My 2000 Ex came with front only, my 05 came with front and rear. One more interesting fact, the front sway bar on both my Ex's is thicker than the front sway bar on my 02 F-350! The sway bar on the back of the F-350 is thicker than the rear sway bar on the 05 Ex. Just sayin!

 

Good question. I'm not sure what year the lawyer bar became standard equipment.
A lot of people don't realize that many a truck for many a year had NO sway bar.
Personally I feel it is more formality than function. I don't want to start a pissing contest about them because if someone thinks it helps them then good for them and so be it....but personally I just feel different.
For those that don't know....why they never used to have anything like a sway bar was because on a leaf spring vehicle the design is very fail safe. If you have good springs, good bushings, shocks good as well ...it is very difficult for said set up to sway. On a leaf spring set up the leaves locate the axle. They are bolted solid up front and have a rather heavy shackle on the other end. This is then bolted to the axle.
A coil sprung vehicle has radius arms...control arms or whatever you want to call it from back in the day ( pre-1997). Those arms located the axle. No sway bar even on those setups from back then and I have to tell you if either set up would be giving off lateral motion (sway) it would be the coil setup.
Personally there are so many other variables that could be addressed with the big super duty that could tighten the whole thing up in lieu of sway bar. Again these are big machines and no matter how dialed in you feel your ride is, it will only ever be so good because of the sheer hulking size and simple yet functional set up. They weren't meant to handle like a Ferrari or GT 40

 

To clarify, I THINK the anti sway bar is designed to prevent sway induced by the body leaning in a curve, etc, thus compressing the leaf spring on that side.

When that happens that shackle rolls as the spring flattens out.

When that happens the centerline of the axle WILL move on that end rearward if the shackle is to the rear or forward if the shackle is to the front.

When that happens the car will not be following in the same path/arc/curve/line that you are driving in. The driver then counteracts that change with the wheel and you end up with oversteering & understeering coming out of a corner.

This is greatly reduced with stiffer springs....Obviously. But when you have a top heavy vehicle to begin - even with good proper springs the anti sway bar helps.

I really don't like the "body lean" of any vehicle regardless of leaf or coil suspension. The sway bar more acts like an "anti roll" bar in a coil spring setup. Even if the roll doesn't induce sway or wandering, it's still annoying to have the car lean alot.

We have a 56 Bel Air 9 passenger wagon. The car is lowered with blocks and cut front coils. It handled like a boat (top heavy), before and after lowering it.
Two years I added front and rear Hellwigs to it. Now it feels like it's on rails and I Didn't put stiffer springs in. It absorbs and suspends the same in straight lines and gentle curves, but it doesn't lean.


Those are my thoughts but I am far from an authority on suspension, but I do understand geometry.

 

A few things I would like to say about this. it is clear that Hellwig makes a great product. There seems to be nobody that states otherwise hence probably better than stock.

Having said that a few points on your points. I have no doubt that your sway bar made a difference in that car. But lets take a look at that for a moment. You are comparing a BelAir that you have lowered and modified. Why was that modification done? I'm only assuming here but a guess would be so that the car would be more friendly to drive it harder? Quite possibly at some have fun kind of speeds? Would a sway bar help you achieve that goal? Certainly.
To me a Super duty was never meant to be driven hard in a sporty kind of fashion. Do I think a person can have a normal behaving super duty driven within its window of design without a sway bar? Yes I do. Very much so.
There are so many other factors that play into those big machines that impact any sway/body roll and we have not even got to the sway bar yet.

For example...a set of wider than stock tires on some rims leaning on the narrow side of things will bulge the sidewall more than a wider rim will.
What happens when cornering with that tire/wheel set up? You get sidewall roll. A driver could very well have the sensation of body roll or swaying or bad handling..whatever. Can the most well engineered sway bar mask that issue? Maybe but only in the slightest. Can a sway bar mask weak springs? Bad spring bushing? Bad shocks? Or a combo of all the above? I'm far more concerned with the spring/shock combo than any sway bar in a super duty.

Because again this machine was never made to be driven fun or sporty. They are made to be driven safely within the confine of the DOT regulated speed limits whilst hauling or towing and doing work.

Moreover IMO this is another example of eye of the beholder here. Example..driver A loves a nice soft spongy ride. Buys shocks accordingly. Very soft shocks. Driver B loves a solid knock your teeth out bone jarring ride. Again buys shocks accordingly.
Are either one wrong? No. Because in either case the vehicle can still be driven safely yet behaves different to each driver's liking. So a sensation of body roll or sway to you coming from a super duty might be annoying when it might seem like a perfectly balanced machine to someone else.

Please note:
I'm not suggesting to anyone removing the sway is a good idea. Just offering up some of my thoughts of a sway bar on a super duty...a vehicle that is perfectly safe working within its intended design with good springs, shocks, etc.

 

But not the stock springs, right?



I appreciate you taking the time to write your response and not having a crappy attitude in regards to us not agreeing on all points. It's posts like yours and mine going back and forth that go sideways real quick.

