When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I was just thinking that is a nasty looking mess. Could the PO
or did you get it new? Anyway could the PO used tap water with
a lot of dissolved solids caused this?
The BEST way to get that crap out of there will cost a bit.
But it will save money in the long run. Right tool for the job.
Take it to a radiator shop and have them clean it. They have a system that will clean
the crud out. They can also do the oil to coolant cooler for the trans.
Not that you need the trans cooler done. But if it included may as well.
What's odd is that pic was the upper hose outlet at the radiator connection
I looked at the lower hose radiator outlet port wasn't even close to as dirty as the upper port was I mean if I was to compare the two the lower port was spotless compared to upper port
Looks like the majority of the junk maybe in the radiator
And I'm not really flushing it out in massive amounts like I had hoped
Do you know about what a shop would charge to clean that radiator Sean
I have not had to do one, I guess I have been lucky in nearly 40 years
years of driving and working on cars I have not had the problem. But
dad was a insistent on keeping things clean.
I would think that a pumping with a reversing system along with air injection and hot
chemicals would start to cut that crud. The trick is what the crud can be dissolved by
without causing any damage to the raditor core and you will also want to do the heater core.
The worry about a DIY system is over pressurizing the radiator and popping an end cover.
On the ∆ (delta) temps have you tried to back flush the cooler to see if that crud has
not setup and gotten hard yet?
Old school radiator and heater core cleaning was done with muriatic acid. Its cheap and very effective! Get a gallon jug of it, pull your rad out and plug the bottom up. Fill it with the acid and water and let it set for awhile. Then flush with high pressure garden hose and you will be amazed what comes out!
The compound that he needs to remove is not dissolved with
acid. It happens to be a base soluble. Acid might even make is harder.
Then there is stuff like aluminum and I am not sure how much is in
the stock radiator. Acid washout was for the older brass type radiators.
This might be a little too far off the track but the info is interesting and has
some relevance to the discussion. WATER | smallengineinformation.com
The flowing test is from the above link.
WATER
IN THIS SECTION, YOU WILL FIND THE FOLLOWING SUBSECTIONS:
CLEANING A COOLING SYSTEM
LIQUID COOLED RADIATORS
WATER JACKETS
SCALE BUILDUP AND MAKEUP WATER
RUST AND ACID FLUSHING
SILICATE DROPOUT AND SCA
RADIATOR HOSES
WATER COOLED ENGINES
THERMOSTATS
FANS
RADIATORS
WATER PUMPS
ANTIFREEZE
CLEANING A COOLING SYSTEM
Older cooling systems have sediment, rust, and dirt being carried through system by coolant. These impurities can lodge in tubes of radiator, blocking coolant flow and leading to overheating.
To clean cooling system, use cleaner specified by engine’s manufacturer. Place adid cleaner into system, and allow to circulate for five minutes. Let engine cool. Drain fluids from cooling system by opening drain petcock at base of radiator.
Next, close petcock and add a neutralizer and water solution to radiator. Start engine and wait five minutes. Shut off engine and allow to cool.
Drain all neutralizer and water from system. Reverse flush radiator and engine block.
To clean radiator, carry out following procedures:
1)Screw radiator cap on tightly.
2)Remove upper and lower radiator hose connections.
3)Install special section radiator hose to upper and lower connections. Radiator hose for upper connection should be long enough to clear engine, but not long enough to provide excess resistance to flushing. Bottom hose should be very short.
4)Attach flushing nozzle to bottom radiator hose and flush water through radiator.
5)Repeat operation until water coming out top hose is clean and free of sediment.
To clean engine block, carry out following steps:
1)Remove thermostat housing and thermostat.
2)Reassemble thermostat housing on block and attach a flushing nozzle to upper radiator hose leading to the thermostat housing.
3)Partially restrict lower hose connection so that cylinder block fills with water.
4)Flush water through system and out the bottom hose.
5)Repeat procedure until water emerging from bottom hose is completely clean.
