Deleted duplicate post

 

I don't know if this will work, but here's a post that was just submitted on the thread titled "TCI Chassis". There are some good pics provided of their chassis & how it ships as well as some helpful insight on what to look for when prepping your chassis.

Thanks for sharing:-)

(Additional Comment regarding Customer Service):
I have spoken to Steve at TCI & Rob at No Limits Engineering.....both are extremely knowledgeable and helpful when it comes to F100's b/c they both own one and have built several. They are both very helpful just their approach is different. From my perspective, Rob is the owner, designer, and sometimes the builder which is a lot of hats to wear & sometimes people with that many demands don't necessarily have the patience to deal with the demands that we general consumers can sometimes make. Rob doesn't seem to sugar coat much, but he seems to be extremely detail oriented and seems to offer technically sound advice or thoughts....but he's certainly not a warm & fuzzy salesperson type....and that is not necessarily a bad thing - it could actually be a really positive trait (this would take more than two 20 minute telephone conversations to validate).
Steve from TCI is very helpful and knowledgeable on their products as he is not just an employee, but a dedicated fan/user of TCI's products. I don't think Steve has to wear as many hats as Rob from NLE, so IMO Steve's approach to selling products is more relaxed. IMO neither, Rob or Steve, are going to try to "hard sell" you on anything that you don't already want.

Should Customer Service make a difference in your decision? I think so.
There's a lot of things that I really like about No Limit Engineering's chassis....including the fact (to AXRacer's comment) "Over engineered & built like a bridge"....I'm certainly not looking to buy a chassis that is "under engineered" or built as flexible as the stock frame. I really like the idea of that Big 10" steel frame pushed out to by doors & fending off any errant Miata that might want to come through my door at an intersection. I also like talking to the Owner...even if I can tell that he's annoyed with what maybe seems to him as a stupid question (I understand b/c I wear a lot of hats in my own life). So, if you are considering NLE chassis, then I would say that you shouldn't expect a new friend....but I did get direct & specific answers which I personally appreciate.
Steve from TCI is awesome and was very generous with his knowledge and a class act salesperson.

One other detail:
Both these companies use to be located in SoCal where I am as well. Like so many businesses, the State of California has decided to force them to relocate out of the state. NLE has recently relocated to Tennessee. This means that I would now have to pay higher freight charges to get a NLE chassis shipped to me whereas I could pick up directly from TCI.....however, I have to pay 8% State Sales Tax for a TCI chassis and I wouldn't incur that with NLE. So, as I walk myself through this, due to CA Sales Tax....TCI should probably also relocate out of CA as freight costs will probably be less, or equal to, sales tax.

I'm continuing my quest for knowledge and have decided to do the age old spreadsheet and compare them the best I can side by side. Probably can't get to it for a couple of days, but when I do I will try and share it on the thread. Does anyone have any idea how to get a spreadsheet displayed on here?

 

There's also the Roadster Shop and their "REVO IFS" Chassis

Here's the companies video on how they build their frame:

 

So most of us are familiar with the centering of the wheel in the front fender opening by moving the axle forward 1" to 1 1/4", but what about moving it forward 4" to 5"?
It seems that two things are accomplished by doing so:
1) Wheelbase is lengthen - Which I would think would improve ride & handling characteristics
2) Balances the front fender with the proportions & balance of the rear fenders.

For me, the first time I ever saw this was on Chip Foose's '56. It's been done several other times and here's some examples:
A). Shelby inspired "Snakebit" (sold for $450,000) check out their photo album
B) Roadster Shop has done it several times
1953 Ford F100 - Behind The Scenes At The Roadster Shop

My body guy doesn't do the internet, so I accumulated the info in this document so I could print it off and give to him. There are pics and links to several of the builds and how they did the sheet metal work
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...p=docslist_api

Does anyone have any thoughts on this modification or things to consider?

 

I have always thought the out of position wheel opening and wheel were a unique thing that gave the f100 some character and makes it different from other year trucks, but i will admit it does look pretty good when its done. Its really just a matter of which you think looks better.

 

like a wedged hood, it's one of those things that makes people scratch their heads. They know something is different but it usually takes them a while to figure it out. I like little details like that.

