Continuing fuel being pushed through the cylinders - tried everything to correct to no avail

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03-11-2015, 03:32 PM

TimHaley

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Continuing fuel being pushed through the cylinders - tried everything to correct to no avail

Following a failed IDM module in Nov. 2014 (it was replaced), I had a push rod failure in cylinder 7 and a rocker arm failure in cylinder 3 along with three fuel injectors in December 2014. My mechanic repaired the push rod and rocker arm and replaced all 8 injectors and ran a compression check on all 8 cylinders. All but one showed 400+ lbs with the odd one showing 315 lbs. We kept have fuel being dumped into the cylinders when the truck had cooled down over night. We'd replaced the IDM module in October 2011 and again in November 2011, and all injectors had been replaced in 2009. In January 2015 the fuel pump failed while it was at a local Ford Dealership where the the PCM was being reprogrammed.
We did a test drive where the truck seemed to run fine, then suddenly seemed to run on only four cylinders he replaced a wiring harness that showed insulation failure on four wires - I believe these were leading to/from the injectors. While at the shop he'd replaced the fuel and oil filters and oil and cleaned the fuel reservoir at the top of the engine. He has done several computer diagnostic tests to see if the PCM and IDM were communicating and at times the truck passes all tests, then at a second or third trial it fails. Last week we thought everything was fine but five miles down the road it reverted back to running as if it was getting too much fuel and would loose power. It wouldn't do over 50mph. Back at the shop, with a warm engine, when pressing down on the fuel pedal the truck seems to stall then shoots out a puff of black smoke from the exhaust - fuel in the exhaust line. We aren't loosing antifreeze or oil through the head or valve cover gaskets. The turbo was replaced in 2010. Before the injectors were replaced we did have diesel in the turbo tube but not now. There isn't a leak in the turbo tube.
The mechanic is stumped. The failure of the rocker arm and push rods in two separate cylinders were probably the result of either excessive pressure or metal fatigue but their failures may have been due to somethings else? Could the turbo be the problem? At this time the truck has been in the shop about 2 1/2 months with no end in sight to getting it back on the road. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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03-11-2015, 06:34 PM

greg_8507

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TimHaley

Before the injectors were replaced we did have diesel in the turbo tube but not now.

What turbo tube are you referring too? I don't understand how fuel could get in the turbo. Oil in the turbo on the other hand is common.

Are you finding fuel in all cylinders or a particular one?
If it's only one cylinder that is getting fuel in it I suppose an injector could be leaking fuel. I've never heard of it, but i guess it could happen.

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03-11-2015, 07:45 PM

F350-6

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TimHaley

Back at the shop, with a warm engine, when pressing down on the fuel pedal the truck seems to stall then shoots out a puff of black smoke from the exhaust - fuel in the exhaust line.

Welcome to FTE.

Just want to clarify this part here. By fuel in the exhaust line you're referring to that being the cause of the black smoke?

I'm sure your mechanic is willing to keep throwing parts at it until you run out of money. Can he monitor live date like ICP psi and IPR duty cycle? Does the check engine light come on at all? What codes have been pulled specifically (the numbers)? When he replaced some wiring, what exactly did he replace? Harness under the valve cover? Valve cover gasket? Pigtail going to the valve cover?

Passing and then failing tests sounds like an electrical issue. I'd suggest him ohming the connections between the IDM and the injector while wiggling the wires to see if he can find an intermittent short.

I'd also suggest he ohm the injectors and compare readings. An injector that reads half an ohm or more off the others can indicate a bad injector soleniod which will cause the IDM to shut down the entire bank.

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03-11-2015, 08:19 PM

TimHaley

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Continuing fuel being dumped into the cylinders - reply

Reply to number one's comments and concerning the statement, "fuel in the turbo". Not being a diesel mechanic, I stand corrected - it wasn't fuel but oil. I don't know how many cylinders were involved in the excess fuel. I'll take yours and the other individual's reply I received to the mechanic tomorrow and see what he says. Of the eight rebuilt injectors we'd ordered/installed, two proved defective and another pair were sent/installed. Not knowing if an injector can leak fuel I will have to ask the mechanic on that one as well.
Regarding reply number two: Yes, I guess I'd say the black smoke (not blue or white) was indicative of fuel.
I will ask him if he can "monitor the live date like ICP psi and IPR duty cycle. The check engine light did come on during the last road trial trip. It didn't on the previous two test drives. I have printed out yours and the other fellow's replies and my original thread and will present them to the mechanic in the morning. Regarding the wiring, he did do a "wiggle test" to see if something was lose or broken - nothing showed up. I will find out what the wiring harness replaced was called. I'll ask about testing the injectors for resistance (ohm). Because he picked up on the previous two defective injectors, he may have already run a test for resistance, but I will ask him.
Thank you both for your quick responses and comments. I will be back tomorrow with the mechanic's responses and comments. If possible I will have him get on line and comment directly to this thread and yours. I'm just the worried messenger, not the prophet or sage.

