ecoboost engine
#46
07-13-2015, 06:31 PM
My next F150 will most likely be the 2.7L EB. I'm thinking that will be the best all around engine choice for my needs, Ford just needs to add it to a higher trim level truck. Add in the new transmission & things will only be better.
I went the diesel route once and it just didn't work for me. I'm trying a big inch engine now & well I do like it, I like my EB more. I'll just have to see what I'm towing in 2017.
I went the diesel route once and it just didn't work for me. I'm trying a big inch engine now & well I do like it, I like my EB more. I'll just have to see what I'm towing in 2017.
#47
07-13-2015, 07:10 PM
Perhaps in your eyes, and we're all entitled to our opinions. I've seen enough $10,000+ repair bills in the diesel forums to not buy into your viewpoint. EcoBoost failures seems downright rate compared to those with late model Diesel engines. Just my opinion there, I have no statistics to back that up. We sure don't see many blown up EcoBoosts around here.
#48
07-13-2015, 07:21 PM
RELAX. I am just messing around
You don't need to be a Judge or a jury to see the arguments are very very weak and irrelevant.
#49
07-13-2015, 07:29 PM
#50
07-13-2015, 07:38 PM
There is no need to ask. We know what you think and are sick of hearing about it.
#51
07-13-2015, 08:01 PM
Meanwhile back to the original question.
Pros:
Lots of power throughout the rpm range.
Excellent towing engine, Flat land, hills, mountains, rain, snow, sleet, heat whatever this engine delivers.
HP & Torque of a much larger displacement engine (i.e. 6.2L) with less fuel usage than that large engine.
You'll have one of the faster vehicles on the road.
Cons:
You'll have to put up with the constant EcoBoost bashing of those who wish they would have had the foresight to buy this engine.
Pros:
Lots of power throughout the rpm range.
Excellent towing engine, Flat land, hills, mountains, rain, snow, sleet, heat whatever this engine delivers.
HP & Torque of a much larger displacement engine (i.e. 6.2L) with less fuel usage than that large engine.
You'll have one of the faster vehicles on the road.
Cons:
You'll have to put up with the constant EcoBoost bashing of those who wish they would have had the foresight to buy this engine.
#52
07-13-2015, 09:01 PM
Meanwhile back to the original question.
Pros:
Lots of power throughout the rpm range.
Excellent towing engine, Flat land, hills, mountains, rain, snow, sleet, heat whatever this engine delivers.
HP & Torque of a much larger displacement engine (i.e. 6.2L) with less fuel usage than that large engine.
You'll have one of the faster vehicles on the road.
Cons:
You'll have to put up with the constant EcoBoost bashing of those who wish they would have had the foresight to buy this engine.
Pros:
Lots of power throughout the rpm range.
Excellent towing engine, Flat land, hills, mountains, rain, snow, sleet, heat whatever this engine delivers.
HP & Torque of a much larger displacement engine (i.e. 6.2L) with less fuel usage than that large engine.
You'll have one of the faster vehicles on the road.
Cons:
You'll have to put up with the constant EcoBoost bashing of those who wish they would have had the foresight to buy this engine.
#53
07-13-2015, 09:06 PM
Objection:
What is your objection? Tom has no idea how different I think diesel engines are from gas engines and while the difference--especially as related to turbos are well documented, "how different" is very difficult to quantify
Sustained and very accurate. Everyone is directed to disregard the argument as to what Tom perceives that Mr. Skinner thinks.
Objection 2 to the second point:
What is your objection?: Tom makes the point that not everyone with a trailer needs a diesel. I totally agree. The point I make is that for heavy towing to the limit of the ecoboost, that a diesel may be the way to go. Nothing that Tom says negates this point.
Sustained Also. Without further consideration Tom, your point and case are dismissed.
RELAX. I am just messing around and using a legal format. You don't need to be a Judge or a jury to see the arguments are very very weak and irrelevant.
What is your objection? Tom has no idea how different I think diesel engines are from gas engines and while the difference--especially as related to turbos are well documented, "how different" is very difficult to quantify
Sustained and very accurate. Everyone is directed to disregard the argument as to what Tom perceives that Mr. Skinner thinks.
Objection 2 to the second point:
What is your objection?: Tom makes the point that not everyone with a trailer needs a diesel. I totally agree. The point I make is that for heavy towing to the limit of the ecoboost, that a diesel may be the way to go. Nothing that Tom says negates this point.
Sustained Also. Without further consideration Tom, your point and case are dismissed.
