Ford Releases TSB 15-0088 For 2015 Active Regeneration Jackhammer Valves Issue
#16
05-30-2015, 12:16 PM
1 AND 4 huh? Only during regen? HMMMMM.......regen only operates with cyls 5-8. I don't doubt you have a problem, but don't diagnose it yourself. Remember our oil changer is also a "Ford tech". even then, a lot of young guys have odd opinions. Research your diesel techs, some are much more qualified than others.
#17
05-30-2015, 12:28 PM
2 Videos:
2015 that hauls 16,000 lb trailer weekly:
This second one at the link below is a recent occurrence of it on my truck when it occurred at a level of 6 out 10 with 10 being the worst occurrence of it I have experienced
http://wnharrell.com/superduty/jackh...ves20may15.mov
2015 that hauls 16,000 lb trailer weekly:
This second one at the link below is a recent occurrence of it on my truck when it occurred at a level of 6 out 10 with 10 being the worst occurrence of it I have experienced
http://wnharrell.com/superduty/jackh...ves20may15.mov
#18
05-30-2015, 12:42 PM
1 AND 4 huh? Only during regen? HMMMMM.......regen only operates with cyls 5-8. I don't doubt you have a problem, but don't diagnose it yourself. Remember our oil changer is also a "Ford tech". even then, a lot of young guys have odd opinions. Research your diesel techs, some are much more qualified than others.
See my log below of an instance of it occurring last Saturday where the fuel flow to 1 thru 4 was not relatively linear.
http://wnharrell.com/superduty/actre...is23may15.xlsx
When the issue does not occur, the fuel flow is linear during regeneration on 1-4 and expectedly higher and linear on 5 - 8
And how about less snipping and more collaboration and problem solving.
#19
05-30-2015, 12:44 PM
The video is nice, but I'm one of those guys that needs the vehicle there to do proper diagnostics. A vehicle that is controlled completely by computer needs to be monitored with a "computer" to diagnose it. Unfortunately, that means starting with codes. If there are none, that isn't the end of the road. Accusing Ford and all techs and dealerships of incompetence isn't going to endear you to get good service. Again, research your tech, it does work. You anywhere near Missouri?
#20
05-30-2015, 12:56 PM
The video is nice, but I'm one of those guys that needs the vehicle there to do proper diagnostics. A vehicle that is controlled completely by computer needs to be monitored with a "computer" to diagnose it. Unfortunately, that means starting with codes. If there are none, that isn't the end of the road. Accusing Ford and all techs and dealerships of incompetence isn't going to endear you to get good service. Again, research your tech, it does work. You anywhere near Missouri?
I have spoken with 21 individuals with this issue from around the country. The common Ford response to dealers after they log the issue with Ford is that there is no fix.
Again you should speak to the Service Manager at my dealership, he will tell you he has never had a customer document, log, test etc to work with the dealership in trying to find a solution as he has ever seen.
The issue here is with Ford Engineers that are siloed and firewalled and not helping the dealer to solve a factory defect issue. Mine started at 4100 miles where most do. I have one contact where his started right off the lot at 80 miles
#21
05-30-2015, 01:02 PM
Ford had a data logger placed on my truck, and the Dearborn engineer never got back to my dealership on anything the logger may have found.
I have spoken with 21 individuals with this issue from around the country. The common Ford response to dealers after they log the issue with Ford is that there is no fix.
Again you should speak to the Service Manager at my dealership, he will tell you he has never had a customer document, log, test etc to work with the dealership in trying to find a solution as he has ever seen.
The issue here is with Ford Engineers that are siloed and firewalled and not helping the dealer to solve a factory defect issue. Mine started at 4100 miles where most do. I have one contact where his started right off the lot at 80 miles
I have spoken with 21 individuals with this issue from around the country. The common Ford response to dealers after they log the issue with Ford is that there is no fix.
Again you should speak to the Service Manager at my dealership, he will tell you he has never had a customer document, log, test etc to work with the dealership in trying to find a solution as he has ever seen.
The issue here is with Ford Engineers that are siloed and firewalled and not helping the dealer to solve a factory defect issue. Mine started at 4100 miles where most do. I have one contact where his started right off the lot at 80 miles
#23
05-30-2015, 01:16 PM
Again more misinformation...
The early 2011 trucks had an issue dropping valves. To rectify the problem, Ford redesigned the head shortly after that production run of the initial 2011 build motors. The same design remained after that, meaning the new heads started in the 2011 model year, rectifying the issue for later build 2011 and beyond.
