Rich, what was it you didn't like when towing with the Ex? It would seem like it has way more power? Or was it just the handling?

 

Maybe the word lag isn't the best word to use when describing the difference between certain turbo combinations.

The only experience I have with the T444E is when I would help our school out with servicing their buses. Some of them had the T444E and some had the 365. I never knew the turbo was different. But here is a thought. If the high torque version of the T444E uses 160 cc injectors than the 1.0 housing might be a better match to help balance EGT's & back pressure. Possibly trade off some lower rpm performance for higher rpm performance. After all, they outfitted the van turbo with a 1.15 A/R housing since it has no intercooler.

 

Well, it's not that I didn't like it, it's that I like highway towing with the F-250 setup better. Now having said that - this is all personal preference and would not cause me to change the setup on the Excursion at all.

The F-250 - towing with the van turbo & 175/146 inj's runs at 70mph, 2000 rpm, @ 5-7 lbs of boost on the flats in a zero wind situation. The boost gauge doesn't show any movement until 1500 rpm's from a stop (not pounding on the pedal but just a gradual acceleration). IMO it is a nicer setup to tow down the highway with the 5th wheel at 70-75 mph and get 11-13 mpg towing on a calm day.

The excursion builds boost much sooner and spools quicker (160/80 injectors, S366 turbo .91 A/R housing). I can hear the turbo spooling as I press the pedal, it's already at 2-3 lbs of boost prior to reaching 1500 rpm's during a gradual acceleration from stop. This makes it a great daily driver for me and an awesome road trip vehicle . But, it would also work well towing short trips around town or at my brother-in-law's farm. But highway towing at 75 mph the boost is higher, louder and (I assume) using more fuel. Whereas the F-250 with it's setup towing at 75 mph is more like a freight train on cruise control.

Hopefully this makes sense! If u lived closer u could just drive them and see........

 

You're not clearing things up for me.

So why don't the vans have bad lag?

Or does it just not show because they aren't towing as much as a pickup?

 

I'm good at that!

 

Maybe better terms would be:

early boost and later boost instead of lag.

The stock Superduty turbo (.84 Housing) will build boost earlier than the van turbo with all other things being equal. Resulting in better low-end torque and low engine speed boost response. More for towing some would say. But the stock turbo also has a wastegate to keep the turbo from overboosting and to keep the backpressure in check.

The van turbo (1.15 A/R Housing) is non-wastegated since it doesn't have to be concerned about higher back pressure like the stock turbo does. It builds boost later at higher engine speeds. Compared to the stock turbo it has a higher flow capacity and better power at higher engine speeds while sacrificing torque and turbo response at slow engine speeds.

So it really isn't about this or that turbo being laggy but more about where you want the powerband to be.

is this better??

Here is a great website:

Turbine housing A/R and sizing | Turbobygarrett

 

What compressor wheel did the T444E have in it? W.W. or the 9 blade ?
Rich you did a great job explaining the differences. And I agree that two trucks with the same turbo set up could work well for one guy but not the other depending on how he drives it and what weight & where he tows. I have been doing alot of reading here lately on different turbo set up's for the GTP38. I also have read everything that Garrett has online at least 3 times and the only part I am having a hard time figuring out is the compressor mapping. Actually I do have a basic understanding and I am trying to do the math to confirm that what I am about to do to my turbo is going to work for my needs. But I think I am going to have to reread this part a few more times before it sinks in.
Compressor Maps | Turbobygarrett
But as you have stated there are about 6 different compressor wheels out there so it makes it hard to just go by the trim to figure out flow. And at the very bottom of the page it points this out.
Wheel Trim | Turbobygarrett
Now these issues might be better to be gone over in the thread I posted on the subject of Turbo 101.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...ing-facts.html

So to actually address the subject of this thread I am running a E99 with 1.0 turbine, Turbo Master w.g. actuator with a stock W.W and stock compressor housing. With a E99 you don't have choices for compressor housings. As far towing at highway speeds it is a major improvement over the .84 housing and stock w.g. actuator. So instead of using the term lag. I'll word it as it spools up later since the lower drive pressure has moved the compressor mapping to the left. I hope I am correct with that statement and if I am wouldn't that also move the surge line to the left. Please correct me if I am wrong on this. So if it moves the surge line to the left wouldn't that move the surge to even a lower rpm to the point that boost/rpms would be a mute point as long as you didn't lug the motor under load.

Mind you the E99 in stock form spooled up right out of the hole but was a real pain to tow at highways due to the amount of back pressure the w.g. would open then it would down shift and back and forth in traffic where I couldn't hold my speed. Never have I had a surge problem.

So who has run a 1.0 turbine housing, stock 9 blade wheel and stock compressor housing? Because if so did you have surge? At what rpm under load or boost level was it at? It will help to prove or disprove the theory I have about the mapping.

 

It's a 9-blade looks to be just like the stock wheel.