6)If cleaning agent used, remove block drain plugs and flush block with clean water. This ensures that all cleaner out of system.
7)Reinstall thermostat, radiator hoses, and housing. Use a new gasket.
8)Operate the system for a few minutes until all the air is out of it, then check the coolant level in the radiator. Add more coolant as needed.
The radiator and engine block can also be pressure cleaned, but this is best left to specialists. The radiator can be seriously damaged by this procedure if it’s performed incorrectly, so you should consult a radiator specialist if you haven’t been formally trained to perform pressure flushing of a radiator.
LIQUID COOLED RADIATORS
Typical radiator core consists of water carrying tubes and fins set at right angles to tubes. Radiator will also have coolant drain valve at bottom. If properly taken care of, radiator will normally last the life of engine.
Thin radiator fins can be easily damaged. Fins can also trap plant material and dirt, which will reduce amount air flowing past fins. Routine inspection of radiator is necessary, especially after applications in dry grass with lots wind borne debris. Often, leaking engine oil finds way down to radiator and attracts dirt. Mud slowly builds up over time, blocking air flow through fins, but is often overlooked during maintenance. Pressure washers commonly used to clean caked on oil and dirt from between fins. If not handled correctly, pressure spray may pack debris in tighter, aggravating overheating problem. After cleaning the outside tubes, should direct compressed air through one side of radiator while checking airflow on other side. May need to remove radiator and have it hot tanked for final cleaning.
Interferences to heat transfer can come from inside radiator. Over time, cast iron engine block may oxidize or corrode. Sediment from oxidation collects and forms mud at bottom both engine block and radiator. Old coolants should be changed on schedule. If coolant left in too long, will begin to lose its antioxidant properties that prevent formation rust. Thus more mud will form and collect at bottom of radiator, interfering with flow of coolant. Mud buildup can be easily cleaned out by removing radiator’s lower hose to flush the lower radiator tube. Once radiator is clean, hose can be reattached and radiator filled with new coolant.
THERMOSTATS
Thermostat critical to operation cooling system. Defective thermostat can cause engine to overheat. Can test thermostat to find its opening temperature by suspending it by string in a pot of water. Heat water gradually on hot plate or other controllable heat source, and note temperature at which thermostat begins to open. Continue heating water, careful not to let thermostat touch sides or bottom of pan, and note temperature at which thermostat fully open. If doesn’t open fully at specified operating temperature, replace thermostat.
WATER JACKETS
Problems with heat transfer occur with water jackets in cylinder head and engine block. Scale, rust, and silicate gel reduce heat transfer from cylinder walls to water jackets. Excess heat can thin and oxidize oil in cylinders, leading to pistons getting scuffed from lack lubrication. Poor heat transfer may lead to cracked cylinder blocks and heads.
SCALE BUILDUP AND MAKEUP WATER
Water jacket could be polluted by scale buildup from minerals dissolved in makeup water. Tap water contains calcium and magnesium salts that form scale coatings in the water jacket. Scale can be eliminated by never adding tap water as makeup water. A 5/32 inches of scale reduces heat transfer by 40 percent. Excess heat will have to leave engine via exhaust system rather than through cooling system. This raises exhaust temperature, increases oil oxidation on cylinder walls and valve guides. Increased oil oxidation decreases service life engine. Avoid adding minerals that can form scale by using only deionized or distilled water to dilute antifreeze.
RUST AND ACID FLUSHING
Another problem involving water jackets is rust. When anti rust additives in coolant exhausted, water jackets start to rust. Rust lowers ability gray cast iron to conduct heat. Engine wear accelerates when cooling system can’t conduct heat away. Both rust and scale can be removed by acid flushing. Acid flush can be bought at auto parts store. Follow directions carefully and don’t leave acid solution in longer than recommended. A neutralizer always included with acid flush. Properly neutralize water jacket to prevent continued oxidation of components such as hoses, radiator, and water pump. Oxalic acid radiator flush commonly recommended to flush cooling systems, but acid can cause injuries if precautions not taken. Be sure wear appropriate safety equipment, and have safety shower and eye wash station adjacent to service area.