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03-12-2015, 01:07 PM

TimHaley

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TimHaley's input regarding conversation with mechanic today

Regarding the query: "Are you finding fuel in all cylinders or a particular one?" He couldn't determine which, if any one of the cylinders was accumulating fuel, but he was able to check and make sure that all recently installed injectors were operating properly. Regarding: "By fuel in the exhaust line you're referring to that being the cause of the black smoke?" I believe the answer here is yes. The mechanic referred to a "snap of the throttle" when he tested the warmed and running engine by engaging the fuel pedal by pushing it down to the floor rapidly. He felt that the amount of smoke was excessive. Also, the black smoke would appear after the engine had cooled (as in the morning when starting the vehicle). Query: "Can he monitor live date like ICP psi and IPR duty cycle?" Yes. He indicated that tests run on these came out with good results (i.e., tested properly).
Query: "Does the check engine light come on at all?" Yes at one point it did. The code read for this was 1670 (EFT Back Signal not detected). The mechanic replaced the cam sensor and the error code went away.
Query: "What codes have been pulled specifically (the numbers)?" 1298 (IDM); 1316 (IDM); 1211 (Injector Control Pressure) - the mechanic replaced the pressure regulator and associated parts and thereby corrected that error message; 1670 (EFT Back Signal not detected) - the mechanic replaced the cam sensor unit and this error message disappeared; P1668 (IDM & PCM Not Communicating) - replacing the IDM addressed this issue.
Query: "When he replace the wiring harness, what exactly did he replace?" The fuel injector harness was replaced - 5 wires were frayed.
Query: "Harness under the valve cover?" He replaced one of the two valve cover harnesses.
Query: "Pigtail going to the valve cover?" He did replace this pig tail harness as well on one side.
Suggestion: "...ohming the connections between the IDM and the injector while wiggling the wires to see if he can find an intermittent short." He did run an electrical check on the resistance and did perform the wiggle test as suggested. Nothing out of the ordinary nor a resultant failure/short was found.
Suggestion: "... ohm the injectors and compare reading." He performed this test as well on all the newly installed injectors and did not find abnormal ohm readings. Note: it was this test he used to determine that two of the previously sent replacement injectors were bad - those two were sent back and replaced.
Note: Following the fuel injector harness on the one side replacement, all the glow plug wires were checked and all were found to be good.
The PCM (Power Train Control Monitor) has not been replaced but the local Ford dealership did reprogram it - if it were defective they should have detected that when they did the reprogramming.
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03-12-2015, 06:59 PM

F350-6

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How exactly did he

Quote:

check and make sure that all recently installed injectors were operating properly

?

I don't think you have fuel leaking into the cylinders. If you did, you would have hydrolocked the engine by now. If there's any suspicion of fuel leaking into the cylinders with the engine off, the glow plugs can be removed to verify or rule out this condition.

P1670 is a code for the Electronic Feedback (EF) signal between the IDM and the PCM. Replacing the cam sensor didn't fix this code that is sometimes thrown at random. Clearing the code is what made it go away. Likewise, replacing the IDM was likely not necessary.

Where did the injectors come from? What events led up to the push rod and rocker failure? When you say push rod failure, are you referring to just a bent push rod, or something worse?

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03-13-2015, 12:45 AM

TimHaley

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I'll pass your responses on to the mechanic in the morning and get back to you regarding his comments/actions. The injectors were purchased from Diesel Care and Performance out of Memphis, Tennessee (Diesel Care and Performance Inc).
Regarding the failed push rod and rocker failures: Following replacement of the IDM [we went back and looked at the service record and found that the actual date of the initial IDM failure had occurred in August 2014. It failed and was replaced (under warrantee) in October 2014.] The truck ran fine through the remainder of October and through November. One morning in early December I started it up and was letting it warm up when the engine started a loud thumping noise - similar to a failed push rod/rocker arm/lifter. I turned it off immediately and had it towed to the shop where one of the pair of push rods in cylinder 7 was found to have broken and the other one bent. Why it failed is unknown and the mechanic could not determine the why or wherefore either but said there had to be a reason - they just don't break and fail like that without a cause. Following replacements of the fuel injectors in December the rocker arm in cylinder one was found to have broken - the mechanic said it wasn't broken earlier and again couldn't identify why it had failed. In both cases the metal within the push rod and rocker arm had literally broken off!

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03-13-2015, 01:10 AM

carltonwebb

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Have you always owned this truck or did you buy it with these issues or did they pop after you had owned it for a while?

I am wondering if it has some crappy tuner on it.

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03-13-2015, 08:10 AM

Tugly

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TimHaley

...I had a push rod failure in cylinder 7 and a rocker arm failure in cylinder 3... ...ran a compression check on all 8 cylinders. All but one showed 400+ lbs with the odd one showing 315 lbs.

That was all I needed to see. If this were under the hood of my truck, I would stop right there. 25% compression difference from the other cylinders is a no-go. Before shopping for a motor or a rebuilder, it might pay to confirm that number - a lot of money rides on that one number.

