Rob's rig - new IP and R&D Nozzles
#32
08-02-2015, 12:31 AM
Here's a couple of ideas:
If you just need a RPM signal, you can use the existing tach sensor. All you need to do is divide by 53 and you have RPM.
You should be able to do this in the MS, or if not, there's a tach divider device I saw on ebay for $50 you could use.
I was looking at using both the flywheel mark/magnet and injector timing to come up with actual firing timing - one could actually use this for real-time compensation(i.e. actual firing is happening at 8deg, so it compensates to 5deg or w/e).
The real problem is that until you know what your timing is throughout the curve, you're just guessing with your tunes; trying it by ear.
Another thought -- Instead of using housing pressure for timing, why not use the mechanical advance lever?
All it would take is making a new lever which extends far enough above the pump for clearance; you then mount a cheap DC servo motor with a cam disk attached to it; rotate the servo and you get more or less timing.
...
Damn, I so want to have enough time to do some of this. This could be great!
If you just need a RPM signal, you can use the existing tach sensor. All you need to do is divide by 53 and you have RPM.
You should be able to do this in the MS, or if not, there's a tach divider device I saw on ebay for $50 you could use.
I was looking at using both the flywheel mark/magnet and injector timing to come up with actual firing timing - one could actually use this for real-time compensation(i.e. actual firing is happening at 8deg, so it compensates to 5deg or w/e).
The real problem is that until you know what your timing is throughout the curve, you're just guessing with your tunes; trying it by ear.
Another thought -- Instead of using housing pressure for timing, why not use the mechanical advance lever?
All it would take is making a new lever which extends far enough above the pump for clearance; you then mount a cheap DC servo motor with a cam disk attached to it; rotate the servo and you get more or less timing.
...
Damn, I so want to have enough time to do some of this. This could be great!
#33
08-02-2015, 12:38 AM
Postmaster
#34
08-02-2015, 12:49 AM
Postmaster
Your idea about the servo motor would function pretty much like a Stanadyne Ds4 stepper motor and optical disc. I have looked into the Ds4 quite a bit and believe I can make it work on an idi. I do think Justin's idea is feasible but it just seems easier to adapt a Ds4 and the electronics. Heck I even found a way to burn my own multi-position chips as well. One thing that might be a down side though is getting more fuel out of it. I did read that the DB2 cam ring was quite a bit bigger and might work to add more fuel but that is all moot until it is actually on truck and running.
That being said, really the only benefit of a DS4 is the ability to map fueling and control timing, with the latter being the most important. The other thing I have been chatting about with my pump guy with is controlling the metering valve without a governor (Essentially taking the ****ty parts of the DS pump right out of the mix if you can make a cyborg out of the DB pump)... If we could electronically control the timing with a brain, we should also be able to use a stepper to control the metering valve, which is what I have found to be the biggest bottleneck of volume at this point. It only opens part of the way, and when you have a legit big pump that flows 180cc of fuel, not only the resolution is terrible at that point (with the governor), but it cuts the top end down. If you can electronically control the metering valve, and the timing (With no spill valves or anything to jam up the works like a DS4), you can basically have a flat 200cc of fuel, fully mappable.
Id still rather have a P-pump, lol.
#35
08-02-2015, 09:35 AM
#36
08-02-2015, 08:27 PM
Postmaster
The drive flange is different, and the housing is too. They didn't make ford versions like they did the DB pumps. They are totally different from the DB pumps, nothing swaps over between them...
I guess to put it in perspective, it would be less work to convert a DB pump to electronic control than would be to do a ford DS4.
#37
08-03-2015, 12:34 AM
Damn I didn't think about the drive flange being different. Well crap that almost looks like a lost cause then. Lol.
Tagging along with the idea of converting a DB pump, what about using the existing electronics and sensors from a DS pump then. That would keep cost down slightly. I'm sure there would be some things that were different but whatever could be used might be a good thing...
Tagging along with the idea of converting a DB pump, what about using the existing electronics and sensors from a DS pump then. That would keep cost down slightly. I'm sure there would be some things that were different but whatever could be used might be a good thing...
#38
08-03-2015, 07:18 AM
The hard part is finding parts /cheap/.
Like a throttle position encoder - We'd need one with an electronic output(so no C6 VRV). E4OD sensors seem to be hard to find or expensive.
