05 Navi runs like crap -- hard to pin down why - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums



05 Navi runs like crap -- hard to pin down why

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 03-24-2016, 01:46 AM
JeffHWV JeffHWV is offline
New User
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6
JeffHWV is starting off with a positive reputation.
05 Navi runs like crap -- hard to pin down why

I have 05 Navi with 5.4L-3V motor, 131K miles on it. New fuel and air filters, spark plugs done at 110K with new Motorcraft plugs and all 4 O2 sensors around the same time, also Motorcraft. This truck has been taken extremely good care of. Looks new inside and out, and I have changed the oil religiously since I bought it at 61K. A couple of months ago it started missing like a COP going bad but very seldom, but at the same time it has no ***** over the whole rpm range all the time and mileage is off about 2 MPG. Sometimes it briefly hesitates on the start like the throttle body isn't even opening and then when it does take off, it surges on acceleration. There is no CEL and I have hooked it up to my scanner a few different times with zero codes. I have a lot more experience with the 2V engines and have experienced the dying COP syndrome a handful of times and know it has to get pretty bad to set off the light. I carry an extra COP with me but haven't decided to play the musical COP game as I don't think it could run this lousy without getting any codes if it were one. I did have to put an injector in a couple of years ago and it acted just like a dying COP but it came and went. I have considered buying 8 new COPS and then maybe 8 new injectors as I plan on keeping it a long time and know I will probably have to buy at least the COPS anyway, but the cam phaser BS makes me hesitant to throw parts at it. It idles smooth as glass so I don't know if it could be a cam phaser problem but it does make a noise at idle that sounds like loose guts in the catalytic converter on the passenger side. I put my ear right up to the cat when cold though and it is not that. Sounds more like something at the back of the right side head. What it has cost me extra in gas the last couple of months would have given me a good start on the COPS and/or injectors and is very frustrating. Any info or tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-24-2016, 07:55 AM
JWA's Avatar
JWA JWA is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Reynoldsburg, Ohio
Posts: 10,206
JWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputationJWA has a superb reputation
What's the fuel pressure at idle and WOT?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-22-2016, 01:49 AM
JeffHWV JeffHWV is offline
New User
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6
JeffHWV is starting off with a positive reputation.
I've been going to follow up on this for a long time now, can't believe it's been almost 2 months.

I had my fuel pressure test rig temporarily mounted to a piece of machinery I was having trouble with for a few weeks after this post so had to wait until I was sure it was fixed until I could take if off. Guess I should have looked first as all that time went by only to find out there is no Shrader valve on these engines.

In the meantime, I ordered a set of coil boots and springs and installed them. That fixed the low end miss, however, I still don't think the engine is running right. I bought a cheap ELM Bluetooth reader and downloaded the free Torque app on my phone but could not get a reading for fuel pressure. Maybe you have to pay for the full version for fuel pressure? Still no CEL, and the parameters I could read, what I could make of them, seem normal. I bought one of those spacer blocks for the FPS with the 1/8" pipe thread port and gauge. Fuel pressure reads 30-35 psi at every throttle position, although you can get it to spike up to 40 psi and down to 25 psi when you rev and let off of it several times. This is normal, right?

The engine doesn't run terrible but at times is quite logy in the low rpms. I'm still down at least 2mpg from normal. The ticking noise from the right side of the engine has become more regular with the rotation of the engine. It almost seems like it is coming from the injectors but seems too loud to be them and not loud enough to be any timing chain or valve-train noise. Wouldn't any VCT problems throw a code? I did get a "check automatic throttle control" on the message center one time a couple of weeks ago, but I had that one other time about 3 years ago. I bought a new TPS at the time but never installed it as it never happened again. Wouldn't that also throw the TPS code if the TPS and the throttle pedal pot don't agree with each other? I've been looking at a full set of Bosch injectors to replace the Siemens ones it has. I've already lost one for sure a couple of years back. Might be worth the $250-300 for the peace of mind and to eliminate that as the problem and/or ticking noise. Thanks, Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-24-2016, 09:38 AM
JP3's Avatar
JP3 JP3 is online now
Senior User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 166
JP3 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Torque Pro or FORScan (similar to Torque but Ford specific) are really really good tools to track down drivability problems. Log data, then analyze what the engine/PCM is doing to cause the problem. I upload logs to datazap.me | Fast, Free, Interactive Datalogs to view them.

As the weather got warmer, my truck became gutless when the intake air temps got high. After logging data for a while, it became clear that the PCM was pulling a ton of timing at low rpm because the IMRC actuator was inoperative. I'm talking pulling it back to 10 degrees AFTER TDC. This was an existing condition that the truck had when I bought it, but since I bought it in the winter, it was not nearly as noticeable. It had a permanent P2006 code set that did not light a CEL and would not show up in my inexpensive Actron scanner. (Torque and FORScan both showed it) As a test, I grounded the monitor wire that goes from the PCM to the actuator to make the PCM think the actuator is stuck open and the truck ran correctly when warm/hot. I have since ordered an actuator and will replace it at some point, but for now it continues to run very good.