SILICATE DROPOUT AND SCA
Third problem with water jackets involves silicon silicate gel dropout. This when gelatinous precipitate forms in cylinder area of water jackets and in ports of cylinder head, considered engine hot spots. Precipitate acts as barrier to heat flowing from metal surfaces to coolant and raises combustion temperatures. Silicate dropout can occur when silicate concentration in antifreeze exceeds recommended levels. Antifreeze manufacturers blend their products for specific types engines. Blend for gasoline engine different from blend for diesel. Cooling system in gasoline engine has more aluminum components that need greater oxidation protection to prevent corrosion. Antifreeze for gasoline engine may have higher concentration silicate included as oxidation inhibitor. Most antifreeze producers use silicone silicate stabilizer to prevent silicate from dropping out. Operator might accidentally include too much silicate containing supplemental coolant additives or SCAs in diesel engine’s coolant. Too much SCA can result in too much silicate and increase in silicate dropout. To help prevent dropout, follow engine manufacturer’s recommendations on SCA additions, and use coolant with ASTM D-4985 or SAE J 1941 designation. Coolants with these designations designed for diesel engines, have lower initial silicate levels.
RADIATOR HOSES
Radiator hose failure usually detected by feeling for soft, swollen, or mushy spots on hose surface. Oxidation of inside and outside surfaces of hose deteriorates rubber, reduces hose life. Keeping rubber radiator hoses free of oils will increase their life. Ozone exposure may cause surface cracking of hoses, but shouldn’t lead to hose failure. If hose quality, surface cracking will normally stop when crack reaches fabric reinforcement.
Inferior radiator hoses shouldn’t be installed, especially on bottom outlet tube. Bottom radiator hose has to withstand high vacuums created by water pump, and should have inside it a heavy spring to stop hose from collapsing. Wrong bottom hose will lead to coolant blockage at high temperatures. Coolant cavitation can occur on water pump impeller, causing enough damage to lower coolant volume. Always use radiator hoses that meet manufacturer’s specifications.
WATER COOLED ENGINES
Water or coolant is mixture of water and antifreeze with rust inhibitors. This type cooling system utilizes both conduction and convection.
Heat in water cooled engine transferred from combustion area in three ways. One third is converted into horsepower. Another third carried away with exhaust gases. Remaining third absorbed and carried away by lubrication system and coolant.
Hottest areas of engine surround cylinders. Most heat concentrated in metal that makes up combustion chambers. These parts surrounded by water jacket, through which coolant flows. Metal absorbs heat from engine, transfers to coolant via conduction.
Coolant constantly circulated by water pump. Eventually, coolant gets hot. To remove heat, coolant passes through radiator. Radiator composed of chamber with number of vanes. Stream of air forced over radiator by fan. Heat carried away from radiator by this air. Fan driven by belt from crankshaft. Same belt also drives water pump, located directly behind fan. Some models, fan battery powered.
Once in block, coolant normally flows from front to back. Water jackets in block surround cylinders, allowing heat to be conducted into coolant.
Thermostat and bypass connection designed to maintain constant operating temperature in engine. Thermostat prevents coolant from circulating into radiator until coolant reaches sufficiently high temperature. Otherwise cooling system would overcool engine. Bypass allows coolant to keep recirculating through engine until temperature reaches pre established level, sufficient to open thermostat.
After coolant passes through water jackets surrounding cylinders, flows upward through holes in head gasket, cools cylinder head and valves. Leaks often develop in this gasket. These leaks either internal, into combustion chamber or crankcase, or external, out into atmosphere. Gaskets designed so align with cylinder head and engine block. After coolant flows around combustion chamber and valves, passes into radiator through thermostat.