The other option is making a custom bracket and using a piece of off-the-shelf electronics tech - Either a quadrature rotary encoder or even just a potentiometer would do.
Any reason why you can't just make a metering valve with the head rotated slightly, so it's further open than normal, and therefor the governor is typically holding everything in a more "closed" position relative to "normal", yet the same amount of fuel is flowing?
Drill a hole in the lid, make an O-ring seal, and make a long metering valve that sticks out the top of the pump. A couple of screws for a stepper motor and you've potentially got a solution.
Like a throttle position encoder - We'd need one with an electronic output(so no C6 VRV). E4OD sensors seem to be hard to find or expensive.
The other option is making a custom bracket and using a piece of off-the-shelf electronics tech - Either a quadrature rotary encoder or even just a potentiometer would do.
Jerad, the problem is that the DS4 is 100% different... I dont have one myself, but the injection shop let me play with one a bit, and its just not compatible, it is 100% GM in terms of its function... you can thank Ford/IH for the PSD for that one.
That being said, really the only benefit of a DS4 is the ability to map fueling and control timing, with the latter being the most important. The other thing I have been chatting about with my pump guy with is controlling the metering valve without a governor (Essentially taking the ****ty parts of the DS pump right out of the mix if you can make a cyborg out of the DB pump)... If we could electronically control the timing with a brain, we should also be able to use a stepper to control the metering valve, which is what I have found to be the biggest bottleneck of volume at this point. It only opens part of the way, and when you have a legit big pump that flows 180cc of fuel, not only the resolution is terrible at that point (with the governor), but it cuts the top end down.
That being said, really the only benefit of a DS4 is the ability to map fueling and control timing, with the latter being the most important. The other thing I have been chatting about with my pump guy with is controlling the metering valve without a governor (Essentially taking the ****ty parts of the DS pump right out of the mix if you can make a cyborg out of the DB pump)... If we could electronically control the timing with a brain, we should also be able to use a stepper to control the metering valve, which is what I have found to be the biggest bottleneck of volume at this point. It only opens part of the way, and when you have a legit big pump that flows 180cc of fuel, not only the resolution is terrible at that point (with the governor), but it cuts the top end down.
Drill a hole in the lid, make an O-ring seal, and make a long metering valve that sticks out the top of the pump. A couple of screws for a stepper motor and you've potentially got a solution.
#39
08-03-2015, 07:49 PM
#40
08-03-2015, 09:21 PM
Postmaster
The hard part is finding parts /cheap/.
Like a throttle position encoder - We'd need one with an electronic output(so no C6 VRV). E4OD sensors seem to be hard to find or expensive.
The other option is making a custom bracket and using a piece of off-the-shelf electronics tech - Either a quadrature rotary encoder or even just a potentiometer would do.
Any reason why you can't just make a metering valve with the head rotated slightly, so it's further open than normal, and therefor the governor is typically holding everything in a more "closed" position relative to "normal", yet the same amount of fuel is flowing?
Drill a hole in the lid, make an O-ring seal, and make a long metering valve that sticks out the top of the pump. A couple of screws for a stepper motor and you've potentially got a solution.
Like a throttle position encoder - We'd need one with an electronic output(so no C6 VRV). E4OD sensors seem to be hard to find or expensive.
The other option is making a custom bracket and using a piece of off-the-shelf electronics tech - Either a quadrature rotary encoder or even just a potentiometer would do.
Any reason why you can't just make a metering valve with the head rotated slightly, so it's further open than normal, and therefor the governor is typically holding everything in a more "closed" position relative to "normal", yet the same amount of fuel is flowing?
Drill a hole in the lid, make an O-ring seal, and make a long metering valve that sticks out the top of the pump. A couple of screws for a stepper motor and you've potentially got a solution.
The TPS on our pumps is the same piece as the gasser stuff, so no issue there, its just a 1-5v setup and out pumps already have the mounting bosses there.
No.... The issue I have come across is Min/Max travel in relation to MV lever throw. My big pumps are fully maxed out on throw, and I still have to have the idle set to 750-850rpm to get the top end fueling right. Im sure if I set the idle at 1000rpm, I could get a full 200cc at HP peak, but that would get about as annoying as a huge cam in a HP gasser if driven on a daily basis.... I have looked at mechanical ways to do it, like deleting the governor and directly controlling the MV through an expanded linkage, but it really doesn't solve the resolution issue.... The nice thing about a stepper, is it can make WAY finer adjustments to the fuel supply.