As to the question of the custom frame: I have no experience with NLE, but have some with the TCI. I have helped install TCI components and suspension packages for hot rods and early Mustangs. In my opinion they are a class act selling/servicing high quality products.

My next project will not involve rust. I want to build a vehicle from the ground up. I'm looking at early 30's Ford coups but would consider another mid 50's truck. Either way, it will most likely have a TCI chassis.

 

Here's a spreadsheet where I placed TCI, No Limit Engineering, Roadster Shop, & Art Morrison side by side to the best of my ability.

1953-1956 Ford F100 Chassis Manufacturers compared

There's a couple more out there and I just couldn't think of them at this time. Let me know if you can think of another manufacturer.

Hope this is helpful to anyone considering a new chassis for their old truck

 

Totally agree.
I'm currently unsure if I want to do the wedge hood, but I do like the idea of the longer wheel base.
TCI would probably be my first choice, but I am really drawn to the NLE chassis due to the frame rails being pushed outside of the cab space (will have two teen drivers in my house) & something more than just sheet metal protecting the cab space holds real value to me. I list some of my other reasons on the bottom of the Chassis Builders Comparison Spreadsheet that I just posted above.
I do wish that I wasn't on the beginning of the adoption curve for the NLE design. They have several chassis out there but they haven't been offering full chassis as long as TCI so lack a install base to obtain actual users 3rd party endorsements or even general build feedback.

 

IMHO in you zeal to promote the NLE chassis you brushed off the best chassis out there, the Art Morrison.
AME indeed has a package priced chassis @ 8323.00
ALL chassis are custom built, none of the manufacturers stock premade chassis for every vehicle, engine, suspension combo. IMHO I would want to be able to pick and choose from a laundry list of options rather than a one size fits all.
AME chassis are computer designed for each vehicle and option.
AME is not a 1 man shop making one product. They employ a large number of people from suspension design engineers to welders.
AME is the only manufacturer that is primarily concerned with suspension design and performance, engineering and manufacturing complete suspensions using their own custom computer software.
AME has done far more testing than any manufacturer, not just of frame bending strength vs the built to flex OEM chassis (a very stacked deck meaningless "test"). Any first year automotive or structural engineering student knows that a box is far stiffer than an open C channel on it's side. Hence it take a 10" C channel to approach the strength of a 6" box tube. AME finds no reason to fill up the space between the rails with a HUGE X member to keep the rails from collapsing in on themselves. The stiffest frame out there isn't going to perform well with outdated suspension designed for a 70's econobox grocery getter and GM pickup. Just read thru their catalog to see all the testing and comparisons of all their suspension options.
AME has done their testing where it counts: Their original suspension design vs some of the best examples of streetable vehicles available, under controlled conditions by independent testers: the Super Chevy Magazine suspension challenge where it outperformed all but the ZO6 and Lambo Gallardo.
AME chassis are the choice of many of the top builders in the country. Who of major reputation beside NLE has used an NLE chassis?
Hardly anyone retains the OEM fuel tank but moves it to the rear.

 

AXracer.... So now I'm confused on your position.
Previously you said the NLE chassis was way over engineered & now you are saying that it is equal to something a first year engineering student would design??
I'm further confused b/c you have also basically said to just 'box the stock frame as it is good enough'?
For some reason it does seem that you do have some sort of an 'ax' to grind with the guy/company at NLE. Almost all of these companies have started with 1 guy...even Art Morrison. So I don't get why you are so put out by NLE, because they have certainly been trying to accomplish things & make these trucks look & run better. So, if you got some dirt to air on NLE, then please get it out in the open. I can understand someone having product preferences, but you have done nothing but drop negatives on them & their product...Is everything about their design all that wrong?

There are lots of good reviews and thoughts on the AME builds, but I just haven't spent the time to go through the process of having them quote a chassis build as it is my understanding they pretty much just want to produce chassis that are going to be used by pro-builders, which I am not one of. Can you point me in the direction of some of the testing of chassis that you are saying AME has done? I just haven't come across that information on my own and I am more than willing to consider it (Of course we all do realize that most information in catalogs is only there for two reason: To sell us something & represent that product in the best & most favorable of descriptions possible).
I have my doubts that "AME is the only manufacturer that is primarily concerned with suspension design and performance, engineering and manufacturing complete suspensions" unless you are sole speaking towards the fact they are using some sort of proprietary CAD type software.
I am totally open at looking at all the chassis options out there, at this point I'm just unclear as to your seemingly apparent grind against NLE.