Thermostat designed to open when coolant reaches approximately 180 degrees F to 195 degrees F (82 degrees C to 90 degrees C). Below this temperature, remains closed and coolant flows through bypass port below thermostat and back down to water pump. Pump then recirculates coolant through engine.
When thermostat opens, coolant flows through and into tank on end of radiator. From here coolant flows through tubes to tank on other end of radiator. These tubes connected to cooling fins that conduct heat from water to air. Airflow from fan carries heat away from cooling fins. Cooled water from second tank recirculated by the pump back into engine jacket.
THERMOSTATS
Cold engines or those under light loads don’t require full cooling system. Purpose of thermostat to regulate temperature of coolant flowing through system.
Most thermostats activated by a pellet of copper impregnated wax. Housing containing the wax pellet exposed to the coolant, and wax expands as coolant increases in temperature. This moves a diaphragm assembly, which moves a piston upward. The piston opens valve and allows coolant to flow through thermostat.
Temperature rating of thermostat is temperature at which it begins to open. Choice of temperature rating of thermostat depends largely on operating conditions of engine and ambient temperature of environment in which it’s to be used.
If thermostat doesn’t close properly, engine always runs cool. Can greatly affect performance.
Thermostat critical to operation cooling system. Defective thermostat can cause engine to overheat. Can test thermostat to find its opening temperature by suspending it by string in a pot of water. Heat water gradually on hot plate or other controllable heat source, and note temperature at which thermostat begins to open. Continue heating water, careful not to let thermostat touch sides or bottom of pan, and note temperature at which thermostat fully open. If doesn’t open fully at specified operating temperature, replace thermostat.
FANS
Purpose of fan to direct stream of air through radiator. Fans usually mounted on water pump shaft, driven by belt from a pulley on crankshaft unless driven by battery. Fans usually made of lightweight plastic or aluminum. These materials allow fan to change shape as engine rpm increases. Blades flatten out, drawing less horsepower from engine.
RADIATORS
Radiators transfer heat from coolant to atmosphere through conduction and convection. Most radiators contain reserve of coolant in top tank. Reserve makes up for loss through leakage and overflow.
Typical radiator consists of upper tank, core, and lower tank. Upper tank is inlet that receives coolant from engine. Is an overflow line located at neck of upper tank. It leads from point above filler cap neck. Purpose of overflow line to allow coolant to escape if radiator overfilled or if heat expands coolant. Cap of radiator equipped with pressure release valve, prevents excess pressure from building in cooling system due to overheating. Coolant released from valve as steam.
Most modern water cooled systems pressurized. Coolant constantly under pressure greater than atmospheric pressure. This raises temperature at which coolant will boil, preventing system from unnecessarily running over. System pressurized approximately 4 to 12 psi.
Core of radiator is small tubes running through hundreds of thin fins. Fins increase surface area of radiator, increasing heat transferred to atmosphere.
WATER PUMPS
Virtually all water pumps impeller type. Impeller press fitted onto a steel shaft. Drive pulley is at other end of shaft. Shaft supported by double row ball bearing assembly in pump housing.
These generally sealed bearings requiring no maintenance. Some cases, grease fitting in housing used to lubricate bearings. Water kept from bearing by a seal. On many pumps, ceramic insert cemented to impeller. Seal assembly spring loaded, constantly pushing against ceramic insert. Often, contacting surface of seal also ceramic.
Most water pumps replaced as unit.
ANTIFREEZE
Antifreeze is mixed with water to prevent freezing in cold climates, and reduce likelihood of boil over in warmer climates. Boil over occurs when antifreeze reaches boiling point, overflows, and leaks from radiator through cap or overflow hose. Antifreeze contains high percentage ethylene glycol and rust and leak inhibitors. Many brands also contain lubricant for water pump. If engine is run without antifreeze, rust inhibitor should be mixed with the water.
