1965 F250 352 top end rebuild questions
#1
1965 F250 352 top end rebuild questions
Hi All, I recently received an old 1965 F250 camper Special truck from a dear friend before his passing. He owned the truck since 1980 and road it hard early on including multiple cross country trips in it.
This truck has sat for about three years and driven VERY little at least 7 years before that. Shortly after receiving the truck it lost power, I had to limp home, no knocking sounds just complete loss of power. I then did a compression test and found 7 cylinders at ~145 psi +/- 10 except #8 at 20 psi. I then pulled the valve cover and found the push rod on #8 was severely bent and no longer connected to the rocker arm. Upon further inspection I found all but one of the intake push rods were severely bent not just #8 cylinder.
I have decided now is the time to rebuild the top end. I pulled the heads and took them into a machine shop where they replaced all valves, and resurfaced the heads. I also gave them my intake to stick in their hot tank to clean up the grease and grim. This relieved two large cracks and a very red surface indicating the intake got very HOT. Further reason to rebuild the top end. I now plan to purchase a new Edelbrock Performer intake, and Edelbrock 4 barrel Performer carb. This is where I finally get to my question...The cam. I am guessing after doing the heads, intake, (it has headers), and carb, then I will have to upgrade the came and replace the lifters as well. I have no experience with cams and do not understand what to look for to know what to upgrade to. Is there anyone experienced with a similar setup as mine and can help? Thanks!
This truck has sat for about three years and driven VERY little at least 7 years before that. Shortly after receiving the truck it lost power, I had to limp home, no knocking sounds just complete loss of power. I then did a compression test and found 7 cylinders at ~145 psi +/- 10 except #8 at 20 psi. I then pulled the valve cover and found the push rod on #8 was severely bent and no longer connected to the rocker arm. Upon further inspection I found all but one of the intake push rods were severely bent not just #8 cylinder.
I have decided now is the time to rebuild the top end. I pulled the heads and took them into a machine shop where they replaced all valves, and resurfaced the heads. I also gave them my intake to stick in their hot tank to clean up the grease and grim. This relieved two large cracks and a very red surface indicating the intake got very HOT. Further reason to rebuild the top end. I now plan to purchase a new Edelbrock Performer intake, and Edelbrock 4 barrel Performer carb. This is where I finally get to my question...The cam. I am guessing after doing the heads, intake, (it has headers), and carb, then I will have to upgrade the came and replace the lifters as well. I have no experience with cams and do not understand what to look for to know what to upgrade to. Is there anyone experienced with a similar setup as mine and can help? Thanks!
#2
OldFordFun Welcome to and Slicks Forum.
I don't know how your funds are, but I don't think I would do a top end rebuild only on this engine from what you have described. Intake failure is not something that we read about every day.
Adding a RV cam is certainly a plus and don't go large on the 4 barrel.
John
I don't know how your funds are, but I don't think I would do a top end rebuild only on this engine from what you have described. Intake failure is not something that we read about every day.
Adding a RV cam is certainly a plus and don't go large on the 4 barrel.
John
#3
I had an intake manifold burn through internally at the crossover where it was not visible. Cylinders 4&7 would not fire because of contamination from the exhaust. It took me weeks to find the problem. Junking that intake is a good idea.
If you have 145# in all 8 that is a pretty good indicator that the bottom of the motor is ok. Is oil pressure good?
I have used the Comp DEH 256 on two 352's with good results. It works well with the low CR and cast ex manifolds.
Eric
If you have 145# in all 8 that is a pretty good indicator that the bottom of the motor is ok. Is oil pressure good?
I have used the Comp DEH 256 on two 352's with good results. It works well with the low CR and cast ex manifolds.
Eric
#4
Thanks for the welcoming and the replies. The funds are never good and I could probably get by with replacing the pushrods and intake manifold and call it good. I however have a problem where when something breaks rather then just fix whats wrong I look at it as an opportunity for upgrade. As for the carb I was planning on running a 600 - 650 cfm.