Also, why you holding out on us? If you have all this insight on AME then it would have been welcomed (as it is now) earlier in the thread. So, Chuck what else you got? What do you feel would be the best set up/configuration to build a foundation under one of these slant cabs now that it's 2014?
If you were going to build one with a new chassis, then what would you be doing? I'm not talking for autocross. I'm talking about good street hot rod fun with a modern ride...and please include as many thoughts on safety that might be helpful b/c like I said, I will have two teenage drivers in my house soon enough and I want all of us to be able to drive it and enjoy it.

 

You are totally misinterpreting, confusing and misquoting my position. I don't have any "agenda" or prejudice against NLE, I don't know him nor have I had any personal dealings with him or his products. I do however have a fair amount of knowledge and experience with suspensions, especially pertaining to handling in autocross. I am pretty sure you originally said your desire was for a chassis (a chassis includes the frame and suspension) that would have excellent ride and handling on the street, Not to have the world's most overbuilt frame. If all that is important to you is the strength of the frame, then you have found the answer to your prayers in the NLE offering. However I am merely trying to make sure others are not misunderstanding what is important to ride and handling. The frame is primarily the support for the body and the attachment point for the suspension, it can be very light weight as long as it performs those two functions. the majority of modern street cars and many race cars do not have a frame at all, and in a number of them what replaces the function of the frame isn't even made of steel! Formula 1 cars, arguably the most sophisticated designed race cars in the world are made almost entirely of carbon fiber, in my Solstice it is made of two formed sheets of thin 24 ga sheet steel with plastic structural foam injected in between. The highly respected and coveted Morgan sports car has a frame but it is made of WOOD!
I said that IMHO the NLE frame is way overbuilt, not over engineered. An engineer (student or otherwise) knows that a boxed 2x6" OEM frame or one built of 2x6 rectangular tubing is stronger and more rigid than one made of 2x10" open C channel. The depth of the channel only increases the vertical strength at the expense of reducing its torsional rigidity. The channel in the NLE frame would easily collapse in or out or twist if it wasn't for the huge X member in the center. That same X member makes it difficult to install the drive train, exhaust etc.
Do I think The NLE design is "wrong"? As far as performing the basic function of a frame, NO, it does that. As a sophisticated, modern, advanced design chassis with significant superior advantages then YES, IMHO it is a throwback design with low tech suspension added.
If you want to learn about the testing done by AME on their complete chassis and suspension by themselves and independent testers and explanation of engineering that went into each part and comparisons of the options then just download their catalog and start reading.
AME has sold 1000s of chassis and clips, if they limited their market to pro builders that number would be more like less than 100.

If you are completely infatuated with LME's offering go with it, nothing more I can say will sway you and you will likely continue to try to justify your decision to others, so I'm out of here.

 

Wayne

Do you have plans to tie the 2 sides of the frame together where you separated the trans crossmember?
I just disassembled a 48 F-1 truck where this was done to accommodate a C-4 and the frame flexes way too much to leave as is The rear cab mounts were tweaked badly from frame flex

 

Agreed.. my 51 frame with the factory trans crossmember removed would twist just by stepping on a running board mount. I put in a piece of upside down 2"x4" steel "U" channel tying the tops of the frame rails together and it stiffened up things nicely, now if I step on the running board mount the suspension compresses instead of the rail twisting.

