Well those of you that are familiar with Old George (49 F1)

may know that I've been wanting to install a T5 behind my 226. I finally have the trans in hand so I want to start putting together all the necessary components and I'd like some help and advice along the way. I currently have the original 4 speed (non synchronized) in it right now, and I also have one out of an F2 to use for it's "hogshead" in case mine is a one piece and not separate like the larger trucks were. I will pull my trans out of the F1 as soon as I get an angle finder for the engine so I know what to set the height at when I put the trans support in. Any advice on angle finders (or any other topic) is appreciated.
I will apologize in advance to those that are reading this before it's complete, but I hope to provide a well documented install with lots of pictures for those that may be looking at the same thing by the time this thread is complete. I have obviously read as many threads/articles as possible on the subject, and I've been in contact with Brain75 about his install since it's virtually the same. He used a Dwight Bond plate, and I'm trying to get a current number for him to see if he's still willing to make plates. If someone has an extra please let me know as I would like to use an original hogshead as long as I can find an adapter plate. I may even have someone fab one up here, but I have a feeling it won't be cost effective. Questions I have for those that know:
- Who else makes just the plate that is intended to be used with original 4-speed hogshead? I know Wilcap, Cornhuskers, Flat-O, Speedway,and I'm sure others make kits, but tell me what you used and what you may or may not have liked about them. On Monday I intend to call Dwight and Flat-O for starters.
- What clutch/pressure plate did you use?
- Did you cut the entire crossmember?
- Did you change shifters or install blocks to shorten the throw (I plan on incorporating my original shifter rod at some point)?
- Do you have pictures, if so post'em if you got'em?
- What might you do differently?

OK, let's take a look at what I have:


$300 from a guy that works at a gear shop. He's a hot rodder and has been collecting them since he's seen the value in putting them behind Flatties. He went through it and replaced the bearings. I think $300 was a pretty square deal.






Mechanical speedo




Reverse light switch.








Here are the many different numbers on it:


146 tells me that it's from an 85 with the V6. It should have the following for ratios:
Reverse: 3.76
1st: 4.03
2nd: 2.37
3rd: 1.49
4th: 1.00
5th: .76
I won't pretend that I know what all that means, but on the advice of others this was the best pick of what he had to offer.


Here are the various other numbers for your viewing pleasure:








And here are some shots of the 4-speed from the F2 next to the T5. I tried to line up the ends of the shafts so you could see the differences.






Notice the mount in the back (not the same as an F1.




Casting numbers on the side of the 4-speed




Gotta love the Alaska license plate inspection cover




Took a close up so I have a reference when putting mine all together. I think the return spring assembly will need modified to work with the T5.


Here is the clutch and pressure plate from the F2. They have never been used, but have been in a garage for about 10 years. I'd like to use the pressure plate if possible. Some say you need to do a little grinding to get things to fit (please verify). The clutch measured 10 1/2" if memory serves me. I think I'll need the Chevy 9 or 10" from an S10, is that correct??






Again, I encourage any feedback and advice as I truly know nothing about clutches/pressure plates/thowout bearings,etc. I only know what I've read in previous threads and a lot of that flies right over my head. Thanks for your help through this project as I want to use Old George as my daily driver this spring/summer/fall.

 

I used the Bond adapter plate and the hogs head. I bought it from Dick Spadaro...but unfortunately his business is no longer around.
The mounting holes on the trans need to be enlarged to 1/2" as they are metric. The Bond plate also needed an early Ford CAR 3 speed front bearing retainer which slides over the T5 one for the throw out bearing to work.
The stock pressure plate will work fine, but the disc needs to be correct for this swap. A stock S10 disc will not work. Speedway sells the discs, but it didn't work well for me, so I modified my flywheel to use an OEM Astro van disc. Much better quality.
Also the end of the input shaft may have to be trimmed.....measure carefully.

A pic of mine mocked up....

 

Thanks for the input and pictures Tinman! I love your thread (although I haven't gotten it all the way through yet) and you do amazing work. I do have a couple follow up questions if you don't mind......
- Do you know what year the 3 speed bearing retainer is from?
- Can you expand on why the S10 disc won't work?
- How do you know if the input shaft needs trimmed? Did it not slide all the way in, and did you measure an original trans from the end of the hogsheads to the end of the shaft for a template?

Sorry for all the questions, and thanks for the help.