This may not be your problem, but my point is really that the apps are very powerful tools that can be used to nail down what is going on without chunking a bunch of parts at it hoping it will fix it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-07-2016, 01:15 AM
JeffHWV JeffHWV is offline
New User
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6
JeffHWV is starting off with a positive reputation.
Hey thanks a ton for the reply. I didn't know these engines had that setup in them.
Since I already had it, first thing I did was put in the TPS and cleaned the throttle body, which was fairly clean. I drove it about 20 miles late at night (gets cool here in the mountains) and thought that fixed it. Wrong.

After doing a little reading about the IMRC system, I thought I'd try Seafoaming the manifold, thinking maybe the plates may just be hanging up or not closing all the way. Upon starting after letting the Seafoam soak, I got a flashing CEL briefly and got some smoke, not a lot. Then I drove the snot out of it for about 20 miles I am now very acquainted with the rev limiter and am fairly certain my blades are opening as it feels like a turbo spooling up around 3500 rpm. Still no codes with both my Auto X-ray scanner and my Harbor Freight one (the most expensive hand held with ABS). Odd, seeing the CEL flashed a few times upon start up. I used the HF scanner to monitor the PIDs that showed up, only 11 of them. Only ones I could make sense of were Temps and throttle positions, rpms, and speed. They looked accurate.

I have driven it about 50 miles since And it seems to be a little better but still sluggish on the low end. The true test is the intersection at the end of my road. It ends after about a 2 mile downgrade where I never touch the throttle, then I have to pull a slight incline to get out on the main road. Usually it just bogs to an idle, and takes about 3-5 seconds before any increase in rpm. Haven't went that way yet.

In researching more about the imrc/cmcv system, I just found your thread on bangshift and it was super informative. As soon as I get a chance I am going to test the CMCV using the diagnostic info you posted over there. After reading that, I guess it is possible that if the blades were partially operative, which I am pretty sure they are, they could still be causing problems without throwing a code.

I know not being adept at using the scanners is not helping me. I could only get a few PIDs on the ELM/Torque lite setup also, the ones above, plus the O2 sensor data which, what I could make of it seemed ok.

Does the Torque Pro app monitor more PIDs, or is it just a fancier version? I would have already paid for it if it worked on Apple but have to get a Play-store card as I don't want to give Google my credit card info if I can help it. Also, does the FORScan app work with the ELM adapters? I see it works on Apple and would rather go that way as my iPad is alot easier to see than my android phone. Thanks again, Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-07-2016, 09:41 AM
JP3's Avatar
JP3 JP3 is online now
Senior User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 166
JP3 is starting off with a positive reputation.
FORScan does work with the ELM adapter. It works quite well and comes with most of the Ford PIDs preprogrammed. It will do everything Torque Pro will. The only drawback is the gauge part is not as user configurable, but that is a minor issue really.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-16-2016, 12:17 AM
JeffHWV JeffHWV is offline
New User
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6
JeffHWV is starting off with a positive reputation.
I went to test the IMRC actuator, wire colors were wrong. I ordered the factory manuals found out Navi/Expy wire colors are different but pins are the same. I tested it on vehicle and thought it was bad so I ordered a new one from Ford along with intake gasket set. I got an iOS compatible ELM unit and the Forscan app. Monitored a whole bunch of Parameters along with the IMRC ones and it is definitely not bad. Every time the IMRC is commanded on, the IMRC monitor responds correctly. I must have screwed up when testing it at the PCM.

What is happening is every time the throttle is depressed even a little bit, the PCM is commanding the IMRC on and retarding the timing. Forscan gave me a whole bunch of codes none of the others did, all related to the electronic throttle control. I monitored all those and they seem ok although there was about a 1 volt discrepancy between two of the throttle pedal signals. There are 3, btw. Two have the voltage decrease and one has the voltage increase as the pedal is operated. The two that go the same way are off by about one volt. They do seem to rise and fall steadily as the throttle is depressed. Don't know if they were set before I replaced the TPS. Again knowing how to analyze the data is important as getting the data itself.

Good news I probably don't have to pull the intake. Bad news is I don't know what the hell is causing the problem along with spending $200 on parts I don't need. Would be nice to know all the inputs that contribute to deciding when to command the IMRC and open the runners. If this goes on long enough, I'll end up junking it before I get it fixed.
Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
05 Expy sputter and slugish bbdano Expedition & Navigator 2 09-19-2016 07:39 PM
2006 Expedition EB P0351 2006expedition Expedition & Navigator 3 12-08-2015 09:50 PM
2000 6.8 V10 - Half Dead? BigDaddyTHX1138 Modular V10 (6.8l) 5 10-16-2014 10:15 AM
Flat Spot in acceleration Gregs Toyz 2004 - 2008 F150 0 05-24-2011 04:26 PM
Cops? Cops? Cops? murraydav Modular V8 (4.6L, 5.4L) 14 08-16-2008 05:22 PM


Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums >

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:10 PM.


This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.