If some many people are doing so many unsafe things -
#16
06-10-2015, 05:10 PM
First, thanks for the comments above. I do think the RVer and private "trailer life" type of operator would be more careful with his or her investment. That should be encouraged. "Pride in your ride" and all that.
This is FARS data for 2011, almost all good news, number of fatalities lowest since 1949. (!!!)
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811701.pdf
Light trucks down, motorcycles and large trucks up. Large truck numbers are so small that the percentage number is large.
No RV breakout, maybe included in light trucks.
Another one. You have to wade through this one for his second summary/conclusion post, but the key number is .44 fatalities per 100 million miles vs. 1.48 for all vehicles in the comparable years. He is concentrating on RVs, and not much trailer info is included. Looks like a good bunch of research etc.
RV Crash Analysis - Safety Statistics
Trailer info showing small numbers and a reduction in fatalities.
Details on trailer deaths by state ? The MMJ Post
Main story where I found the above:
https://mmj.vcu.edu/2013/12/15/trail...r-on-highways/
The stories about fatal accidents should make you check brakes and hitches.... and eyeball anyone in the lane next to you as well.
Like many activist sites, this one has lots of heart wrenching stuff, and focuses on homebuilt stuff that seems to fall apart at just the wrong time.
Dangerous Trailers - Saving Lives
I think it is worthwhile to keep talking safety when we talk trailers and towing. I think it is worthwhile to discourage over limit towing, speeding, and other stuff that people like to get away with so they can chuckle later about how clever they are to have broken some law and made themselves better for it.
Here's a statistic I calculated this week. Now this wasn't a trailer accident, but was the result of one man's carelessness costing a 19 year old his life.
--100% of the couple's sons were killed
--20% of their children were killed
--100% of the sister's brother's were killed
--20% of each child's siblings were killed
--100% of their remaining lives will be punctuated by this event
This is FARS data for 2011, almost all good news, number of fatalities lowest since 1949. (!!!)
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811701.pdf
Light trucks down, motorcycles and large trucks up. Large truck numbers are so small that the percentage number is large.
No RV breakout, maybe included in light trucks.
Another one. You have to wade through this one for his second summary/conclusion post, but the key number is .44 fatalities per 100 million miles vs. 1.48 for all vehicles in the comparable years. He is concentrating on RVs, and not much trailer info is included. Looks like a good bunch of research etc.
RV Crash Analysis - Safety Statistics
Trailer info showing small numbers and a reduction in fatalities.
Details on trailer deaths by state ? The MMJ Post
Main story where I found the above:
https://mmj.vcu.edu/2013/12/15/trail...r-on-highways/
The stories about fatal accidents should make you check brakes and hitches.... and eyeball anyone in the lane next to you as well.
Like many activist sites, this one has lots of heart wrenching stuff, and focuses on homebuilt stuff that seems to fall apart at just the wrong time.
Dangerous Trailers - Saving Lives
I think it is worthwhile to keep talking safety when we talk trailers and towing. I think it is worthwhile to discourage over limit towing, speeding, and other stuff that people like to get away with so they can chuckle later about how clever they are to have broken some law and made themselves better for it.
Here's a statistic I calculated this week. Now this wasn't a trailer accident, but was the result of one man's carelessness costing a 19 year old his life.
--100% of the couple's sons were killed
--20% of their children were killed
--100% of the sister's brother's were killed
--20% of each child's siblings were killed
--100% of their remaining lives will be punctuated by this event
#17
06-10-2015, 05:46 PM
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#18
06-14-2015, 08:58 AM
All of this in turn leads me to wonder what good it does to warn people of doing something we deem to be unsafe, if in fact there is almost no likelihood they will ever even see a accident involving an RV, let alone be involved in one. Perhaps that is the real crux of the problem when we debate how much a truck can tow or whether the weakest link is an axle or tires. The real world result is not a darn thing happens!
Steve
I agree.
Pointing out to someone that already have their minds made up, that they are adding to risk is fruitless. They don't want to know. But if someone asks what they should do, then I see no reason not to tell them, no matter how much you are bashed for doing so.
Most likely nothing will happen. But I won't have it on my conscious to say nothing (when they ask), and then something does happen. It's on them if they wish to add to their risk level.
It's sort of like bothering to tell people the more you buy from out of the country, the more it hurts the economy. Who is more likely to buy your product or service, the local or the distant. If they cared, they would look to alternatives anyway. As they don't care, they will go about doing whatever they want anyway. Waste of time.
#19
06-15-2015, 06:21 AM
The hardest thing about giving information is there is a good deal of research suggesting when folks seek information they tend to selectively screen out anything that does not conform to their preconceived notion so the first think you have to do is teach them they are likely to ignore anything they do not agree with, even if it is right! 
Steve
Steve
#20
06-15-2015, 06:38 AM
Agreed. Many base a major purchase like their RV and tow vehicle on advice they believe is correct. Often, that information comes from a salesman ("Sure, that truck can pull that trailer.)