 

The bearing retainer is from a 32-48 car 3 speed and I think the 51-52 truck light duty 3 speed will work also. Note that this part is only required with the Bond adapter AFAIK.

The S10 chutch disc won't work because the hub and springs protrude too far on the flywheel side, hitting the pilot bushing and bolt heads. The speedway disc is made offset to clear.....however that disc is imported and low quality IMO, with little or no "marcel". Very harsh...I had horrible clutch chatter with that.
I'll give it to you if you want to try it.

If your crank has space behind the pilot bushing, you won't have to trim the input. Not sure what the 226 crank is like. Basically you will need to bolt the adapter and hogshead on and measure from the end to the mounting surface. Compare to your old trans.

clutch discs......S10 on the left, speedway on the right.

 

Thanks again for the info Tinman,and the offer for the disc. I know I've read about others using the s10 disc, but maybe it was for the v8 and somehow different, or they modified it to work? It's too bad that the Speedway one is junk. I simply have no baseline understanding of these parts so I am leary of trying anything that will require much modification since I don't have a great understanding of what the end reasult should look like (other than to take a lot of pictures/measurements of the original before I take off the hogshead). From what I can tell from schematics it looks like the disc bolts right to the flywheel? And I assume you relocated the holes in the flywheel to bolt the Astro Van clutch to it? Is this layed out in one of your threads that I can study? I'll know more about what goes where when I tear mine out. Thanks again,

 

If your original trans was a crashbox 4-sp, I'd wager you had an 11" clutch. Your measurement of 10.5" on the disc seems to confirm that. I don't think you can use an 11" with any of the setups for a T5, you need a 10" Ford or do like Tinman did. Re-drilling for any different PP is a machine shop task. They aren't just threaded holes, they have a counter sunk section and all the holes must be very accurately placed or it will vibrate like no tomorrow.

I can't find any direct reference, but I was under the impression the V6 T5's won't work with most kits. It may be the later 4.3L V6's where that is true, not the 2.8.

I think this link has been posted many times, but here it is again. In the links provided you will find the answer to every question you could have: Technical - TRANSMISSION - T5 Tech Links | The H.A.M.B.

 

Thanks for the reply Ross. The 11" disc is off the F2 but I assume that when I tear mine out it will be the same. I couldn't use the disc anyway because the spline (at least that's what I think it's called) is different from the output shaft on the T5 right? Or is there an adapter? Again, I'm ignorant on this stuff......
As for the T5 from the V6 model not working, I haven't read that anywhere. Again, I could be wrong, but I sure hope not. FlatErnie suggested I pick the one that I did after I gave him the numbers off it and the others I had to choose from. What would be the difference that would cause it not to work I wonder?
I know that all the "kits" I've seen say they are for the v8, and I also know that you had debated years ago as to why the v8 is different from the I6 for the purpose of the T5 swap. I still have not read what the difference is but can assume it's actually the holes that would attach the hogshead to the bell housing since the bellhousings are different (I believe). I will confirm all this once I get the trans out behind the I6 on the F1, I already have a bellhousing,hogshead,and trans off a V8. I'll take some photos and clear it up.
As for the link, I have definitely seen it. I've read them all at least once,and the ones that pertain to my situation more. Heck, I even started to read them before I got the truck, but I certainly don't have a photographic memory though, so I do appreciate the help. I still have many questions unanswered (such as what the difference is between the 6 and 8 that make the swap different, and can you use the s10 disc (Tinman says it wouldn't work for him, and others have used it such as Brain75), I just read today that an 11" disc will work, but you say no. Reading too much can be a bad thing I guess..... I just need to dig in and see what happens. I know 51fordfan was surprised at how easy it was once he started, but my guess is he has way more wrench time than me and more than just hand tools and a couple of teens to work with. My biggest worry is not knowing what is correct and what isn't before I slap it together. Brain75 had to make several mods to his, see below from one of his threads:

"I did need the collar for the throwout bearing, had to modify.

I did use Dwight's pilot bushing, had to modify. If it was me again or me advising someone else I would suggest not to go this route and to get a simple bearing from a shop locally.

I already had thin headed flywheel bolts.

I used the S-10 clutch disc, cause my flywheel and clutch (looked stock) was too small for a big clutch disc. Surface area differences are almost nothing, it looks fine.

I did not have to machine anything, the S10 clutch disc cleared fine."



But everywhere he said that he "had to modify" begs the questions; WHAT WAS MODIFIED? Hopefully I can pull my trans out soon and get started.