 

Thanks for getting back to me on that !! I was thinking it would have the 9 blade because the 9 blade moves more air then a W.W. Now you asked why the T444E doesn't have a surge problem? And I was thinking about that and since this engine has been put in so many different applications I sure it was am issue in some trucks. So it would be interesting to know if IH used a WW in some truck or buss applications. I'll bet if they did it would be a buss. But in most cases I would think some of the reasons the T444E didn't have surge are due to the gearing & tuning of the truck/ buss and the rpm range that they run in. I am sure IH & Garrett spent alot of R&D to get the turbo compressor mapping dailed in for the T444E.

Did you install the T444E turbo on your truck ? If so how does it do for your needs?

Now many guys say that even if you run a 1.0 or 1.10 housing that you still need a ported compressor housing to avoid getting surge. But I see very little facts that it is true. What I mean by that is I have of very few cases of someone running the combo of a 1.0 housing, stock compressor housing and a 9 blade and ending up with surge. You would also need to factor in the guys driving style, gears and tuning. I think in some cases different tuning and fueling rates contribute to surging because tuning effects the compressor mapping and moving it to the right. Mind you this is just a theory I have. Actually it is just another question I have for Garrett. I plan on emailing them a few questions and see if they can or will answer them for me. But I want to do more reading and learning before I ask any questions.

I myself am planning on adding a BD billet 9 blade to my E99 with a 1.0 housing, Hi flow outlet, stock compressor housing, T.M. wg and EBPV delete. The BD says it has extended tips 9 blade that cures surging. Here are the only dyno facts I can find on the BD billet
BD Billet Compressor Wheel 1994-03 7.3L Ford Powerstroke Replaces Wicked Wheel
Brother Roland hooked me up with this wheel (Thanks Roland) Him and I looked at my set up, the #'s and the fact that I run stock tuning. In theory it should cure my issues without causing any ill effects. If all goes well which I am pretty sure it will. I will have milked the stock E99 turbo for all it is worth short of going to a D66. And if I was going to spend the money on a D66 I would rather spend a few more bucks and go with a S366 / T4 set up. Or should I say a S300 series in some configuration that would suit my needs.

 

I don't know but there are several different horsepower configurations of the 444, may have been different turbo configurations as well. I've driven a lot of small dump trucks with the 444 and it always seems like the manuals are kind of laggy but the automatics spool up and go which made me think maybe the stall speed on van torque converters is higher than the pickups to help deal with lag, anybody know?
I haven't yet because I want to keep the EBPV so I've been looking for an EBPV outlet for it. I just bought one last week attached to a complete van turbo for $80. Now that I have all the parts I want I'll proceed with the switch.

Parts shelf is getting heavier.

 

Left, right - confuses me all the time . I guess I just tend to focus on the efficiency islands and at what power level I tend to drive in the most. The surge line on a compressor map is defined as the the point at which the compressor becomes to big and there wouldn't be enough exhaust gasses to drive the turbine and generate desire boost. The surge line on a compressor map is a bit different from "turbo surge" experienced while towing.

So, if you increase the turbine A/R you should cause the points at which "turbo surge" and the surge line occurs to a higher rpm or power level since it will take a higher exhaust gas flow to move the turbine wheel compared the the previous setup. But you really shouldn't be referring to the same compressor map when comparing since the compressor map no longer is valid since the turbine housing was changed.

Did this help or did I not get your question?

Here is a great You Tube video on how to read and plot points on a turbo compressor map.


Hope this helps

 

Sounds like you have enough turbos that you can try all kinds of set ups. I'm sure you have enough parts to make a combo that will work for your needs. Please let us know what set up you end up using. If you end up going into the van turbo please measure the turbine wheels inducer/ exducer and overall height to compare to a truck one. I know someone was saying that the 2 turbine wheels were different. But when I went looking to back that up with facts I couldn't find 2 different turbine wheels for the GTP38. That doesn't mean it isn't out there I just couldn't find it.

Thanks Rich for your input. Yes this does help I was a$$ backwards as far as the left to right of the mapping. As I am trying to get a handle on figuring out compressor mapping it is like trying to pour a 12oz beer into a shot glass ...it only works one shot at a time. So thanks for the video link it is one more shot glass worth of me understanding. Actually I don't think I am smart enough to actually get it. I think I might be better off going old school and doing the trial and error method When I use to have a Turbo Coupe 2.3 I had tried about 8 different combo's of turbos before I got it right. But that was an easy turbo to change. I dread doing the turbo on my truck not that it is hard to do, it is just a pain in the rear to get to with my old butt.

Thanks for helping Special ED out !!

 

There are three differences, all on the exhaust side. A van uses a 1.15 a/r non wastegated exhaust housing and a pick-up uses a .84 a/r wastegated housing.

Because of the different housings the outlet flange that connects the turbo to the exhaust pipe is different.

Also the exhaust wheel is different. Actually the wheels start life as the same but are trimmed differently.

A truck turbine wheel has a 76.20mm inducer and a 67.73mm exducer (79 trim).

The van turbo turbine wheel has a 76.20mm inducer and a 69.84mm exducer (84 trim).

Stock compressor wheel = 60mm inducer and an 80mm exduce

 

The trim on the ex turbine is different from the van to the pick-up. Van being "larger"...as in you can't fit a van ex turbine in a pick-up ex housing. I know this firsthand.