If the valves were slapping the pistons that bad, you would have near instantaneous catastrophic engine failure since to make that much noise the valves would have to hit so hard that they break the first time they make contact. Since you have NOT had catastrophic engine failure, it is NOT the valves slapping the pistons. Period. There is no argument against this.
We can't collaborate with you because you refuse to understand that the problem isn't what you think it is. You claim it's the valves slapping the pistons, we are telling you it's not. Once you realize that, then collaboration can begin.
Not only that, but you're claiming possible "legal action" if you sell a truck used with this issue. That's what really sent most people in this thread over the edge.
If the valves were slapping the pistons that bad, you would have near instantaneous catastrophic engine failure since to make that much noise the valves would have to hit so hard that they break the first time they make contact. Since you have NOT had catastrophic engine failure, it is NOT the valves slapping the pistons. Period. There is no argument against this.
Not only that, but you're claiming possible "legal action" if you sell a truck used with this issue. That's what really sent most people in this thread over the edge.
#24
05-30-2015, 01:40 PM
Again more misinformation...
The early 2011 trucks had an issue dropping valves. To rectify the problem, Ford redesigned the head shortly after that production run of the initial 2011 build motors. The same design remained after that, meaning the new heads started in the 2011 model year, rectifying the issue for later build 2011 and beyond.
If the valves were slapping the pistons that bad, you would have near instantaneous catastrophic engine failure since to make that much noise the valves would have to hit so hard that they break the first time they make contact. Since you have NOT had catastrophic engine failure, it is NOT the valves slapping the pistons. Period. There is no argument against this.
We can't collaborate with you because you refuse to understand that the problem isn't what you think it is. You claim it's the valves slapping the pistons, we are telling you it's not. Once you realize that, then collaboration can begin.
Not only that, but you're claiming possible "legal action" if you sell a truck used with this issue. That's what really sent most people in this thread over the edge.
The early 2011 trucks had an issue dropping valves. To rectify the problem, Ford redesigned the head shortly after that production run of the initial 2011 build motors. The same design remained after that, meaning the new heads started in the 2011 model year, rectifying the issue for later build 2011 and beyond.
If the valves were slapping the pistons that bad, you would have near instantaneous catastrophic engine failure since to make that much noise the valves would have to hit so hard that they break the first time they make contact. Since you have NOT had catastrophic engine failure, it is NOT the valves slapping the pistons. Period. There is no argument against this.
We can't collaborate with you because you refuse to understand that the problem isn't what you think it is. You claim it's the valves slapping the pistons, we are telling you it's not. Once you realize that, then collaboration can begin.
Not only that, but you're claiming possible "legal action" if you sell a truck used with this issue. That's what really sent most people in this thread over the edge.
Here is the TSB for the similar issue on a 2011-2013 that does not apply to a 2015
http://wnharrell.com/superduty/Ford Super Duty TSB 13-9-15 for Valve Issue.pdf
#25
05-30-2015, 03:48 PM
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I can tell you as a diesel and hydraulic tech of 30yrs., 15 of which being the principal of my diesel and hydraulics business. I routinely go to other diesel shops and a branch of of the armed services to problem solve. I have also been hired to give testimony in motor tort cases.
It is a fact that these exhaust valves on the drivers bank do suffer from momentary sticking during the exhaust regen cycle. Fords fix for a while was to eviserated the truck, pull the exhaust valves and clean the "coking" from the valve stems they had blamed on poor fuel.
This whent on for awhile with trucks having this procedure done 3 or even more times within a couple thousand miles.
Valve "floating is a condition where that valve cannot close fast enough due to a combined condition of high rpm and a cam lobe profile that when the two are put together. the valve can float. This is not the condition here.
The impact pattern is left on the face of piston.
The procedure of just cleaning the valves was dumped after trucks started showing up with miles as low as 1k or less and obviously you can't keep going with the coking causing the momentary stick as trucks were showing up with almost no miles and coking.
The problem is the thermal expansion the stem gets when being open and is being blast furnaced during the exhaust stroke, during regen. Valves guide bores will have slightly different I.Ds from different runs and tools. The trucks with tight guides will have this condition occur.
There was another and separate 6.7 valve issue. They got a batch of exhaust valves that were not properly stress relieved in the hardening process. These cracked, broke and dropped into the cylinders. This again was a seperate issue from this.