6t6merc: Correction, all cylinders where good EXCEPT #8 was down to 20 psi. I can't tell you with confidence that oil pressure was good before I torn the truck down.
Here is what I was looking at as far as the camshaft goes...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ed...view/make/ford
Dustin
6t6merc: Correction, all cylinders where good EXCEPT #8 was down to 20 psi. I can't tell you with confidence that oil pressure was good before I torn the truck down.
Here is what I was looking at as far as the camshaft goes...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ed...view/make/ford
Dustin
#5
#6
Thanks for the welcoming and the replies. The funds are never good and I could probably get by with replacing the pushrods and intake manifold and call it good. I however have a problem where when something breaks rather then just fix whats wrong I look at it as an opportunity for upgrade. As for the carb I was planning on running a 600 - 650 cfm.
6t6merc: Correction, all cylinders where good EXCEPT #8 was down to 20 psi. I can't tell you with confidence that oil pressure was good before I torn the truck down.
Here is what I was looking at as far as the camshaft goes...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ed...view/make/ford
Dustin
6t6merc: Correction, all cylinders where good EXCEPT #8 was down to 20 psi. I can't tell you with confidence that oil pressure was good before I torn the truck down.
Here is what I was looking at as far as the camshaft goes...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ed...view/make/ford
Dustin
Running numbers on Cam Quest to get an idea of projected power with certain cams the Comp Cam DEH255 and H252 pop up as best for my application. The H252 gives me 5 ft lb. more than the DEH 255 at 2000 rpm. Perfect for me. I know Jowilker is not a big fan of headers so I ran the numbers with them also. FE are helped tremendously with headers as torque jumped 45 ft. lbs. at 2000 rpm and that was with my 350cfm 2bbl Autolite. To be exact 413 ft. lb. @ 2000 rpm.
#7
I agree with those who suggest a complete engine rebuild; then everything will have the same birthday (more or less) and be in tolerance. As regards cam choice I agree with TBM3 on deciding what you want your engine to do and then choosing accordingly. Comp Cams, for one, will custom grind a cam to your specs at no additional cost. In my case, I'd just built a 390 with hydraulic roller cam, aluminum big valve heads, roller rockers, etc. I told the Comp Cams rep what I wanted (gobs of low end torque) and they made it for me. I would think Crane and Isky and other cam grinders would do the same. TBM3: John has some Hooker Super Comps on at least one of his trucks so he can't be totally anti-headers.
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#8
The cylinder with 20# might have had a bad valve. Did the cyl head rebuild fix it? If not, you have to go into the motor.
I agree with my brethren that the cam you suggest is too much. The one I suggested provides usable power at 1000 rpm and goes to well beyond where you want to spin a stock 352.
Eric
I agree with my brethren that the cam you suggest is too much. The one I suggested provides usable power at 1000 rpm and goes to well beyond where you want to spin a stock 352.
Eric
#9
To answer the question why not rebuild top and bottom end. The problem with that is I am moving at the end of the month and was hoping to get the truck up and running in the next couple weeks. I am not sure I could do that if I go for a complete rebuild. My thought was I would rebuild the top end and later go after the bottom end.
As for what the truck will be used for. This will be by no means a daily driver, mostly a farm truck, and used to tow heavy loads as well haul heavy loads in the bed of the truck, and to transport my dirtbike. It sounds like the general recommendation is go all or nothing. I know I have to replace the intake now that I have found the crack so it only made sense to upgrade the carb at the same time. I have included a couple pictures that show what I have found so far.
When I had the valve replaced none of them should any signs of being bent.
(I hope this pictures work)
A couple others things to consider when I put everything back together. I will be adding headers, as well as upgrading the mufflers, they have major holes in them.
Thank you for all the input thus far. I have done many motorcycle rebuilds but this is my first major automotive engine project. I am very capable but just looking for some input/advice from those who have been down this road.
So I guess my question now is should I continue down the road of replacing intake, carb, camshaft, or wait for a complete rebuild and for now replace the stock intake and call it good?