As far as mounting the stepper, I was thinking drilling the housing near the MV, have a small lead screw and sleeve that's connected to the metering valve lever... Use a 92.5+ housing and limit total fuel by the external screw (I know the stepper wont need it, but its more of a boundary for tuning)... Delete the whole gov assembly, but leave the throttle shaft only to directly control the TPS for fueling purposes (And that natural pedal feel)...
In answer to your post above... The reason you don't only want to control the lever, is that transfer pressure will still overcome the retard of the light load assembly at some point... If you delete the lever and servo button, and you have a constant relation of transfer pressure and housing pressure over the entire RPM range, you can change housing pressure very easily by a PWM valve on the return which makes the differential completely controllable over the whole range, not just the low end. If you couple both MV control and Housing Pressure control into one unit and two maps... You bring the best of both worlds (Mech and Elec) into one package...
#41
08-03-2015, 09:21 PM
Postmaster
#42
08-03-2015, 09:53 PM
#43
08-03-2015, 10:02 PM
Postmaster
I think you are equating electro-lag with programming....
#44
08-03-2015, 10:49 PM
The problem is that you have to deal with a lot of electrical noise. The easiest way to do this is to average your signals over time. This gives you a more stable/smooth signal, but introduces lag.
That being said, I've never liked the feel of my mom's 02 Powerstroke... Even in neutral, it's not nearly so snappy, and the throttle curve is /wrong/ feeling(slight bit of pedal = revs to 2K. Takes a lot more to get it up in the curve).
Kinda like a gasser, to be honest... no governor feedback really.
That being said, I've never liked the feel of my mom's 02 Powerstroke... Even in neutral, it's not nearly so snappy, and the throttle curve is /wrong/ feeling(slight bit of pedal = revs to 2K. Takes a lot more to get it up in the curve).
Kinda like a gasser, to be honest... no governor feedback really.
#45
08-22-2015, 10:30 PM
Update!
I just pulled my injectors; it's been 1k+ miles and I thought I'd check on them.
Also, I was getting a bit of a lope/vibration. I figured one of the shims had a burr which had gotten mashed down over time, and the pop pressure was off.
I pulled all 8 injectors, and found:
6 popped at 1800 PSI +-
1 popped at 1750 PSI +- (Within tolerance - just a little lower)
1 poured all the oil out the side hole.
That last injector was my issue. Turns out the bottom section had come loose - injector builder(me) error. Tightened it up, and it tested at 1850 PSI. I took my shims and sanded them on a flat grind stone, and got it to 1800 PSI.
Put them back in, and it's sounding better. I also noticed that it's more retarded than I thought it was; Perhaps that injector had been firing early(when it fired at all)?
Overall, these injectors are all working, though I did notice spray pattern variation between them -- I had one that liked to spray off to the side in two streams about 10deg from straight, and another that sprayed in a nice straight line straight down. The others were between them in pattern.
Does it matter? I don't know. I'm just glad I have an IDI instead of a direct injected engine, where it /would/ matter.
I just pulled my injectors; it's been 1k+ miles and I thought I'd check on them.
Also, I was getting a bit of a lope/vibration. I figured one of the shims had a burr which had gotten mashed down over time, and the pop pressure was off.
I pulled all 8 injectors, and found:
6 popped at 1800 PSI +-
1 popped at 1750 PSI +- (Within tolerance - just a little lower)
1 poured all the oil out the side hole.
That last injector was my issue. Turns out the bottom section had come loose - injector builder(me) error. Tightened it up, and it tested at 1850 PSI. I took my shims and sanded them on a flat grind stone, and got it to 1800 PSI.
Put them back in, and it's sounding better. I also noticed that it's more retarded than I thought it was; Perhaps that injector had been firing early(when it fired at all)?
Overall, these injectors are all working, though I did notice spray pattern variation between them -- I had one that liked to spray off to the side in two streams about 10deg from straight, and another that sprayed in a nice straight line straight down. The others were between them in pattern.
Does it matter? I don't know. I'm just glad I have an IDI instead of a direct injected engine, where it /would/ matter.