspension has not been replaced either unless the owner has proof. So really, without having a recently-replaced air suspension you're going to want to replace the stuff sooner or later. They surely don't last forever, so if you are buying a Navigator for the air suspension it wouldn't hurt to be prepared to replaced at least the strut/bag combos. If the bags aren't leaking, the suspension will probably feel at least a little bouncy and that will be a sign of worn struts.

The compressors in these seem to be decent, and if you have to replace it they're not very expensive.

The running boards on these things rot. Southern truck or not, most of these trucks except for a lucky few will have rotted running boards. You won't see them without at least crawling under the car, but you likely won't be able to see the extent of the damage without disassembling the trim attached to the top of them--- which you're not going to be able to do in a short period of time without likely breaking the plastic studs that secure the tread to the metal. It's a "is what it is" situation with those. They'll continue working provided the motors are good, they just may feel like they are literally crumbling under your feet.

Long story longer, with 150k miles don't be under the impression that either of the previous owners kept up on maintenance, and that the truck won't end up needing some decent money over the next few months to straighten out. My 120k mile '06 had never had any suspension parts replaced. I can tell the engine oil was changed frequently (thank God), but no other worn parts were addressed. So I immediately had to replace all 4 front ball-joints which lead to just replacing the entire front control arms, tie rod ends, and sway bar end-links. Even at 120k (more than twice the recommended air suspension replacement interval) the struts are a bit worn so that's what I'm going to tackle later this Winter. Few people really take car of their vehicles so unless you're really lucky and the owner has receipts for more than just oil changes be prepared to replace worn stuff over time. Just look it over thoroughly and drive it on the highway and the city to get a feel for the engine, transmission, and suspension condition. Hope that helps!

 

Thanks

It's replacing a 208k mile 1999 Suburban that had a tree fall on it, and only used infrequently for long family trips, or towing. It drove pretty nice when we had it out. Will get up under the running boards and look with a flashlight
Guess they are designed to retain water somehow?

 

Yeah the underside may not look so bad, but the top can very well be a pile of rusty chunks like mine was. I have no rust elsewhere on the car, but the tops of my running board metal framing was a disaster. They do seem to retain water, and the more they rust, the more loose chunks fall into the passages and prevent water from escaping.... therefore more rust :| I cleaned all of the loose stuff off, which literally removed about 1/3 of the metal of my running boards, so I have to be careful with putting too much weight on them but at least they'll drain out better again.

You can probably get someone to build you some new steel or even aluminum framing for yours, or buy some $1,000 ones on eBay that were custom built with WAYYYY better construction (and fit like stock), in the event yours are a real problem. It probably won't be that bad, and if you don't notice any issues when standing on them I wouldn't bother with repairing them or even disassembling them.

 

They felt perfectly solid even with me @230lb and my dad, who's a bit larger, standing on the same one checking out the roof rack.. I was more worried about the power functions..

Main worry with them was the engine, as my father in law had steered us away from the Ford 5.4 due to the various spark plug issues they had, but since the 32V has a different head I don't see that it has the same problem.

What are some decent sources for the suspension components?

 

Well that's promising at least! Sounds like they might still be nice and solid!

As for the spark plug issue, I wasn't aware that it was only a problem with Tritons, but I honestly wouldn't know any different. The newer style plugs don't separate like the original ones did, so even if the Intech had the same problem and still has original plugs just remove them VERY carefully, with a hot engine and PB blast and all should be good. If it already has the new plugs, there shouldn't be any concern. Again, all of this applies only if the Intech has the same problems.

Suspension component sources varies on what part you need, and what you want to spend. Ebay is a good source for air bag/strut combos, and you can find just about anything else on Amazon and Rock Auto. I prefer to at least look for the part first on Amazon, when applicable, to see the reviews, before buying something aftermarket. Can never go wrong with Motorcraft parts when they are available, but man, do they cost a small fortune.

I've done enough research and purchasing on my '06 so far... if you get this '04 or any other Navigator/Expy and need help figuring out what parts to buy shoot me a PM and I'll point you in the right direction for what I've found to be good or has good reviews.

 

Just looking for the strut/airbag combos you mentioned to see what kind of price ranges they were..

 

Yeah you can find the parts in a few different places, but for brands like Arnott you're going to pay $450-500 per corner for new strut/bag combos. Other places like eBay you'll find other manufacturers selling them for around $300-450 per corner. Definitely plan on $1,200+ or so to do all four corners. Then also comes other parts you may want to consider replacing, such as ball-joints (and/or control arms with new ball-joints), outer tie rod ends, sway bar end-links, etc. You don't have to do everything at once, but if the struts and/or bags need freshened up and you dump all that money into new ones, it's kind of hard to leave the other worn, clunking components in place for much longer. Definitely want to enjoy that new, replacement air suspension you just sunk a bit of money into. Hopefully it doesn't need any of that stuff too soon though.

Thinking about it, another minor issue is the isolator bushings for the air compressor. They're surely shot at 150k miles if they haven't been replaced. I just got some Arnott ones for $20. They just keep the compressor from vibrating the vehicle too much, and when it doesn't vibrate as much you barely hear it running from inside the truck when it fires up.

Maybe someone else can chime in on issues specific to '04 model years and the Intech engine, but other than common suspension, steering, and brake wear items these are pretty durable vehicles. Oh, and if this one has power folding mirrors (not sure if the '04s did) there's a good chance they won't both fold completely in, and/or return completely.

 

Yep, it has the power folding mirrors, 3rd row, and running boards..
Have not tested the power-fold mirror, would be a nice feature but not a big deal.

Where did you find the 50 k interval for the air suspension? I just went through the list up to 150k and it never had anything specific to the air suspension on there.