As for what the truck will be used for. This will be by no means a daily driver, mostly a farm truck, and used to tow heavy loads as well haul heavy loads in the bed of the truck, and to transport my dirtbike. It sounds like the general recommendation is go all or nothing. I know I have to replace the intake now that I have found the crack so it only made sense to upgrade the carb at the same time. I have included a couple pictures that show what I have found so far.
When I had the valve replaced none of them should any signs of being bent.
(I hope this pictures work)
A couple others things to consider when I put everything back together. I will be adding headers, as well as upgrading the mufflers, they have major holes in them.
Thank you for all the input thus far. I have done many motorcycle rebuilds but this is my first major automotive engine project. I am very capable but just looking for some input/advice from those who have been down this road.
So I guess my question now is should I continue down the road of replacing intake, carb, camshaft, or wait for a complete rebuild and for now replace the stock intake and call it good?
#10
#11
I understand your dilemma, wanting to get it cobbled together in a hurry for your move, but I'm afraid I'd recommend you tow it to your new home and take your time with a full rebuild. If you get in a hurry you'll just make a mistake somewhere (I would anyway) that you wouldn't have made with no pressure on you, and that would cost more time and money. What if you have bad rings on the low cylinder? When you change cams you'll want new lifters, push rods, maybe rocker arms? Are the pedestals and shafts worn? Don't do it in a hurry. In my humble opinion, anyway. Good luck with whatever you do.
#12
I haven't pulled the front end off yet to check timing, I was kinda waiting to decide if I want to replace the cam or not before pulling the front end off.
The pushrods that bent where all intake pushrods, if the timing did jump would I expect to see bent on intake and exhaust? Also how would it ran. This truck did run in this condition and made no engine knocking just had no power.
All valve looked straight as can be, I meant to take a picture of that.
The pushrods that bent where all intake pushrods, if the timing did jump would I expect to see bent on intake and exhaust? Also how would it ran. This truck did run in this condition and made no engine knocking just had no power.
All valve looked straight as can be, I meant to take a picture of that.
#13
Were those push rods all on the same side or were they random?
Cheers
#14
To answer the question why not rebuild top and bottom end. The problem with that is I am moving at the end of the month and was hoping to get the truck up and running in the next couple weeks. I am not sure I could do that if I go for a complete rebuild. My thought was I would rebuild the top end and later go after the bottom end.
As for what the truck will be used for. This will be by no means a daily driver, mostly a farm truck, and used to tow heavy loads as well haul heavy loads in the bed of the truck, and to transport my dirtbike. It sounds like the general recommendation is go all or nothing. I know I have to replace the intake now that I have found the crack so it only made sense to upgrade the carb at the same time. I have included a couple pictures that show what I have found so far.
When I had the valve replaced none of them should any signs of being bent.
(I hope this pictures work)
A couple others things to consider when I put everything back together. I will be adding headers, as well as upgrading the mufflers, they have major holes in them.
Thank you for all the input thus far. I have done many motorcycle rebuilds but this is my first major automotive engine project. I am very capable but just looking for some input/advice from those who have been down this road.
So I guess my question now is should I continue down the road of replacing intake, carb, camshaft, or wait for a complete rebuild and for now replace the stock intake and call it good?
As for what the truck will be used for. This will be by no means a daily driver, mostly a farm truck, and used to tow heavy loads as well haul heavy loads in the bed of the truck, and to transport my dirtbike. It sounds like the general recommendation is go all or nothing. I know I have to replace the intake now that I have found the crack so it only made sense to upgrade the carb at the same time. I have included a couple pictures that show what I have found so far.
When I had the valve replaced none of them should any signs of being bent.
(I hope this pictures work)
A couple others things to consider when I put everything back together. I will be adding headers, as well as upgrading the mufflers, they have major holes in them.
Thank you for all the input thus far. I have done many motorcycle rebuilds but this is my first major automotive engine project. I am very capable but just looking for some input/advice from those who have been down this road.
