I meant as only a comparison between additives from someone not working for an additive company. I didn't realize Schafer's was the only additive accepted on FTE.

 

And not to bust Cleatus' chops too badly, but if additives didn't work, the diesel fuel companies wouldn't actually add them in the winter months. I am not disagreeing with the premise that there are some additive companies that have concoctions with some questionable formulas and good marketing campaigns. There are. But to make a blanket statement insinuating the useless nature of all additives in general, is a bit disingenuous or misinformed, at best. Wouldn't Diesel 911 be considered an additive? Does anyone that has had the misfortune to need that particular additive and have used it effectively want to dispute it's ability to get things moving once again?

 

It's not, I just know there are several former reps for that particular company that are very informed on the subject, that post here regularly. I know 1 in particular who lives in a very cold climate who has done some of his own testing and has some good illustrative pictures to prove what anti-gel can do.

Paging White Buffalo...

 

I gelled 2x last winter. I had never had that problem before. It was somewhere between the engine and tank or in tank. My pre filter and engine filter were both liquid. I put 911 and watched the fuel pressure climb. In am also an advocate that a fuel pressure gauge is ONE of the MOST important gauges. It was one of my last to buy but now is possibly my favorite.

 

I wasn't looking to get into a debate about additives. I will say I've not used Schafer's but heard good things.

On a different note, everyone is entitled to there own. I actually work for Chevron oil at the LA refinery, it's pretty cool I get to say I make the diesel in my truck I don't make it a habit of telling people to use one fuel over another or one additive because it turns into a debate.

 

Totally agree, a fuel pressure gauge is worth the investment. I need to get mine put in this spring.

The only time I've ever had issues with gelling was last year when I tried Howes Diesel Treatment. That stuff was absolute garbage! I couldn't keep any of our tractors or trucks running when it got below zero, yet all of the truck stops stock it.

Ditched the Howes, went back to the white bottle of Power Service and no more problems. Just make sure you start adding it before the cold sets in, otherwise you'll be needing some Diesel 911.

 

Right on the mark Dave......

When using an anti-gelling additive it must be in the fuel before the fuel temps reach the cloud point. Which is around 22-25 degrees F. Once the wax crystals have started to attach to each other and the fuel becomes cloudy you can add all the additive you want but you are too late. The anti-gelling additives will do a great job at preventing the wax crystals from combining, but they do not do so well at getting them to break up after combining. Once the process has started it is either a bottle of 911 or a heated garage.

after the fuel clouds without additive - keep a bottle of 911 close and add it in at the first sign of a power loss.

The cold snap in early November caught many of us by surprise. We were at the tail end of harvest and thought we had time to get our hands on some anti-gelling additive from our Schaeffer's rep. So the day before the cold temps hit we had some friends come through and we got enough additive for all the tractors & pick-ups. But we didn't get additive in one tractor because of the - "I thought you put it, no I thought you put it in" situation. The next morning, that one tractor gelled up 1/2 mile down the road.....some 911 in the filter and in the tank did the trick.

 

How's didn't fair so well in the sub zero temps........

 

Huh, well that sure beats me then. When I read the labels, the Howes claimed to be good to -30F whereas the Power Service claimed to be good to -40F. I figured that was the difference...

 

Sorry to hear that milehi_350, but you were given or bought the wrong additive. Nuetra isn't gonna do much for lowering the cloud or gell point at all. Maybe by 5 degrees - if that.

The correct additive would have been Dieseltreat 2000 Winter or Arctic Shield. The Arctic Shield might be a bit less expensive than the Dieseltreat Winter but the dieseltreat winter has additional additives for lubrication & cetane like the Nuetra.

 

Rich,
Is the blueish green at the top of the jars the wax? Why does the Power service look worse that the untreated?

 

I hear ya, but the problem in this situation isn't an outright lie, but not revealing the big picture.