RELAX. I am just messing around and using a legal format. You don't need to be a Judge or a jury to see the arguments are very very weak and irrelevant.
#54
07-13-2015, 09:25 PM
Senior User
When I bought my Ecoboost the dealer had an almost identically equipped F-250 6.2L gasser Crew Cab which I considered for about an hour then signed the papers on the Eco. I tow 6-8 times a year and just have no use for a 3/4 ton. The 150 Eco tows just as well if not better since the power to weight ratio is much better, rides better, is more comfortable to drive, fits in the driveway better and gets better gas mileage towing or not. The bottom line price was almost identical to the dollar but I still went with the Eco.
#55
07-14-2015, 07:55 AM
Even though this thread has derailed into the nether regions of hell I will put in my .02 regarding the OP's original question.
I bought my 2012 screw xlt EB used with 64k on the ODO. I was very reluctant as I come from the old school of "There's no replacement for displacement."
I had a hard time accepting that a V6, even with turbos, was worthy of occupying the engine bay of a full size truck.
I am now a true believer. The power of this motor always puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. I have not gotten bored of the power it produces on a daily basis.
You ask what are the cons. I would say the fact that Ford originally promoted the Ecoboost as the fuel mising savior of the full size truck world with all the power one could want was quite the misnomer. Although fuel mileage has improved since I purchased the truck a little over a month ago and I am satisfied where it is at, the fuel mileage numbers are average at best. My neighbor gets better fuel mileage with his 5.0.
How this thread turned into a diesel vs. ecoboost debate is really a non issue as the argument involves motors in two different vehicle classifications. You probably won't see an ecoboost in a F250 and with the popularity of the ecoboost engine line, a diesel in a F150 is most likely highly unlikely.
I bought my 2012 screw xlt EB used with 64k on the ODO. I was very reluctant as I come from the old school of "There's no replacement for displacement."
I had a hard time accepting that a V6, even with turbos, was worthy of occupying the engine bay of a full size truck.
I am now a true believer. The power of this motor always puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. I have not gotten bored of the power it produces on a daily basis.
You ask what are the cons. I would say the fact that Ford originally promoted the Ecoboost as the fuel mising savior of the full size truck world with all the power one could want was quite the misnomer. Although fuel mileage has improved since I purchased the truck a little over a month ago and I am satisfied where it is at, the fuel mileage numbers are average at best. My neighbor gets better fuel mileage with his 5.0.
How this thread turned into a diesel vs. ecoboost debate is really a non issue as the argument involves motors in two different vehicle classifications. You probably won't see an ecoboost in a F250 and with the popularity of the ecoboost engine line, a diesel in a F150 is most likely highly unlikely.
#56
07-14-2015, 08:12 AM
you also claim that comparing a turbo diesel to a turbo gas is apples to oranges ... back it up. what is so different? aside from the method of ignition, they are far more similar than they are different. learn me something, for a change, rather than make claims and walk away. its time to put up or shut up, son.
(truth be told, i'd rather that you just shut up)
I know.
DIESEL VS. GASOLINE TURBO DESIGN
There is much confusion about turbos and their use on diesel engines compared to their use on gasoline engines. We'll see if we can shed some light on the subject.
The principals of their operation are the same and their plumbing of intake air and exhaust gases are the same, but where the real issues come into play are the combustion pressures and temperatures, operating RPM range, and the driving cycle.
Diesel Engines and Turbos
Let's start with the basics. Whether it is a semi truck or a generator set, turbocharged diesel engines are typically large displacement, low operating RPM power plants. They run in a very narrow RPM range. Diesel fuel is atomized as it enters the combustion chamber and upon compression (with only residual heat) the air/fuel mixture lights off. The combustion pressures are very high due to the high compression ratios needed to ignite the mixture. Because of the high compression pressures, mechanical parts must be strengthened to handle such loads: connecting rods are larger, crankshafts are stronger, and pistons are bigger. All of this reinforcement means that there is a much heavier rotating mass, which is more difficult to spin at high RPMs, so diesel engines tend to be low RPM power plants.
As with any internal combustion engine, the more air and fuel that can enter the combustion chamber, the more power it will produce. Diesel engines, because they are spinning at low RPMs, can't really "suck" in enough air to fill the chamber on each cycle, so the addition of a turbocharger helps.