I welcome counter opinions on this.

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03-14-2015, 08:28 PM

TimHaley

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I'd purchased the truck as a bank repossession in the summer of 2009. It had two previous owners and I found that the first had a minor front end accident, while the second ruined the engine during the time he had it. He purchased another engine and had it installed and it was being serviced following the installation at a diesel repair shop in town. The shop indicated that the engine had 85,000 miles on it. While in the shop, the second owners wife died leaving him with two young boys. He apparently "lost it", left the boys with his parents and disappeared for a year. When he returned the bank, who had been trying to find him, repossessed the truck which had sat in the back lot of the diesel shop - they held onto it because the owner was a good friend of the son's father. I had the shop finish the engine work, change out the fluids and the injectors. I then had my mechanic do an overhaul and make sure everything was OK. Between 2009 and 2015 it ran pretty good with minor repair work - normal system maintenance.

Note: The compression test this last January showed seven (7) cylinders with 400+ compression and one with 315. Yeah we know that isn't good but that in itself shouldn't cause all the issues we've been having. The cylinder with the poor compression was not number one or seven, the two cylinders with the failed push rod and rocker arm. I think the mechanic said it was number three.

Following the 2009 servicing, I purchased a "Super Chip" software package and used it when needed over the last 6 years with no problems. The truck has performed very well up until this last December. We uninstalled the Super Chip software this last January to see it that was the problem but it's removal did not change anything. Remember I'd mentioned that the Ford Dealership reprogrammed the PCM this last January and they indicated that they'd installed four updates during the programming installation.

Hope this helps.

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03-14-2015, 08:56 PM

Tugly

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"I realize I'm wearing a leg cast, but I think I can run with a limp if we figure out why the cast is chafing my leg."

I realize I'm saying the Emperor is wearing no clothes... but you have parts that mysteriously broke off in the engine and low compression in one cylinder. As a friend - where is the line you draw before you determine stapling cash to the motor is deemed fruitless?

If you were doing the work yourself, you might be able to limp it along for a short time - maybe not. BUT... you're looking for a Hail Mary pass to the mechanic that charges by the hour. You could very well get deep into the Buck$Zooka armory with this, then spakle over the cash craters with another motor.

Just sayin'

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03-14-2015, 09:37 PM

TimHaley

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We've thought of the replacement cost for rebuilding, purchasing a new motor or just getting another truck. None of the venues sound good and all sound expensive. As a toss up between the new (rebuilt) motor or a truck I think the motor will be the cheapest. Thanks for your comments. Tim

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03-14-2015, 11:18 PM

Tugly

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I get the heartache, bud. One hates to break out the big ammo for repairs. If my engine started dropping hardware on the asphalt, I'd replace it (or have it replaced) - I would not give up on the truck. It's a lot of money for a rebuild, but it's a lot more for another truck with a good motor.

If I could think of anything to help you get by with the existing motor, I'd offer that up - I am loath to giving up on a motor or suggesting spending more money than necessary. As it is, so much has happened and is going on in there - I don't know if anybody has a solid fix from afar.

As I always suggest, I would urge you to get more opinions than mine in regard to giving up on the existing motor.

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03-15-2015, 05:53 PM

greg_8507

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I've been sitting and dwelling on this for a couple days now. None of your issues fall in line with any single cause of failure I can conjure. You said the motor had 85,000 miles on it when it was put in your truck? Why was it pulled from another truck to begin with? I'm thinking this motor was dogged hard in it's previous life and is now starting to let go. A rebuild from the ground up will clear up all issues and will also give you the opportunity to build it how you want it. i.e. Forged piston rods(assuming your motor as Powder Metal Rods), ARP studs top and bottom, injectors of your choice, upgraded turbo, valve job , HPOP ect. You will also be able to be sure your crank, pistons, and rods are all properly balanced. (If you do custom upgrades I also recommend custom tuning)

If you're going to kill it you might as well over kill it. With everything rebuilt and properly balanced, all you have to do is take care of the regular maintenance and this truck will last you many hundreds of thousands of miles. Hell, you may never have to spend money for a major repair for as long as you keep the truck.

If you are mechanically inclined and are using a local mech, MAYBE you can sweet talk him in into letting you do some of the work while he is working on other jobs, saving you labor cost while helping the shop keep up with customer demand. Some small business will work with you on this, others won't.

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03-15-2015, 07:49 PM

DieselDenny

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Just to echo what Rich says about compression. Cylinders should be within 10 pct. HOWEVER. It should still run but run with a little lope.

What caught my eye in your very well put together explanation of circumstances is that your snapping steel.

I'm thinking.........how do you do that? Timing off, oil/fuel in the cylinder/injector nozzle sitting on a piston and wearing your head as a hat??????

You had your PCM reflashed.....and this is not your VIN matching unit? (engine replaced) Could there be a fundamental problem with your PCM not speeky English to the the rest of the team?

This is by far the best post of a major mystery I have yet to see in FTE.

Please keep us informed.

Pulling for you!!

Denny

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