Per the Carfax it was dealer maintained locally through the first owner until 126k miles..
2nd owner has frequent oil changes reported by an independent shop, and a few other brake/driveability "inspections" whatever that means.. But at least having pretty reliable servicing up to 20k miles ago seems pretty decent.

 

I forget where I saw it from Ford/Lincoln, but in the link below you can see the preview of each manufacturer with the suggested 50k mile replacement:

https://www.google.com/search?q=navi...utf-8&oe=utf-8

The suspension certainly won't last 150k, nor even 100k, without wearing and/or failing. So I guess the omitted suspension replacement interval is just the fact that the suspension wasn't even considered in the manual. Thinking about it, and I could be wrong, I don't know that I recall ANY owners manuals of my previous and current vehicles (mainly Fords) ever mentioning suspension replacement at any interval. I could be wrong though, so take that with a grain of salt.

Definitely comforting knowing that it was dealer-maintained all that time, but it's hard to say if they had anything other than oil changes and/or tire rotations done there. Doesn't really mean that the dealership suggest replacing worn ball joints, worn air suspension, leaky gaskets, transmission flush, etc. and the original owner actually agreed to have any of that done. Would be nice to see the records of what actually WAS done though. Wonder if you can get that from your local dealer somehow?

I guess none of that really matters though if everything seems fine. Just take your time looking things over and putting a little time behind the wheel on it before you decide if it's worth what they're asking, or if it's going to need several hundreds/thousands of dollars worth of work done to fix neglected and/or broken components.

 

Well the manual just has indications to check various components at some interval, but never specifically says to replace said components. Assume it's "check and replace if worn" type deals.

As I said the previous vehicle that served this purpose was a 208kmile 1999 Suburban so we're already 5 years newer and 60k fewer miles than that had...

Some of the records on Carfax indicate more, for instance it shows new brake pads at 108k miles; fuel filter replaced and "induction system serviced" at 118k; power steering fluid at 120k.. and so on.. though nothing related to suspension so who knows.

Visible inspection of the airbags they looked OK (no visible dry rot etc).. who knows.

It's a $60k vehicle that's now 12 years old and offered at 10% its original price (out the door for $6k from the dealer I'm looking)... I know it's not gonna be "like new" just want to avoid a "money pit", and it sounds like overall it's not going to be.

Even if we put $8-10k in one from that age, the same risks are basically there..

Another quesiton... is the Advancetrac using brakes to work like limited slip similar to GM's "Stabilitrak", or like the "torque vectoring" on newer Focus (Focus ST is my daily driver)? I wasn't thrilled when I saw this was open diff, but it does have advancetrac so I'm thinking that was mutually exclusive and perhaps better?

 

Well that's good that some of the details of the services are broken down... I wouldn't have expected that! How did the suspension feel when you drove it? Being a dealership-owned car I would definitely try to spend a little more time looking over things as thoroughly as you can-- they have nothing but time and if they don't have anything to hide they'll let you look it over really well. Check for leaking differential(s), transmission leaks, engine leaks, coolant leaks, cold A/C (should be 40 degrees or colder coming out of the vents at the coldest setting), check for heat, listen for engine noises with the hood up (dismiss injector noises.... but anything else you'll want to inspect closer, check for proper operation of the 4 wheel drive if equipped, etc, etc. I'd literally try every single button in the cabin and make sure everything works.

For just $6k, even an '04 with 150k miles, that price seems a little low..... so that may very well be compensating for things that will need attention in the future.

The AdvanceTrac is more like the first scenario to my understanding. I was disappointed in the same when I learned my 3.73 rear didn't have an LSD.... but a month later I found myself towing about 3,000 lbs up a steep, loose gravel road in 2WD. I wasn't slipping at all, and then put the pedal down and was expecting to do a one-wheel-peel, but the truck just accelerated up the hill at a pretty decent rate with no spinning whatsoever. Was actually pretty impressed. The AdvanceTrac allowed the truck to still accelerate quickly, while not spinning. You can feel the engine cut back power and the brakes doing the work on the rear differential, but didn't feel unusual in any way.

 

Everything felt fine, and everything I checked seemed to work, no unusual rattles or squeaks.

Could definitely tell the difference in the 300HP engine vs the 255hp 5.7 in our Suburban.

Going to look/make decision tonight, so I have a few more things to check over..

I think it's a "deal" because the interior is really dirty... and some of the switches are worn through finish etc. But nothing is torn or broken so I'm pretty confident I can clean it up a lot. It's also a "mom n pop" dealership, no extra fees and so on.. They claim to be making about $400 on it total..

Also it's silver and no chrome wheels, so it doesn't have the same presence that I normally expect from a Navi... Really wish it was a different color, but it's a 3rd vehicle, and the price is right so we'll see..

 

Good to hear everything seemed good mechanically! Yeah if you're like me the first thing you'll be doing to it is vacuuming it thoroughly and giving it a full detail. If you want replacement switches you're better off checking the junk yard, as you won't find used switches cheap on Ebay. I needed a new mirror switch and couldn't find one for less than $60 used on eBay after weeks of waiting, and considering I wouldn't know the condition of it nor how long it might last I just paid $30 more for a new one. So feel free to check eBay first I guess, just in case, but you'll be able to get them cheaper at the junk yard if you can find what you need.

Mine is silver as well, and wish I had waited for a black one. But the silver can look good. Especially if you can find some dark 22" or so wheels for it later. I want to do the Saleen S331 wheels in a graphite color later.... I think that'll look good on the silver paint.

 

Yeah, junkyards would be interesting.. Probably just leave most of those alone as long as they work, and watch for deals as they come along.. Just need to deep clean everything else.

I don't like silver at all on any vehicle really, but for the vacation/rv mule it's not a big deal.. More interested in the cooled seats and comfy ride lol.