Diesel burns at low temperatures and exhaust temps are typically in the range of 500-800ºF and the volume of exhaust gases is quite high. When sizing a turbo for a diesel engine, the turbine section must have enough flow for the high volume of exhaust gas and minimize back pressure. It also must flow a very large volume of intake air in order to keep the cylinders filled. As mentioned previously, diesel engines already run high compression, so adding a turbo is to increase the volume of air entering. The boost is typically very low: in the 5-8 psi range. (I know there is someone reading this saying "Hey, I've seen tractors that are running 40 psi of boost." You may want to look into that because it is not uncommon to have people mistake "inches of manifold pressure" for "psi of boost." There are a few show trucks and tractors that run outrageous amounts of boost, but remember we are dealing with the drivable vehicles here.)
Now that we have this turbocharged diesel engine with a huge turbo to make the volumes that we need, let's talk about spool-up times and drivability. Spool-up time? Any watch with a second hand can time the spool-up of a diesel turbo. They aren't the fastest in the world, but they don't have to be. Most diesel engines are designed for continuous reliable running, not 0-60 sprints. And even though that huge turbo takes a while to spool up, it also takes a while to spool down. Most diesel engines don't have throttle bodies (they use metered fuel to control engine speed), so there is less back pressure when you lift of the accelerator, and therefore less to spool the turbo down. The only spool down is from the reduced exhaust gases. These larger turbos spin at lower RPMs, typically below 50,000. So, you can size the turbo larger to get the volume you need without the main concerns being spool-up time.
Gasoline Engines and Turbos
Gasoline is much more volatile than diesel fuel: it burns hotter, ignites quicker, does not need to be atomized for combustion, and also uses a lower air-to-fuel ratio than diesel fuel. These are smaller displacement engines that need to operate at a wide RPM range for drivability. They already have four valves in the head so they can get a lot of air and fuel into the cylinder and exhaust gas out. So we have an engine that runs very well, but we want more power, so we (or the manufacturers) add a turbo.
Our engine already "breathes" fairly well due to its head design. There are some four-valve heads that achieve 98% efficiency at filling the chambers. What we need to do to get more air in is to pressurize it, so we need more intake air pressure along with the correct volume. If we were to run 5 psi of boost, that would be just enough so that the engine doesn't waste energy "sucking" air in. If we really want to make more power, we have to step up to the 10-15 psi pressure range, along with the correct volume. So, we need high pressure and volume. In order to generate these higher boost pressures, the turbo spins at a much higher rate, from 40,000 all the way up to 125,000 RPM.
We need to have quick spool-up time of the turbo. We tend to wind through gears more than a diesel, so there is more up-down-up in the RPM range. Unlike a diesel, we have throttle plates that close off the intake tract, so whenever the throttle closes, the turbo spools down due to the back pressure and lack of exhaust gases. The closing of the throttle plates can cause a significant surge in the intake tract and can even damage the compressor wheel if it is severe enough. With our broad RPM range we need to make the proper volume of air for the engine speed. Our engine needs twice the volume of air at 7000 RPM than at 3000 RPM and it needs to make it efficiently.
The turbine side of the turbo needs to be addressed differently. Gasoline exhaust gases are HOT, in the range of 1000-1400ºF when under load, but they are of a comparatively lower volume to a diesel. The turbine can be sized to take advantage of this heat. Hot gases will expand, and by keeping a small amount of back pressure to the engine, the cylinders will be filled completely. The hot gases have only one place to go: through the turbine. Any restrictions after the turbo are a waste and only cause slower spool up times.
Quick Summary
Diesel
Low RPM
Low Boost
High Volume of Air
Lots of Warm Exhaust Gases
Slow Spool Up
Almost No Back Pressure on Throttle Close
Gasoline
Variable RPM
High Boost
Variable Volume
Hot Exhaust Gases
Quick Spool Up
Hard Back Pressure on Throttle Close
I don't see any reason to tell the person who is giving very accurate information to "shut up" or to threaten to ban them or to complain that they are ruining a thread by joking back with someone.
(truth be told, i'd rather that you just shut up)
I know.
DIESEL VS. GASOLINE TURBO DESIGN
There is much confusion about turbos and their use on diesel engines compared to their use on gasoline engines. We'll see if we can shed some light on the subject.
The principals of their operation are the same and their plumbing of intake air and exhaust gases are the same, but where the real issues come into play are the combustion pressures and temperatures, operating RPM range, and the driving cycle.