It's good discussion otherwise and gets the ideas and thoughts going.

Joe

 

I too appreciate that this conversation is staying very civilized on all sides.
I do agree with most everything that has been said and my experience with my Hellwig rear bar was very positive. But that experience was still with the stock springs and I think that is the root of the "debate". X88 has specifically stated "good springs", in my opinion (formed from my experiences) the stock EX suspension does not include "good springs" at least not for my usage, which is more 'truck' use than 'car' use. In stock trim my EX didn't wander at all when driving solo but it did have a lot of body roll with any steering input at speed (posted highway speeds, not hot rodding), felt very "wallowy". With our toyhauler hitched up it was just plain scary and in my opinion dangerous (disclaimer here, I was just a little over on the trailer tongue weight which I'm sure didn't help). The extra weight on the rear axle and especially the "momentum push" from the trailer while decelerating caused some serious rear steer, like drifting level rear steer! The addition of the Hellwig bar made a very large reduction in this unwanted activity and made the combination actually somewhat safe to operate but it still wasn't "comfortable". Research here at FTE lead me to my modded X/B spring swap, the addition of these "good springs" change everything! Now the EX handle so much better solo and towing (even with our new heavier TT) it's like driving a different vehicle. When I did my spring swap I also kept the Hellwig and fabbed up new longer end links to keep the correct bar geometry and I haven't driven the EX at all with the X/B springs without the Hellwig. I'm sure that without the bar the ride would be so much better than stock, body roll wise due to the stronger "good springs" but I have the bar and it's under there and it is going to stay there for whatever little extra it may add to the mix. I don't mind a very firm ride (I'm that guy) and everything I've done to my suspension has been to improve the EX's towing performance which I am very happy with currently so I'm keeping the bar, I have no interest in going backwards.
I think for an EX that doesn't tow or only tows lighter loads that a spring swap to stronger "good springs" will be fine (as long as the owner is totally happy with the end results!) without a rear sway bar in the mix. If an owner is keeping their stock springs I almost always suggest adding a rear sway bar as I think with the stock springs it is a sound upgrade with an eye towards safety in the event of rapid evasive maneuvers.

 

I've been thinking about this. Let's forgo the front sway bar for a moment and talk more about the rear. The above statement to me when talking about the rear sway bar seems like a contradiction to me. Would not be the first time I didn't get a statement ....

We have people chiming in about the use of the rear sway bar during towing and how it makes a big difference. Going off the above statement how could that be? Once the tongue weight is on the vehicle a significant force is pressed down on the springs. The vehicle has not even moved yet and you have the springs flattening out. (obviously determined on the actual tongue weight). Going around a corner as you say that tongue would be pressing the springs down as a constant. That is not to say one side or the other couldn't rise during that corner but a trailer on board would really keep that to a minimum.

I agree about the debate and it is wonderful to have people agreeing to disagree about things civilized...hell even in some fun.

These are things IMO that determine handling. I will list IMO the order of importance of components that impact handling.
Tires, tires, tires/rim combo/air pressure (probably #1)
Springs
shocks.

So many people buy a tire based on looks rather than function and totally dismiss the magnitude with which a tire has on the quality of drive.
A fat tire on skinny rim= sidewall roll. Protects the rim off road but bad handling
a fat tire on proper size rim = better handling but a wider tire can bring other issues.
Example of that is a wider tire will grab more of the pavement. The more aggressive the tire the worse it gets. Here in PA we just got pavement introduced yesterday it seems ......
has the most uneven paved roads that a wider tire grabs all those high spots. Hit those high and low spots of the pavement around a corner and its saw at the wheel time. The heavier the vehicle negates some of this but regardless when those tires grab the high spots of the **** poor paved roads the vehicle reacts. A skinnier tire by default does not grab as much pavement as the fat tire.

Air pressure is another factor. Lower is better off road but lower on road impacts handling.

Springs are very self stating. Good springs of quality...stiffer will make the handling better. Yes softness of ride could suffer but again that is in the eye of the steering wheel holder.

Shocks are the same type of thing as the springs.

So many people will chase their tail trying to find the problem when often times the cure is right in front of them. People try to address a sloppy steering problem pointing at the steer box itself. Totally ignoring the fact they have 14.50 inch wide tires only one stabilizer and it is worn out.

Tires of same size but different tread pattern will handle different.

If we take the poke fun at the lawyers out of the conversation probably what ford was trying to do is put a band aid on the set up. Trying to create a softer riding leaf sprung vehicle not sway. It's really a joke and a formality on a super duty because if you use a softer leaf that needs the aid of the sway bar due to the spring being of soft rate, then hauling suffers. Hauling doesn't suffer on a super duty so I do believe in these massive machine examples they are on there just because.

oh yeah...the front excursion springs suck. There is no disputing that. They never should have left Kentucky with such garbage on the front. Sway bar in tact and bushings still in good condition they still suck. A top designed sway bar can only help that a little bit because those springs are still trash. See what I mean? The spring itself is the big boss man.
You could put better springs on an excursion and no sway bar and let a person drive it who also has an excursion with tired stock springs and a sway bar. That person will say wow, this thing handles much better than mine.