The comments about SCA got me thinking would would of happened if the PO of Benny's truck used a
SCA treatment package that was not meant for the 6.0L. Would it drop out by the buck full in the top
tank of the radiator? That is one of the three places where the flow is restricted and you also get a rapid
change in the temp. All of this is just speculation on the how it happened. The problem is how to eliminate
it from the radiator and the rest of the system without giving Benny any more of a headache than he already has.
Looks like the back flush at the coolant exit port helped
I didn't drive it far enough to be 100% certain but from what I saw it had the ability to cool oil
When the load wasn't as high the EOT would drop like it should
I need to drive further at the sustained speed of 65mph
SO I read thru all that and I didn't catch a name of cleaner or Neutralizer
It also said to pull the radiator But it didn't specify to Flip it when out during the flush process
if it don't have to be flipped Id leave it installed in truck to try a flush
I cant find that part number for Futomo Drain valve for Block it has to go in I only want to pull my starter one more time
Ill change the oil cooler in the end again if I have to
There was something in what I was reading in that or before that said more or less to
have the outlet be the inlet during the flush. The stuff you want is the Restore and not
the Restore Plus. That being said it could be that the Restore Plus might be the neutralizer.
I would need some to check but Restore may be a alkaline where Restore Plus is an acid
for cleaning iron and scale. Also muriatic acid is a bit harsh for todays cooling systems that
have a greater mix of soft metals. Oxalic acid is not as harsh but still needs to be used with
a good does of cation. It does very well at removing metals fast.
Benny I found the comment I was remembering below in red.
1)Screw radiator cap on tightly.
2)Remove upper and lower radiator hose connections.
3)Install special section radiator hose to upper and lower connections. Radiator hose for upper
connection should be long enough to clear engine, but not long enough to provide excess resistance
to flushing. Bottom hose should be very short. 4)Attach flushing nozzle to bottom radiator hose and flush water through radiator.
5)Repeat operation until water coming out top hose is clean and free of sediment.
Anyway how is the ∆ doing right now? Hot it still in the happy zone. My thoughts are that right
now while you have most trapped in the upper tank and have back flushed the crus out of the oil
cooer is may be that you won't need a oil cooler if you just do the radiator and heater core. I would
pull the connections for the heater core and blow the heater core out in reverse direction into a bucket
and see if there happens to be any crud in the bucket after that. Who knows there may not be any
crud stuck in the heater core. May save a little money but checking is in order.
I didn't pay attention to this thread as I thought it was about pricing and this past weekend was about extended family get together around a wedding.
I came to same conclusion around 2010 that if you go through changing out an oil cooler it would be prudent to change out the radiator and probably the heater core too. The pricing vs work involved doing it over makes it cost effective to me.
The silicate drop out from my literature readings occurred around high temps, the cauldron that the oil cooler is. When it collects after that can be in any small passage or point of settling during shutdown. When I experimented with the congealed material from Karl's cooler I could not get it to dissolve to the extent to the point I thought would be able to resolve a system issue. And I tried not only both Resolve products, but other retail Chems as well. It just seems to crosslink to the point of not breaking down.
There were a number of diesel owners that experienced reclogging despite either extremely good cleaning methods or no cleaning at all. While with no cleaning it is easily concluded that clogging materials were not removed, there also were two people who had done full, good flushes and still had a second replacement cooler clog, a situation where truck burning starts to sound reasonable. Very rare, but it did occur, and developed my conclusion of replacing all wetted heat exchangers.
As far as other acids being used for cleaning, I didn't go there as I did not want to promote future radiator failure stressing the aluminum, rubber sealing or removing the plasticizer from the tanks. It's not the radiators manufacture to utilize materials that would not react to cleaning products, but the cleaning products manufacturers responsibility to follow industry trends in materials selection. Way out of my decision grade.
But Sean's suggestion of having a pro radiator shop clean the radiator may be a good alternative, especially since I'm not sure the '03 versions of the radiators are still available from Ford.
Jack if the 03 is not available from Ford at least Benny is close enough to BPD
that he should not have then tack on that horrid shipping charge. Sadly it looks
to be around an 11 Hr drive each way. Damm that sucks.