So, back to Ford, cleaning campaign was shelved and dealers were told to instruct customers engineering was aware and working on a fix.
The other day Ford releases TSB regarding the violent shake, stating " If a customer complains of this condition, give them this form stating this condition is normal".
There are plenty of diesel techs including ones who are at a dealership full time, that have documented, reported and uploaded materials regarding this condition and Fords actions, inactions, and now as of a couple days ago a complete reversal that this is normal.
Warrell, is not trying to get people upset, insecure and give restless nights to. He is in fact a member of a large growing group of owners who have gone thru and been told the three different stages of service actions and stories only to have there truck torn apart up to three times or even more, that are working with independents and different dealers that do know what's going on. There purpose is to get there truck properly squared away,( many have reigned to just having Ford by back their truck under the Lemmon law, but to help raise awareness to the entire 6.7 community, so they are aware of the condition, their individual story,(in all fairness, understandable as most people who lay down $70k plus financing are going to feel hurt angry and a part of them are looking for sympathy from other individuals who are in the same boat or empathy from others who presently are not) and to help get things to where Ford is doing the right thing.
I'm a member here but spend my time on another forum under a very slightly different name. I joined here awhile back to spread the word that after working with Manuel and Jay at AE, I got them to fix some things on AE like a missing MAT sensor and a left front abs sensor. It was then incorporated into the new Giotto. It took a bazillion emails, screen shots of the items on Ford NGS and IDS, a lot of heated for, frustrating calls both on my part and AEs. I came here and joined so I could spread the word so people could finally get a complete system as in my mind all of you already paid for that, not too boast that I did what Jay considered and stated it was a dead closed issue and if I were correct he would have heard it from 50k mechanics. I said I could not speak for those fifty thousand mechanic's anything but I was right and was going to show them. That was the beginning of the long, time consuming often contentious work began. In the end I got a gracious email from Jay acknowledging his amazement on the issue and I was correct. I was also one of the very first to receive the new Giotto, at least a month before its release thru the site or else where.
So by using this as an example sometimes when you think someone is being mildly or grossly boastful or trying to get you upset about the engine in your truck,,,,, they might just be trying to help... A savvy, intelligent person understands that issues with things get dealt with better by the manufacturer if it's out in the light. This is what Warrell is trying to do.
Y'all have a good weekend,
Nick
It is a fact that these exhaust valves on the drivers bank do suffer from momentary sticking during the exhaust regen cycle. Fords fix for a while was to eviserated the truck, pull the exhaust valves and clean the "coking" from the valve stems they had blamed on poor fuel.
This whent on for awhile with trucks having this procedure done 3 or even more times within a couple thousand miles.
Valve "floating is a condition where that valve cannot close fast enough due to a combined condition of high rpm and a cam lobe profile that when the two are put together. the valve can float. This is not the condition here.
The impact pattern is left on the face of piston.
The procedure of just cleaning the valves was dumped after trucks started showing up with miles as low as 1k or less and obviously you can't keep going with the coking causing the momentary stick as trucks were showing up with almost no miles and coking.
The problem is the thermal expansion the stem gets when being open and is being blast furnaced during the exhaust stroke, during regen. Valves guide bores will have slightly different I.Ds from different runs and tools. The trucks with tight guides will have this condition occur.
There was another and separate 6.7 valve issue. They got a batch of exhaust valves that were not properly stress relieved in the hardening process. These cracked, broke and dropped into the cylinders. This again was a seperate issue from this.
So, back to Ford, cleaning campaign was shelved and dealers were told to instruct customers engineering was aware and working on a fix.
The other day Ford releases TSB regarding the violent shake, stating " If a customer complains of this condition, give them this form stating this condition is normal".
There are plenty of diesel techs including ones who are at a dealership full time, that have documented, reported and uploaded materials regarding this condition and Fords actions, inactions, and now as of a couple days ago a complete reversal that this is normal.
Warrell, is not trying to get people upset, insecure and give restless nights to. He is in fact a member of a large growing group of owners who have gone thru and been told the three different stages of service actions and stories only to have there truck torn apart up to three times or even more, that are working with independents and different dealers that do know what's going on. There purpose is to get there truck properly squared away,( many have reigned to just having Ford by back their truck under the Lemmon law, but to help raise awareness to the entire 6.7 community, so they are aware of the condition, their individual story,(in all fairness, understandable as most people who lay down $70k plus financing are going to feel hurt angry and a part of them are looking for sympathy from other individuals who are in the same boat or empathy from others who presently are not) and to help get things to where Ford is doing the right thing.