Again though if the sway bar makes someone comfortable go cat go! It is all about your preference and no one else.

 

Excellent closing statement, nearly everyone here has done something to their EX to make it "their own" whether that be cosmetic, power adders, sound systems or suspension changes and when doing that making the owner happy should always be the top priority!

 

Tom,
I totally understand what you are saying....BUT, in my situation (all I have to base MY experiences on) I think this theory is incorrect or more accurately incomplete. The stock rear EX springs are not only softer and weaker than the sibling SD units but in the situation described I experienced severe problems. Towing going downhill into a curve while decelerating (9500lb +/- trailer, 1400lb TW using a Draw-Tite WD hitch with 1200lb spring bars fully loaded) the rear axle of the EX was deflected to the point that it caused the combo to change lanes from rear steer at 50MPH. From the driver's seat what I felt was happening was not ONLY body roll (still plenty even with the surcharge load the TW added) induced rear steer as Rodder earlier described but also a degree of dog walking due to the springs deflecting to the side. The trailer was, as any tag trailer does to a degree, trying to push the rear of the EX to the outside of the turn due to the trailer's weight/momentum trying to continue in a straight line while the TV enters a curve. It is my belief that these stock springs are way too flexible (in all possible directions) to perform correctly in the situation (which was not properly optimized and was outside of the EX's design envelope) I had saddled them with. I understand that my described situation was above and beyond the EX's design but I also think that allowed for it's shortcomings that are always present to be amplified to a higher degree. Most folks would never feel that level of the combined rear steer, dog walking, squat, and wrapping and I don't want to ever feel it again either!

Is that even legal? It very well might be and I have no idea nor going to look at the approved towing numbers of said Excursion but something with that kind of weight/girth would be a million times better as a goose neck set up. Obviously impossible with the excursion.

 

Well, I'm not a lawyer and the opinions (both here and on other sites as well as contradicting published laws and codes) are somewhat confusing and loaded with caveats, so is it "legal", I don't really know. What I do know is that a V-10 EX with 4.30 gears is rated to tow an 11k trailer, I'm just a little deeper on gears (4.88s but effectively 4.39 due to taller tires) and just about spot on with trailer weight. The door sticker axle weights are based on the stock springs (axles are identical to the higher rated SD trucks), my EX has F-350 springs with extra leaves added front (+1) & rear (+2). That doesn't change my door sticker but it does up the "true" and SD proven abilities of the suspension. My 35" tires with their 3750lb load rating exceed the factory ones and also surpass the rear axle's designed max rating of 7k lbs (which it is under when fully loaded). I am over on my hitch's TW rating (with WD) and that will be addressed soon with a beefed up replacement Curt hitch. Drivetrain performance has been enhanced with Banks headers & Y pipe and a selection of custom tunes from 5Star Tuning which provide small engine output increases and greatly improve transmission performance. The hitch is a top of the line Hensley Arrow Sway Elimination WD (Pivot Point Projection design) assembly using 1400lb spring bars and is rated up to 14k lb trailer weight. I use a TST Systems 8 sensor TPMS system which supplies real time tire pressure (high & low pressure alarms) and temperature (high temp alarms) from all EX and trailer tires (less the spares).
I am sure a pickup using a goose or 5th wheel hitch would pull this kind of weight better by some amount, but I don't have a pickup, my TT is a tag style and we can't fit 8 people into a crew cab pickup. So I have done everything listed above to make our EX more capable, more comfortable and safer (compared to stock) while pulling a trailer that suits our wants and needs. The end product has been a comfortable and reliable tow rig for over 20k towing miles so far. And there is always something waiting on the to-do list to make it even better.
It's not an easy challenge with an Excursion, maybe not for everyone, but certainly not impossible.

Our old toyhauler, was 9,500 to 10,500 depending on the toy load.


The new TT, 41' long, 11k lbs, 3 slides, sleeps 7 or 8 (depending on how much #7 & #8 like each other).

 

Truth right there. HA HA

I didn't realize just how massive that thing you were hauling is. At 41 feet long that thing just screams snaking down the road. Incredible that you got a handle on it the way you did.

we have talked about a lot of things..had you tried towing it with your new spring set up in the back and no sway bar. I forget. Was just curious about that.
That set up is unique for sure. Even the slightest bit of cross wind would put a ridiculous amount of lateral leverage on the whole thing. WOW

 

Thank you!
No, I have not pulled with the X/B springs without the rear sway bar. And not really looking to try it, I want the back end as stable as possible.
Yeah, Crosswinds do push things around. However that HA hitch WILL NOT ALLOW TRAILER SWAY, not even a little bit! It is pretty amazing actually, with winds the entire combo acts more like a long straight body truck than a truck/trailer combo, it moves, but all together with zero tail wagging.