Happy Trucking

 

I started out with a 10" stock Ford pressure plate and the speedway disc...had to have the flywheel re drilled. Then went to the Astro disc, which is 10.5" so I had to go back to the 11" pressure plate. Again a stock Ford unit.
The springs on the Astro disc don't quite clear the recess in the center of the flywheel, so I had it opened up a bit. Also used ARP flywheel bolts which have a thinner head.
Sorry, I don't have a detailed thread on this, but did take some pics.
pic of the Astro disc and modified flywheel....

 

That is great info Tinman! So you also used a 10.5"? I could then potentially use my stock Ford 11" pressure plate and a 10.5" disc? I can see where you had the flywheel milled, I love pictures! Pictures make me learn gooder....... Thanks again Scott

 

You can use the 11" pressure plate if you use the hogshead+plate adapter. Not with the other style adapters though...

Also, I'm not saying the astro disc is the only or best way to do it.....but it's another option. I discovered this setup by trial and error.
Speed way offers a 10.5" disc that would require no mods...dunno about the quality though. You could also have a disc custom made to your specs.

 

Regarding the bearing retainer question, all 4 transmissions used in the F1-6 Bonus Built trucks used a different front bearing retainer. 48-52 light duty 3 speed transmissions used part number 78 7050 which was the same part used on passenger cars back to 1935. If you need one, Van Pelts have them for $39.
Ford Transmission Parts Prices

 

So being the cost conscious nut here in the crowd, lemmie ask what is wrong with using the (S10) stock (probably on the tran when you grab it) chevy 10" clutch plate (measures about 9.25") - 100% of the clutch surface area mates with the pressure plate and flywheel, no spring rub issues, etc - it just works and it is pretty cheap (if not free).

All the extra modding to make the 11" (measures 10.5") seems to be waste money when you are putting it behind a 100 horse flathead...

I think (didn't ask him directly), but that is what 51fordfan did, and it is definitely what I did, didn't cost me a cent extra cause I grabbed the clutch plate with the trans and the zit faced kid just charged me for "transmission complete"...need pix:

 

I just re-read and saw your quote of my other thread, let me explain what was modified as best I can given it was almost exactly 2 years ago to date (3/10/2012)....
The bushing inserted in the throwout bearing I used (from amazon)

is the right OD and ID, but length is too long, so I had to cut it (put it on a lathe or even just bandsaw) and then chamfer the lip and polish up the bore real quick (10 minutes with tools, 20 with a hacksaw/jewlers saw and being slow and methodical.

The pilot bearing dwight sent with the plate if I remember right was just a few thousands too tight (caused things to bind up) - like the difference between metric and closest SAE.
I just took the right size drill and cleaned the bore up (no significant material removal).

The little loop that the return spring hooks into does not exist on the new trans or plate, so you have to either steal the front cover off a trans or do what I did and fab up a little loop and bolt it to dwight's plate (I just used some scrap).

Instead of a bushing in a bearing (on the throwout), what I would do differently is this - go to napa with your old throwout bearing and tell em to give you one with the same OD, same thickness but a 1 5/8" ID (same as the amazon bushing above, same as the trans needs) - measure first to verify my info is correct.

 

And I must, absolutely must applaud you for doing a start to finish how to thread. I meant to myself, but my 4 day weekend got short when I got hung up on the starter and went through so much time there. I skipped pix of much of anything internal that would be good to show now (the slightly out of focus pix of the clutch was all I did take pix of). Please persevere with the documentation and put all the pix up, several of us have been through it and it was "too easy to bother documenting" - hence fellas like you have no reference.

It really is a breeze piece of cake - too easy to believe (at least on the 6 cyl, using dwight's plate and 10" clutch disc).

If Dwight doesn't have any on hand and puts you on a wait list (he does em in batches when he gets 4 or 5 people who want em from the Model A crowd) then I would go with cornhuskers adapter, same thing, but cast instead of machined alu.