I'm a member here but spend my time on another forum under a very slightly different name. I joined here awhile back to spread the word that after working with Manuel and Jay at AE, I got them to fix some things on AE like a missing MAT sensor and a left front abs sensor. It was then incorporated into the new Giotto. It took a bazillion emails, screen shots of the items on Ford NGS and IDS, a lot of heated for, frustrating calls both on my part and AEs. I came here and joined so I could spread the word so people could finally get a complete system as in my mind all of you already paid for that, not too boast that I did what Jay considered and stated it was a dead closed issue and if I were correct he would have heard it from 50k mechanics. I said I could not speak for those fifty thousand mechanic's anything but I was right and was going to show them. That was the beginning of the long, time consuming often contentious work began. In the end I got a gracious email from Jay acknowledging his amazement on the issue and I was correct. I was also one of the very first to receive the new Giotto, at least a month before its release thru the site or else where.
So by using this as an example sometimes when you think someone is being mildly or grossly boastful or trying to get you upset about the engine in your truck,,,,, they might just be trying to help... A savvy, intelligent person understands that issues with things get dealt with better by the manufacturer if it's out in the light. This is what Warrell is trying to do.
Y'all have a good weekend,
Nick
#26
05-30-2015, 06:36 PM
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So i assume that Ford will no longer be replacing valves for this issue? I would be curious to see if the TSB to replace valves on the 2011-13 is now gone.
If i were a betting man, this is my opinion on what is going on.
Ford has hemorrhaged millions of dollars replacing valves over and over again and have finally realized that it is not fixing it long term. They have done a bunch of R&D and have not found a cost effective way to fix the problem. So in the mean time, they are going to blame it on driving habits hoping people get sick and tired of *****ing to Ford and finally live with it, trade in the truck, or give them enough time to finally come up with a fix that doesn't cost them a fortune.
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So i assume that Ford will no longer be replacing valves for this issue? I would be curious to see if the TSB to replace valves on the 2011-13 is now gone.
If i were a betting man, this is my opinion on what is going on.
Ford has hemorrhaged millions of dollars replacing valves over and over again and have finally realized that it is not fixing it long term. They have done a bunch of R&D and have not found a cost effective way to fix the problem. So in the mean time, they are going to blame it on driving habits hoping people get sick and tired of *****ing to Ford and finally live with it, trade in the truck, or give them enough time to finally come up with a fix that doesn't cost them a fortune.
#28
05-31-2015, 09:21 PM
The TSB is referencing issues that can pop up if these trucks are idled excessively or experience many short drive cycles where the engine temps do not reach the level where a regen can take place. If the DPF becomes too full (what many refer to as being "clogged" up), it will affect drivability and cause the truck to not run right.
Ford's statement is 100% accurate and the correct action to take. If you're somehow offended by Ford's statement, it's because you aren't understanding that the OP's issue is not what is being described in the TSB. His issue is completely different. The title of the thread is misleading and incorrect.
#29
05-31-2015, 09:28 PM
This one little statement right here ^^^^^^
If people are indeed having this valve issue, there would be imprints on the face of the piston. Ford, nor anyone else, could call that "normal operation".
Which is the entire issue with this thread.
These TSB's are NOT for valve issues. If the valves were slapping the pistons, if the valves were sticking... whatever.... there would be physical evidence that a TSB could not overlook.
I'm not discounting that the OP has a problem. The issue here is that there is not a TSB addressing his concern. The TSB's he is referencing are for other problems.
If people are indeed having this valve issue, there would be imprints on the face of the piston. Ford, nor anyone else, could call that "normal operation".
Which is the entire issue with this thread.
These TSB's are NOT for valve issues. If the valves were slapping the pistons, if the valves were sticking... whatever.... there would be physical evidence that a TSB could not overlook.
I'm not discounting that the OP has a problem. The issue here is that there is not a TSB addressing his concern. The TSB's he is referencing are for other problems.
#30
05-31-2015, 10:01 PM
I can understand his frustration. If my new truck started doing this I would be none to pleased.
I live in outside the city so my commute to work is all highway and 4 miles of freeway then a mile or so of regular streets.
I think the day of driving a diesel a few miles and leaving it idle are over.
I live in outside the city so my commute to work is all highway and 4 miles of freeway then a mile or so of regular streets.
I think the day of driving a diesel a few miles and leaving it idle are over.