Before I rant:

1. I worked for Schaeffer Oil for @ 4 years, that ended in 2010.
2. I do not make any $ selling additives or oil
3. I get nothing out of it, just passing on some of the things I have learned while taking classes and attending training.


Here's the situation as I see it. All the manufacturers are trying to make a products that works and makes $. There are certain standards and rules that must be met. One being the Winter Diesel Fuel Specifications.

Point 1:

In the United States there Federal ASTM D 975 standard does not specify the cold flow requirements of diesel fuel or a specific Cold Filter Plug Point. It says that the cloud point be no more than 6°C higher than the 10th percentile minimum ambient temperature for the month the fuel will be used. The 10th percentile temperature corresponds to the minimum temperature that would be reached no more than 3 days out of 30 for the month in question.
Confusing??

sure is -

the point is - the formula is based on using average temperatures. So if we get a wicked below average cold month like we did in November, you can run into trouble. Not only because of the requirement, but also getting an effective product to market on short notice. This might explain the situation JT250 ran into last winter, when he didn't have problems the previous winters when the temps were closer to the averages. Last winter was fracking cold.

Then if the state requires certain specifications - like Minnesota does with requiring a 5% Bio mix - that makes things a bit more complicated.

Many other countries just have a specific #. For example, Germany requires the fuel Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP the temp at which a filter will become plugged/clogged) to be -20 degrees C from Nov - Feb, and Norway is at -34 C.

Point #2

The label information on additive bottles & tanks at the gas station can be misleading.

A fuel additive or pump sticker claims that the product is good to -20 degrees F. Well it might be and probably is according to the ASTM D6371 test. But our vehicles and just about all the newer ones don't match the specifications in that test. But the manufacturer met the standard........

I've used this example before, IMO it's a good one. When we sent our fuel out to be tested these are the results that came back.

CFPP = cold filter plug point
CP = cloud point



The fuel in this above ground tank was double treated with Schaeffer's Winterized Dieseltreat, 1:1,000 instead of 1:2,000. The Cold Filter Plug Point tested to -22 degrees F. Awesome!!!

NOT!

The ASTM D6371 uses a 40 micro filter. IIRC the filter in the 7.3L fuel bowl is @ 14 microns. So the 14 micron filter would plug sooner. Some of the newer vehicles have a 2 micron filter so they will plug even sooner.. In my 7.3L's I have run this fuel in temps down to -15 F without issue, but the vehicle was parked in a 40 degree garage before hitting the road. My brother in laws tractors have been fine the last 4 years with this fuel & additive mixture.

================================================== ===================================

So what is the average consumer supposed to believe? We don't know what the test specifications are and unless a knowledgeable salesperson explains the details we will just be playing the odds.

Bottom line, let the buyer beware - know the rules before you play the game. If you're worried I would recommend a 50/50 mix of #1 diesel (kerosene) and #2 when the temps go below -10F. If you can, park it in a garage or shed. That way you are starting out with warmer fuel. The fuel return line will continue to add warm fuel back into the tank as well.

 

Paul, the wax drops to the bottom. Here is a link to a gel test I did with various additives & fuels (#1 and #2) a few years ago (the one Jason referred to). Not a very scientific method but the pics of clear jars of diesel fuel & additives will give you a good idea of what happens.......

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...schaeffer.html

Here is one sample that looked like peanut butter......


(click to enlarge)

 

Okay

1. # 1 diesel is just Kerosene? How is #2 different?

2. If someone were to look in the fuel bowl and not SEE gelled fuel that doesn't mean there aren't wax particles stuck in the filter. Is this a correct assumption? I never though about this until today reading.

3. I decided last year I will just always add winter Diesel Kleen in the winter. Better safe than sorry!

 

Great post, White Buffalo, lots of good information that is definitely rep worthy. A bit of a grim reminder how low our specs are for fuel in this country.

Just the other day I saw lots of stations with #2 blend advertised 'good to -20F' and thought about skipping adding my own additives. Not anymore.