Diesel Engines and Turbos
Let's start with the basics. Whether it is a semi truck or a generator set, turbocharged diesel engines are typically large displacement, low operating RPM power plants. They run in a very narrow RPM range. Diesel fuel is atomized as it enters the combustion chamber and upon compression (with only residual heat) the air/fuel mixture lights off. The combustion pressures are very high due to the high compression ratios needed to ignite the mixture. Because of the high compression pressures, mechanical parts must be strengthened to handle such loads: connecting rods are larger, crankshafts are stronger, and pistons are bigger. All of this reinforcement means that there is a much heavier rotating mass, which is more difficult to spin at high RPMs, so diesel engines tend to be low RPM power plants.
As with any internal combustion engine, the more air and fuel that can enter the combustion chamber, the more power it will produce. Diesel engines, because they are spinning at low RPMs, can't really "suck" in enough air to fill the chamber on each cycle, so the addition of a turbocharger helps.
Diesel burns at low temperatures and exhaust temps are typically in the range of 500-800ºF and the volume of exhaust gases is quite high. When sizing a turbo for a diesel engine, the turbine section must have enough flow for the high volume of exhaust gas and minimize back pressure. It also must flow a very large volume of intake air in order to keep the cylinders filled. As mentioned previously, diesel engines already run high compression, so adding a turbo is to increase the volume of air entering. The boost is typically very low: in the 5-8 psi range. (I know there is someone reading this saying "Hey, I've seen tractors that are running 40 psi of boost." You may want to look into that because it is not uncommon to have people mistake "inches of manifold pressure" for "psi of boost." There are a few show trucks and tractors that run outrageous amounts of boost, but remember we are dealing with the drivable vehicles here.)
Now that we have this turbocharged diesel engine with a huge turbo to make the volumes that we need, let's talk about spool-up times and drivability. Spool-up time? Any watch with a second hand can time the spool-up of a diesel turbo. They aren't the fastest in the world, but they don't have to be. Most diesel engines are designed for continuous reliable running, not 0-60 sprints. And even though that huge turbo takes a while to spool up, it also takes a while to spool down. Most diesel engines don't have throttle bodies (they use metered fuel to control engine speed), so there is less back pressure when you lift of the accelerator, and therefore less to spool the turbo down. The only spool down is from the reduced exhaust gases. These larger turbos spin at lower RPMs, typically below 50,000. So, you can size the turbo larger to get the volume you need without the main concerns being spool-up time.
Gasoline Engines and Turbos
Gasoline is much more volatile than diesel fuel: it burns hotter, ignites quicker, does not need to be atomized for combustion, and also uses a lower air-to-fuel ratio than diesel fuel. These are smaller displacement engines that need to operate at a wide RPM range for drivability. They already have four valves in the head so they can get a lot of air and fuel into the cylinder and exhaust gas out. So we have an engine that runs very well, but we want more power, so we (or the manufacturers) add a turbo.
Our engine already "breathes" fairly well due to its head design. There are some four-valve heads that achieve 98% efficiency at filling the chambers. What we need to do to get more air in is to pressurize it, so we need more intake air pressure along with the correct volume. If we were to run 5 psi of boost, that would be just enough so that the engine doesn't waste energy "sucking" air in. If we really want to make more power, we have to step up to the 10-15 psi pressure range, along with the correct volume. So, we need high pressure and volume. In order to generate these higher boost pressures, the turbo spins at a much higher rate, from 40,000 all the way up to 125,000 RPM.
We need to have quick spool-up time of the turbo. We tend to wind through gears more than a diesel, so there is more up-down-up in the RPM range. Unlike a diesel, we have throttle plates that close off the intake tract, so whenever the throttle closes, the turbo spools down due to the back pressure and lack of exhaust gases. The closing of the throttle plates can cause a significant surge in the intake tract and can even damage the compressor wheel if it is severe enough. With our broad RPM range we need to make the proper volume of air for the engine speed. Our engine needs twice the volume of air at 7000 RPM than at 3000 RPM and it needs to make it efficiently.
The turbine side of the turbo needs to be addressed differently. Gasoline exhaust gases are HOT, in the range of 1000-1400ºF when under load, but they are of a comparatively lower volume to a diesel. The turbine can be sized to take advantage of this heat. Hot gases will expand, and by keeping a small amount of back pressure to the engine, the cylinders will be filled completely. The hot gases have only one place to go: through the turbine. Any restrictions after the turbo are a waste and only cause slower spool up times.