I'm not 100% sure it's not. We're well past when Ford would typically keep the supplier on hook for keeping those in production. I remember years ago autonation stopped shipping radiators due to shipping damage.
From your post:
SILICATE DROPOUT AND SCA
Third problem with water jackets involves silicon silicate gel dropout. This when gelatinous precipitate forms in cylinder area of water jackets and in ports of cylinder head, considered engine hot spots. Precipitate acts as barrier to heat flowing from metal surfaces to coolant and raises combustion temperatures. Silicate dropout can occur when silicate concentration in antifreeze exceeds recommended levels. Antifreeze manufacturers blend their products for specific types engines. Blend for gasoline engine different from blend for diesel.
This is where I saw the problem with what Ford did. This was a time when Ford tried to improve their JD Powers ratings, and one way was to extend maintence intervals. It was also a time where cost reduction was paramount. For Superdutys, this showed in the reduction of noise abatement materials (hood pad, insulation at the firewall, etc ['03s had the best btw]), wiring harnesses no longer as Latriet but reduced to minimal, door lights and glove box lights eliminate in Lariet, and a few other things. So diesel got gold and extended coolant changes to 100k. They should have stayed at 50k. Enough of soapbox.
My examination of Karl's cooler IMO really showed the thermal issue with the silicate between the in and out ports. And unfortunately, as the cooler clogs it worsens the environment for more coagulation. The coolant that does flow through under a restricted volume then gets the second heat exposure in the EGR cooler, and IMO with its larger pathways and higher speed of flow through that cooler, the dropout then becomes the slime that continues into the other coolant areas such as the radiator, heater core and settling locations.
It's not a perfect storm as many people have made it past the 100k point without any cooler issues, so there must be other conditions present that we just don't understand. Possibly time or certain operating parameters. In the end like others I've given the opinion that Gold should be changed at 50k intervals, or another coolant like the Rotella ELC I use should be utilized.
Even that is not perfect. I changed over to ELC before my motor ate cylinder 5, so it got a new block. But my cooler over the years has increased in the thermal imbalance between coolant and oil, despite very clean coolant filters. However, this may be due to my reusing both the radiator and heater core, despite if you searched my history, I went nuclear in trying to clean out the the cooling pathways with the original motor with both acidic and alkaline cleaners for way longer then most would be willing to do. However the other possibility is that the replacement motor has some residual gold coolant in its passages from dyno testing. And as I found out from a employee of a local coolant packaging plant, gold can coagulate when mixed with other coolants.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Now I need to read everything I missed over the past long weekend.
I have to get this off my chest so sorry Benny for taking up a post in your thread , it's bad enough for stretched head bolts causing head gasket failure even heating up to blow out the EGR Cooler , I have Ran Gold up until a year ago and on my second oil cooler for the life of my 6.0 , now under Ford TSB saying use gold for life and keep our company strong by buying more oil coolers ( hi way robbery ) just saying , Benny I may have dogged the bull by replacement of the OEM Radiator on the second cooler as the Trans cooler went out, even though the heater core was replaced back some years ago 2007 range this might have saved thus far my BPD oil cooler ,with my fingers and toes crossed I'm hoping what your going through will not happen even to our Enemy , by chance are you flushing with well water or does the city water have high levels of ? End of a mild rant
My coolant has always been changed per below someone had it for 2 years Prior Owned since 2005
During the first 5 years ownership I changed the gold out a couple times I ran tap water once and Distilled the second
when the second oil cooler went in in 2011 I swapped to Final charge and Soft water its been in 5 years exact right to the Day believe it or not LOL
This Oil cooler was cut Open and Full of Casting sand in 2011
IIRC the Final charge recommended an additive after 5 years and so many miles I wasn't even close on mileage just time
It will be distilled this time and may Ditch the Final charge maybe for Fleetrite
07-03-2016, 11:55 PM