Lemmie answer your #1 post questions too while I am ranting:
- What clutch/pressure plate did you use?
Chevy 10" (measures about 9.25")
- Did you cut the entire crossmember?
Yes, there is no way to get a T5 in without.
- Did you change shifters or install blocks to shorten the throw (I plan on incorporating my original shifter rod at some point)?
I moved the shifter hole back 7" to match the new trans, cut the ridiculously short shifter shaft down low (where the welding seam would be hidden in the boot) and welded my old shifter onto the stub.
Note: tack it with 2 little tacks and shift through the whole pattern every gear before committing. You will be tempted to center the shaft in the space between seat and dash, don't. Push the limits of dash as far as you can, that way you can slide the seat forward 2 or 3 notches and let a 5'4" shorty drive just to play once in a while.
- Do you have pictures, if so post'em if you got'em?
not many - you got em above
- What might you do differently?
as well as the bushing in a bearing mentioned above, I would have put my shifter 7/8" closer to the dash... as is I can only have the seat in the furthest back or 1 from it location. Minimum 5'6" height to drive and push pedals all the way to the floor. The way mine is, seat in the last notch the shaft clears by 1/8", in the next to last notch it touches in 4th (I think). and I wouldn't be comfortable driving that way.

 

Great info and advice fellas! I really do appreciate it, and it's just getting started..... Thanks for ringing in Bryan. I received your PM as well, and things are now starting to come together a bit in my simple mind.

Bryan: I certainly can appreciate being cheap (cost effective I think is the PC term that's why I'm asking about the 11" pressure plate. I already have one that's brand new (pictured above) that came with my F2 parts truck. I thought I could save a chunk of $$$ by using it. I bought my trans from a guy that has had a few sitting around the shop not a junk yard or I would have heeded your advice for sure and grabbed the original. So the question is, can I find a disc for the 11" Ford PP? Would an s10 one work? I do have some parts stores up here,and if need be I will find a good place to get a bearing. I had already bought a new throwout though back when I had just planned on putting the new clutch/pp in the old crash box. So we'll see what I end up doing once things start to come together. Thanks for the pictures and all info! Good stuff brother.

Tinman: What motor is your's behind? I'm just trying to sort out why it worked for Bryan and not you. Also, what year/motor Astro did you get your disc from? Thanks

Well I didn't have time to call around yesterday like I had planned because I forgot that I was planning on helping out at the start of the Iditarod. I did manage to get everything ready to pull the trans though. Here are some photos:


I ran to Lowe's after the iditarod and picked up this angle finder.




Not the best.... as you can see the magnet fell out as soon as I opened it (made in China)




After some adhesive and tape I got a reading off the carb and block




Bryan: I do have a good driveshaft. It's 69" total and around 60 of it is before the taper. All I need to do it have it shortened and have them weld on the end needed for the T5. That'll be the last thing I do though.


It's what the truck had already connected to the 9" rear.




Thought I better have some plywood around so I could set the beast on something




Notice the straps on the front and back




Lots of wiggling,but no dice last night.


After many attempts at repositioning my blocking under the engine to change the angle, I finally got that pig out!


I wanted to get my measurement from the edge of the hogshead to the end of the shaft so I knew what it should be with the T5. Is there any other measurement that I should get?


Put a straight edge on it




Then I just measured it. It was a hair under 2 7/8" with my old tape measure. I should really get something more accurate....


The rest will have to come out another day:


Pretty nasty in there.


Will the starter have to come out? I guess I should just check the manual. If it does though, what is the trick to keeping it together so it doesn't fall apart? I know I read it somewhere.....


I wanted to take off the hogshead so I could compare it to the one from my 49 8BA. They are in fact the exact same piece, right down to the casting numbers.





I don't have a side by side of the 2, but take my word for it, they are the same. Maybe this is common knowledge, but I have never read where someone has confirmed it.




Check out the 1949 stamp on the throwout. Pretty awesome, I think


Additionally, today I did call around to a few places and price adapters out. Here's what I found:
Wilcap does a kit similar to Speedway with the half bell included (not a plate) It's $360, plus another $340 if you want the entire kit + shipping.
Flat-O does the plate, but wants $295 for it. If you want the kit that includes everything (disc/pp/etc) it's $650 + shipping.
Dwight Bond still does the plate adapter (thankfully!) for $135, + $45 for the bushing adapter (not sure if it's for the end of the shaft or the throwout) and $12 to ship. About $180 total to get it to AK, not bad. He said that after this batch he will have to raise his price again, but still plans on producing more. The number I reached him at is (308) 468-5885[IMG]resource://skype_ff_extension-at-jetpack/skype_ff_extension/data/call_skype_logo.png[/IMG](308) 468-5885. I left a message on the number I got from you Bryan, but can't say if it was his number or not. The one posted works though and will come up as 2nd Chance Classics on Google.

Once I get his plate/bushing in I will know better what else I need. Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted.Call
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