Quick Summary
Diesel
Low RPM
Low Boost
High Volume of Air
Lots of Warm Exhaust Gases
Slow Spool Up
Almost No Back Pressure on Throttle Close
Gasoline
Variable RPM
High Boost
Variable Volume
Hot Exhaust Gases
Quick Spool Up
Hard Back Pressure on Throttle Close
I don't see any reason to tell the person who is giving very accurate information to "shut up" or to threaten to ban them or to complain that they are ruining a thread by joking back with someone.
One thing just occurred to me looking more closely at the graphs that is quite interesting, and call it apples to oranges if you like. But...
Gas and diesel are very different. Anytime someone makes an argument using a very different engine, the logic is automatically fatally flawed. Your analogy is better know as coincidence when comparing the 7.3 with the 3.5.
Gas and diesel are very different. Anytime someone makes an argument using a very different engine, the logic is automatically fatally flawed. Your analogy is better know as coincidence when comparing the 7.3 with the 3.5.
WC Engineering : Diesel vs. Gasoline Turbo Design
All I pointed out is that both are DI-T 4-stroke engines. How is that wrong? The DI-T gasoline engine is an amazing evolution, and it will continue.
You copied & pasted a lot of words above, and a lot of them are flat wrong, or very old, unless you cherry pick data to present.
Diesel turbos are very capable of spinning at 100,000+ RPM. Have you ever even looked at a diesel turbo compressor map? I have. I pushed mine hard, but did so carefully and with a lot of precautions, and it rewarded me with years of excellent service without surging. Here's a diesel turbo by Garrett making over 150,000 rpm:
Driving empty on the highway at 70-75 mph, my diesel truck made something like 3-5psi. While towing & maintaining highway speeds, it was sitting at 10-20+psi, depending on loads, headwind, and hills (typical of even a stock version of my truck). Accelerating, yes, my modified stock turbo was making almost twice stock boost levels (35+psi).
EGTs would spike while accelerating at over 1600 degrees F, measure pre-turbo (maxed out my 1600 F gauge). Empty on the highway, they sat around 600 F. Towing & maintaining speed it was closer to 1000 F. Yes, EGTs on a gas engine are hotter. And the turbos are designed to handle it with extra cooling.
So I guess your point of your copied words above, the EB turbos are doomed to fail. More horse hockey. And the more you copy & paste other people's advertisements to make a point, the less credibility you have.
I'm done here. I won't argue with partially bogus ads found by Google any longer. Best of luck with your EcoBoost hating crusade. Sayonara.
#57
07-14-2015, 08:46 AM
Wrong. It's when you put forth incorrect, unfounded statements trying to scare others about turbos, etc. that gets you confronted. You don't have to like the EB, you can even hate it if you want, but you can't spew BS and expect to be left alone. To be honest, I've never even heard of a turbo failing on an EB. I'm sure some have, due to sheer numbers, but it isn't some kind of sword of Damocles hanging over all our heads. I've heard of some misfire conditions, the worst of them causing cats to catch fire, but that has mostly been mitigated now. I've also heard of the Coyote blocks catastrophically failing, but I don't hear you launching a crusade about those.
The facts are that any engine is complicated and has lots of points where they can fail. The engine is capable of making substantially more power than it's current other options, and gets just as good fuel mileage empty as others, and probably better towing. You simply can't dispute that. To quote A Few Good Men, "Those are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed."
The facts are that any engine is complicated and has lots of points where they can fail. The engine is capable of making substantially more power than it's current other options, and gets just as good fuel mileage empty as others, and probably better towing. You simply can't dispute that. To quote A Few Good Men, "Those are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed."
#59
07-14-2015, 10:54 AM
I have said it before and I will say it again, my 5.4 2006 fx4 would average 13.5, on long freeway trips it would get 15.7 hand calculated and was tough truck to tow with, it had 3.55 gears and was hobbled with 4r75 transmission, the truck I replaced it with is a 2012 max tow with 3.73 gears and ecoboost, this truck averages 16.8 mpg and runs circles around the old truck both in just running down the road and in towing, new truck gets 18 to 21 going down the freeway at 70 miles per hour, so far this has been a win win for me. will there be problems with this engine, I don't know, but so far none have shown up, there seem to be plenty of high mileage ecoboost engines running around, looked at one truck for sale out of curiosity, was an 11 xlt supercab with 202,000 miles on it and he wanted 13k for it, truck looked solid. in summary this truck is more powerful than the one it replaced and gets better fuel mileage to boot! The only wild card is durability in long term ownership which is to be expected.