So I guess my question now is should I continue down the road of replacing intake, carb, camshaft, or wait for a complete rebuild and for now replace the stock intake and call it good?
My 352 did the exact same thing yours did, I had the heads rebuilt replaced the pushrods and put it back together, no problems. ( my truck also sat for awhile too) Now 10 years later I have it on the engine stand to rebuild it and upgrade it.
#15
Just wanted to give an update and discuss further road blocks on getting this old truck on the road again. I decided I would replace the necessary for now and later down the road I can get crazy with a full rebuild.
I got new push rods, heads completely rebuilt, $1100 yikes!, next was a replacement manifold. There is an amazing junk yard locally that has a HUGE selection of old Fords. Walking through the yard my friend opens the back of a van and there is a complete 352 motor with tranny. Someone had written on the air cleaner with pencil "63 fire bird" but the valve covers where stamped Mercury, anyway the intake manifold matched perfectly, The engine was very clean most likely was in a car.
I spent the next day installing heads, intake manifold, pushrods, rocker arms.... One thing I didn't realize at first is the four bolts that hold down the rocker arm assembly have one bolt that is unique from the other three. It is slightly longer and has a taper to it. This must be installed in the correct location! You also must preload the rocker arms when torquing to spec. Alright Fast forward, I finished assembly of the reaming parts and went to fire the truck up for the first time. She fired! I let it run for minutes while I adjusted to carb and distributor, I noticed the truck was a little loud as I could hear some valve chatter. I pulled the valve covers and NO oil in the top end!
I then pulled the distributor to attempt to manually turn the oil pump to get oil to the top end. (This can be done with 1/4 socket and drill turning the shaft counter clock wise) After pulling the distributor I find that the distributor drive shaft is lose and with a magnet I can could pull it out without any resistance. With the shaft in place I can also spin it with the 1/4 socket and do not feel it catch. Maybe time for a new oil pump.
Second issue I ran into. I pulled my dip stick to take a look at the oil and it had a caramel color to it. Looks like I may be towing the truck to the new house after all http://images.ford-trucks.com/forums...lies2/rotz.gif
Do answer one of the previous questions, the push rods where bent on both sides of the block. Looking at my shop manual I was able to determine it was all but 1 of the intake pushrods that bent.
I got new push rods, heads completely rebuilt, $1100 yikes!, next was a replacement manifold. There is an amazing junk yard locally that has a HUGE selection of old Fords. Walking through the yard my friend opens the back of a van and there is a complete 352 motor with tranny. Someone had written on the air cleaner with pencil "63 fire bird" but the valve covers where stamped Mercury, anyway the intake manifold matched perfectly, The engine was very clean most likely was in a car.
I spent the next day installing heads, intake manifold, pushrods, rocker arms.... One thing I didn't realize at first is the four bolts that hold down the rocker arm assembly have one bolt that is unique from the other three. It is slightly longer and has a taper to it. This must be installed in the correct location! You also must preload the rocker arms when torquing to spec. Alright Fast forward, I finished assembly of the reaming parts and went to fire the truck up for the first time. She fired! I let it run for minutes while I adjusted to carb and distributor, I noticed the truck was a little loud as I could hear some valve chatter. I pulled the valve covers and NO oil in the top end!
I then pulled the distributor to attempt to manually turn the oil pump to get oil to the top end. (This can be done with 1/4 socket and drill turning the shaft counter clock wise) After pulling the distributor I find that the distributor drive shaft is lose and with a magnet I can could pull it out without any resistance. With the shaft in place I can also spin it with the 1/4 socket and do not feel it catch. Maybe time for a new oil pump.
Second issue I ran into. I pulled my dip stick to take a look at the oil and it had a caramel color to it. Looks like I may be towing the truck to the new house after all http://images.ford-trucks.com/forums...lies2/rotz.gif
Do answer one of the previous questions, the push rods where bent on both sides of the block. Looking at my shop manual I was able to determine it was all but 1 of the intake pushrods that bent.