--completing the hijack while shreiking allahu akbar--



Since the Dorman topic came up I'll chime in with my recent experience. The collector is cast iron, holes drilled and tapped thru. Pipes are stainless, according to magnet test (known unreliable) but also via acid test (lemon juice did not discolor it) and a quick hit with the grinding wheel threw very little sparks, whereas mild steel will throw plenty. Originally I did not want to hit the pipe with the grinder but, um, I had opportunity. I contacted Dorman and they also said the pipes are SS. Bear in mind the question "what's the material" has two answers, one for each component. So one more time; pipes SS, collector iron. Basically same as IH, but actual grades of material are unknown.

Check out the failed quality control on my collector. See the belly button in the center of the baby cheeks? That stuck up and contacted the turbo flange so the rest of the collector could not sit flush, it rocked around and certainly would have leaked. So had to grind that off, no big deal. Note also the alignment pin. It ain't effin aligned. It's clocked some 5 degrees or so. So the openings for the collector are clocked the same amount in relation to the turbo inlet. I spent a fair amount of time blending that all together. There's a pic from early in that process. Also the collector had a series of sharp ledges inside that also needed some extensive blending. The casting just wasn't pretty and I wished I could extrudehone it, but did as well as I could with tools I had. Another impact of the clocking issue is the arms going out to the pipes are also clocked, making installation even more difficult.

I bought online and between the hassle of returning it plus the challenge to make it work I decided to giterdun. To be sure I could have just slapped it on and got on down the road happy, but for me working the parts into shape was necessary. When I mod my truck it needs to be an actual improvement.

Bottom line for me is Dormans need to be inspected before purchase. It's not top drawer QC and as always, you get what you pay for.

 

Hmmmm... I did not have any of those issues. My pin was perfectly centered, etc... The only 2 things I can say is that everything, especially the iron collector, was full of shavings from the machining process, when it came out of the box. But, since I needed to clean it anyway, for painting, it was no big deal. I do agree that the casting can have some rough/sharp edges, that could be cleaned up/ported, if you are after max performance, but I did very little/none to mine; due to time constraints. It works fine.

The link I posted was for Advance Auto. If there is a problem with one, you always just take it back to a physical store, even if ordered online.

Like I said, I think the massive cost savings, vs any other options, makes it well worth it.

 

I recently used the Dorman uppipes. The "finish" wasn't so much

About 15-20mins with a die grinder on the collector and I'm very satisfied. If I didn't have the tool to do that, I wouldn't have been.

Fit and function are great, no problems.

But...it's your dime and your time. Some people like to waste too much on iphone, imacs, i-whatevers too. LOL!

But seriously, use whatever you want. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the current version of Dorman uppipes. I think I paid about $150 a few months back.

I can't offer much in the way of advice for converting E99 to L99, but once you get here...

 

Heck yeah!

 

I remember in the '60's when highways were littered with exhaust system parts that had fallen off of vehicles, artifacts of automotive roadkill as common as thrown tire alligators from big trucks are today. It was mildly entertaining to watch the other cars playing involuntary foosball with a dropped muffler, while simultaneously trying to avoid the danger.

You already know where I'm going with this.

The 1970's ushered in new emissions requirements, and with them, longer emissions warranties. To meet these mandated warranty periods, manufacturers had to switch from untreated low carbon steel to stainless steel. Along the way, alternatives such as hot dipped aluminized steel have been tried, but by and large, today's factory exhaust systems are almost universally 400 series stainless.

For an industry well known to pinch the copper out of a penny... especially so with domestic brands like Ford, GM, and Dodge... the switch to stainless says quite a bit about the projected longevity of non stainless exhaust systems, even to those too young to remember having to buy muffler tape at the auto parts store.

Probably too soon to tell how long the carbon steel Dorman up pipes will last, as most people who crow about the money they've saved have only had them for five years or less. Once these Dorman installations rack up 15-16 years of service (like my stock uppipes), that will get my attention.

In the meantime, I'd rather not fail to learn from history. I know carbon steel exhaust components rust... not just on the exterior surfaces that people paint, but from the inside out, due to condensation and the exposure to the chemical cocktail entrained in exhaust gasses acting on metal that is expanding and contracting from an extreme amplitude of thermal cycling.

OEM's provide ample and unlimited evidence that 400 series stainless lasts longer in these conditions, and OEMs won't spend a dime more than necessary, especially on parts that are not seen nor touched by the consumer. Those lessons have already been learned, decades ago. I'm not about to pay to relearn them the hard way, even if final exam is a long ways off.

If you trade your truck out every five years, it doesn't really matter. But given the current choices and costs in newer trucks today, I can't see any reason to change. Hence the parts I install will be selected based on predicted longevity. And the industry points to a pretty safe prediction that stainless up pipes will last longer than non-stainless.

 

...and a decent car was around $1000.

The same class car today is about $20k+ How much is a Catalytic converter, purchased through the OEM with dealer certified installation?

Sometimes paying more is better for quality. But there is a limit, IMHO. The ROI on a 3x priced item stretches out pretty far

 

What is your source for this number ($1,000.00)?

I don't remember cars being that cheap back then. We paid that much for a totally wrecked 1963 Impala with the trunk completely "impaled" after a drunk driver crashed into it. That Impala was so long through, we just didn't use the back half of it. To comply with the law, we stuck a couple of trailer lights on the back of the carnage, and drove it anyway... daily.