Once they've signed on the dotted line, they aren't about to admit they've made a mistake.
As far as speed, I'm still upset with Ford over putting 17 inch tires on the F-450 in 2011. They based the change from 19 inch to 17 inch tires on "customer input" that said customers wanted higher speed ratings for the tires. Along with higher speed ratings, we got lower weight ratings. The F-450 is a TOW BEAST and nobody with any sense needs the extra speed. The change limits pin weights which has the possibility of actually lowering the tow rating.
Once they've signed on the dotted line, they aren't about to admit they've made a mistake.
As far as speed, I'm still upset with Ford over putting 17 inch tires on the F-450 in 2011. They based the change from 19 inch to 17 inch tires on "customer input" that said customers wanted higher speed ratings for the tires. Along with higher speed ratings, we got lower weight ratings. The F-450 is a TOW BEAST and nobody with any sense needs the extra speed. The change limits pin weights which has the possibility of actually lowering the tow rating.
#22
06-15-2015, 08:28 AM
Bottom line is, if it never happens then the logic of it being unsafe is faulty. I like to approach things mathematically considering the odds. I can't live in fear of something that will be less likely to happen than getting struck by lightning. Yes, I could be that one in a million. Yes, I could get hit by a drunk driver. Yes, I could get cut off by a semi. Yes a tree could fall on my RV while I'm sleeping. There are a million things that could happen. You can't insulate yourself from one super rare, token issue and think your safe and if you do, it's a false sense of security. But, that's the beauty of it. You can do what you want and I can do what I want.
#24
06-15-2015, 03:56 PM
I agree also. I can tell you my reasons, but I can't force them on you and I don't think you can scare people into doing things or not doing things. If we could do that we could reduce drug use, end obesity, and hundreds of other things.
I do things differently than many others in this forum, but am not bothered by it, and vice versa. In the end, I think people make decisions based upon their comfort level, not dire warnings.
Steve
I do things differently than many others in this forum, but am not bothered by it, and vice versa. In the end, I think people make decisions based upon their comfort level, not dire warnings.
Steve
#25
06-15-2015, 07:48 PM
I ride a motorcycle. That in itself is riskier than if I didn't. Just a fact.
I can reduce that risk with a helmet, proper clothing, and heightened visibility. But all riders accept a certain level of risk.
I use a helmet. In Michigan, they recently dropped the requirement for a helmet. I hit a deer about 15 years ago and my helmeted head hit the ground. I won't accept the increased risk of not wearing one after that ordeal. However, I accept more risk by using a 3/4 helmet over a full face, because I don't like full face helmets.
The difference I see is that if someone asks, should they wear a helmet, I would respond that the risk is higher if you don't. Are you willing to accept that risk?
However, I don't wear leathers. I accept the higher risk by wearing jeans. What I don't like is someone saying there is no greater risk to wearing jeans over leathers. It's not true.
Let people know the added risk, and they can make the choice for themselves. But don't act as if there is none. That is misinformation.
#26
06-15-2015, 07:57 PM
In a recent post Thomas, you were admit about a DRW being needed to be safe when a SRW was within it's limits for the application. There is no increased risk (like with not wearing a helmet or leathers) to staying within, or towing at, the limits of a SRW truck. That's where RV forums go off the rails. Insisting that some additional safety factor, that is made up in the minds of overly conservative RVers, is needed above and beyond the already conservative manufacturer specs, is just nonsense. Lawsuits would abound if that was the case. It's simply RV forum lore that is passed on from one overly cautious member to the next as gospel. On a positive note, people love it as an excuse to buy a new TV...
#27
06-15-2015, 08:04 PM
As I see it, where the argument most often comes is "what factors increases risk" as that seems to be debated. I can explain why I think some action is dangerous, but I am not sure we would have to search very hard to find someone who disagrees, be it speed, weight, you name it.
I don't disagree with you. I am perfectly willing to tell folks what I do and why. I am just not very sure that most decisions hinge on science or hard data. I suspect folks are more inclined to base their actions on what they regards as safe, regardless of whether it is.
Just a thought,
Steve
I don't disagree with you. I am perfectly willing to tell folks what I do and why. I am just not very sure that most decisions hinge on science or hard data. I suspect folks are more inclined to base their actions on what they regards as safe, regardless of whether it is.
Just a thought,
Steve
#28
06-15-2015, 08:07 PM
#29
06-15-2015, 08:13 PM
I know. Perception is reality or at least when the statistical risk really is very low. That is what makes discussions like this so interesting to me. People I respect with access to similar data come up with very different conclusions.
Occasionally I ghost an RV forum and I see discussions about repairs or factors I have never seen working in the field. It is almost as though if folks say it often enough it is true, even when it never or almost never happens. Yet the discussions can get really heated.
Occasionally I ghost an RV forum and I see discussions about repairs or factors I have never seen working in the field. It is almost as though if folks say it often enough it is true, even when it never or almost never happens. Yet the discussions can get really heated.