I think this arguing about aftermarket frames is pretty funny!
Especially the part about being concerned about a teenager driving the truck..like the frame will make a difference on how safe the truck is with a teenager driving. At that age when I was immortal I did enough street racing and stupid stuff that that frame would of just allowed me to push it harder I would be more concerned with putting in a roll bar!
And debating the fine differences between manufacturers? Who pushes their truck hard enough to be able to tell the difference? Will the truck flip over 5mph earlier with the weaker frame?
I must be insane driving my 1947 cadillac with a factory frame and $75 GM G body front clip. How the thing goes 70mph and actually stops is beyond me, and my 51 frame with the jag IFS? HOLY COW what am I thinking? How will this thing make it to the grocery store in one piece? And with my doors and hood flying open at every corner? I better get some more ratchet straps.
FWIW I think the aftermarket frames are a great way to save restoration time and cool to look at but nothing I build will ever need something like that. When the truck starts to feel like it is going to tip over I will just get off the gas and slow down. Built in sanity check!

Happy Turkey Day!!

 

Well OkieDokie - My ten reasons for a new frame.
Last May, on the street leading to my house and just one mile away, 5 teenagers died in a crash and part of the story in the paper was about the "modified" car b/c it had an aftermarket exhaust.
This October, 10 miles from my home, another 5 teenagers crashed - 4 died & the driver lived. I can only imagine the ongoing litigation in the aftermath of these two horribly unfortunate occurrences.
So, as a parent, raising teenagers in an urban area with bumper to bumper traffic moving at 70 mph with 30 million of my SoCal neighbors....my interest in turning a 60 year old "tractor with doors" into a sweet modern day vehicle with a few additional safety features is not anything to snear about. I want to build a truck that is as sticky to the road as possible & that has a perimeter style frame in the cab area.
Now, the people on this forum can either help this truck enthusiast or not. As much as this forum is about classic cars & trucks, let's not forget it ultimately is about the people. Forums like this are only interesting because most of us have our unique stories/reasons for building our trucks the way we do.

AXracer's points regarding the Art Morrison catalog was helpful to me as I didn't know that AME makes perimeter style chassis and I will be taking a closer look at their offering. Here's the link to their 2014 catalog & there is a ton of info & options in it http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/2014Cat-HighRes.pdf

So, DrpTop70SS will a new chassis make one of these trucks safer for a teenager? I would like to think so....especially if AXracer's Miata decides to t-bone them in an intersection. Pushing the frame out to the perimeter of the cab certainly might slow the intrusion at the doors...definitely more so than the stock H frame does especially when it's located half way under the drivers seat. I don't think there is any insanity in considering this as a viable option when going with a new chassis.

Now, I could cut up & modify a stock chassis as that is an option that many people have done. For me, by the time I install an IFS w/big brakes & power steering, weld in new motor mounts, install transmission supports, driveshaft loop, C-notch the rear....the little sections of stock C channel left from the original frame are hardly worth clinging on to....and become the weakest link in the build while still providing no more driver/passenger safety. I could spend a lot of time & effort patching together the stock frame to maybe save a couple of thousand, but in the scope of my interests & build that still wouldn't achieve one of my goals in the build. Additionally, if we ever decide to sell this truck a would be buyer would know exactly what they were buying....they would have the confidence in knowing that they weren't just buying a patch bucket of weld plates done by an unknown guy what just happened to have a $200 arc welder & paint (Wayne S. - I'm not saying that is what yours is at all as yours looks really clean in the pic).
There is little doubt in my mind that if two trucks where built identical in finish & the only thing that was different was the chassis "stock home mod" vs "AME's custom mandrel bent", the difference in resale value at auction would probably more than make up the difference in the price of buying a new chassis.

So, I'm going to be looking at Art Morrison Enterprise & No Limit Engineering chassis because they both offer chassis that are formed to cab's perimeter space. I'm even going to check into AME's new IRS system and if anyone has any thoughts/opinions on it then I would like to hear them.
If anyone has any experience with putting a perimeter designed chassis under one of these trucks then please let me know your thoughts & experiences. If you have more insights on any of the chassis builders out there then please let us know.

 

I don't see that much of a safety advantage to justify 15 K cost. approx 12 inches on each side at a cost of (guess) 600 an inch. These frames being approx 6-8" off ground, a car t-boning you at a pace say 35 mph will likely go over the frame to the extent to do some extensive damage. Of course I am saying the truck was not hit by a rice burner but one of the larger breeds that travel our roads in quite large numbers.
I say if that is what makes you feel good than that is what you should do, the only person you need to justify that to is yourself.