Heck, thirty years prior, Ford charged up to $1,400 for a Model A Town Car, and that was in 1931. But since my memory of the 1960's is cloudy, given all that was going on back then, I'm going to Google the average cost of a car in 1960. Here's Google's summary result:

"In 1960 the average cost of new car was $2,600.00 and by 1969 was $3,270.00."

Now, I'm going to google the relative value of $1, compared to the dollar's inflationary equivalent in 2016. The first result, from $DollarTimes, is:

$1.00 in 1960 = $8.04 in 2016, 3.79% annual inflation, 704.51% cumulative inflation.

Back to the cars... $3,270 (1969) minus $2,600 (1960) equals $670 (inflationary rise during the 60's) divided by 2 (to derive the median) plus $2,600 (to arrive at the median) equals $2,935.00 average price of a car in 1965.

To see if this simple math estimate drifts from historical prices of cars, we can spot check the 1965 Impala, which ranged from a low of $2,779.00 to a high of $3,742.00, which confirms the previously derived $2,935 median as reasonable.

Back to the value of a 1960 dollar, except now we will center on a 1965 dollar, because now we are working with a 1965 automobile average price. Adjusting for the 4 years of inflation between 1960 and 1965, a dollar in 1965 would be equivalent to $7.58 in 2016.

And finally, the moment of truth: $2,935 (median price of car in 1965) times $7.58 (today's dollar equivalent) equals $22,247.30.

The numbers do not seem to support the notion that the price of cars went up by $19,000 between the 60's and today due to things like upgrading the exhaust system from low carbon to stainless steel. Like the price of houses, food, clothing, and everything else, inflation is likely the cause of the lionshare of the price increase.

 

Umm, somebody's a math nerd....

Just think. I n the time it took you to do those calculations, you could have ordered a set Dorman up-pipes...

Seriously though; most of these trucks are nearer the end of their lives, then the beginning; much like many owners...... Up-pipes that last 15 years are meaningless on a truck that likely won't be around that long.

Regardless of engine durability, the rest of the truck was never meant to be a million mile long haul piece of machinery. Maybe you'll still have yours, maybe not. Regardless, statistically speaking, more and more of these things are going to start going to the scrap yard. Granted, in many cases, it won't be because of a totally dead 7.3L, but rather the cumulative costs and aggravation of more and more failed chassis parts and and other components ( along with rust), combined with perhaps a tired ( but still functioning) engine in need of a few expensive sensors or parts, etc..... It will be death by a thousand cuts.

I'm not saying its time to give up on the truck yet. But, a realistic cost vs benefit analysis is called for. In that case, the Dormans are the clear winner here.

 

There you go messing up my post with a bunch of facts!

I know the adjusted for inflation process and such, but specially to exhaust, there is a TON of costs involved with emissions and testing and maintenance and such.

My Dormans are still a lot cheaper than IH uppipes. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

I gotta run and get this 1991 Ford 7.5L gasser Motorhome to run. It goes no-start without warning and I'm getting frustrated with it.

So my comments above are just loose, not meant to be smart alec or anything. I know quality counts, too

 

Well...no Dorman's here for the reasons stated in favor of going IH. Another thing to consider...I know that we are now using 'low sulfur' fuel but...one of the byproducts of burning diesel (and coal) is sulfur dioxide (SO2). One thing about SO2 is that it mixes readily (no catalyst needed) with water (H20) to create H2SO4 (sulfuric acid). Now I know that we're not running water through our trucks, per se, but it water is everywhere and sulfuric acid will eat through a lot of stuff, particularly in the long term.

 

A few things to consider here.

First and foremost: Chinese steel products, in my personal experience (chain, pipe, other products), are woefully sub-standard to other steels - stainless or not. Our company has a fixed policy - thou shalt not buy Chinese chain. Japanese, sure... but Made in USA is our preferred chain (Timken and Diamond). This is not a small matter - the price difference is substantial, when you buy 1,810 feet of 2080NP chain for just one of our many machines (not a typo). We save money when we go with the better quality at a higher price, because frequent replacement is bad juju.

How easy is it to replace the up pipes or fix a leak with the engine/transmission in place? Is this something you want to do more than once?

I bought IH bellowed ups and two new OEM manifolds in the first year I owned Stinky (2010). Those manifolds have thick crusty rust, but the ups still look good. I don't recall the Dorman bellowed ups being around as long as my exhaust system, so no matter how many people have them and like them - we still don't know where this is going.

 

I might get lucky, I see a set of up pipes on Craig's List and am awaiting data on them. After reading through firefighter's write up I see a tidbit on a ccv to turbo tube in the mix. Do I need to pick up a piece of intake tubing there? And will there be any issues with my down pipe connecting to the turbo with the updated set up?

 

Are the bellowed International up pipes on the busses you've been looking at interchangeable with how you want to modify your early 99?

 

The first bus I bought did not have bellowed up pipes and I do not know if these other ones have them or not. The standard up pipes from that short bus should be a fit though.

 

Ah... the short bus was on an E-Series chassis, right?

Well, those long busses at auction that you are looking at now, Mark the Shark, have blue painted engines I'll bet. Meaning that they are International branded T444e's (on the conventional cab versions). And those all have bellowed up pipes. I know, because I watched those engines being built at Navistar's engine plant in 2001.

Riffraff charges what, $539 for IH Upipes rattle canned black?

You could take that $539, plus shipping, and instead buy a bus for $277, have it delivered for $300, and have an extra engine to go along with your genuine International bellowed up pipes. Plus a sellable transmission, heavy duty rear end, several tons of scrap metal, and a bunch of seats.

My only concern is the fact that the E99 is different than the L99, and I'm not sure exactly what all you are doing to convert your E99.