Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L)
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L) Diesel Topics Only

Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #16  
Old 09-03-2014, 03:17 PM
JeffStrachan's Avatar
JeffStrachan JeffStrachan is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
JeffStrachan is starting off with a positive reputation.
Clean is...

Click the image to open in full size.



Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.


Hours in front of the parts washer. That's ok though, it's legal here in Colorado to enjoy that kind of work.

Oh, you mean the piston bores, don't you. I think I need to go at that again as I have more like horizontal scratches rather than 45/135 cross hatching. But I will get them clean, clean, clean after that.

Pics go where they go. 1st is 2nd ring gap. 2nd is top ring gap. 3rd pic is broken spring on left (#6), new spring in middle and existing spring from #8. It was an exhaust spring that broke.

The rest of the pics are mostly just all the clean parts. I didn't clean the oil squirters yet, but they were off before my honing accident. I hit the rough edge of one of the counterweights. (At least that's what I keep telling myself. That will make it so, right? )

The bottom is of my turbo, exhaust setup. Everything I've cleaned/refurbed/touched before I usually paint. So, you can see that I never had that left exhaust header off before. I knew something was amiss on that side. Now I know what it was.

BTW, that bolt sticking in the crossover pipe goes where the EGT sensor is supposed to be. I think I busted it off when I was doing suspension work. Does anyone know where I can get one of those, cheap?

It looks like my ring gaps are juuust within tolerance. I only checked #8. It showed a bore of 4.109 inches. I wonder about the margin of (human) error and that HF caliper. The rings I got are .020 over and are too big.

I've got some parts coming from RockAuto. I need to get some plastigauge but that's one of those things I can get without driving off the mountain. I'm not in a super-rural area but is a good 25 minute drive to HF. I'm going to have at LEAST one more parts purchase cycle with RA as I haven't even looked at my transmission since I pulled it. (Well, I did actually powerwash it yesterday, so I guess I was looking at it.)

I think I have a trip to the boneyard in my future.

That's all for now. I was planning to get more pics in but I thought I'd get some feedback on the ring gaps. I'm still leaning to putting it back together with the parts that were on there. I do want to get some closeups of the pushronds and lifters though, to solicit comments about their condition.
__________________
1993 F350XLT 4x4 Crew Cab, 4" SuperLift, ATS Turbo; 2000 VW Golf TDI; 1993 BlueBird 5.9 Cummins; 1985 Porsche 928S
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-03-2014, 03:28 PM
Skip1970's Avatar
Skip1970 Skip1970 is offline
Semper Fi MOFO!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Alaska #1
Posts: 9,159
Skip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputationSkip1970 has a superb reputation
thronsonskip
boy that looks great. did you have a dead cylinder is that was clued you in on the broken valve spring?
__________________
00EX7.3 powerstop rotors, coated calipers, pads, 6637 filter, FRX, HPX, cobalt gauges, riff raff boots/plenum inserts. alternator 1/30/2012 199226 miles. oil filter, pre&fuel filter 9/2014 226221 Miles.

Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition. Semper Fi
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-03-2014, 03:46 PM
RacinNdrummin's Avatar
RacinNdrummin RacinNdrummin is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 2,342
RacinNdrummin is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Those new rings or old? Either way, those gaps are out of spec. Im not sure where you have them in the bore either. The Top ring should be around .020" and the middle ring spec is around .070", but I would ignore that and run it about .024", The big middle ring gaps are why these things have terrible blowby even on fresh engines. Remember though, those specs have to be at the tightest spot in the cylinder though if you don't plan on boring. You will have to measure the ring gap at several spots to find the narrowest part of the bore. Its best to use feeler gauges to measure the gap. If you don't do it at the narrowest part of the bore, the ring ends could collide and stick a ring or worse. If those are used rings in the pics, that's enough wear that I would go a bit further and check to make sure you are still within spec on the bore taper...
__________________
Smogie- 88 F250- 6.9---->*** Under the knife again*** ...Snow W/M 20gph, ZF5, Valair Ceramic, DNE2 OD, D60 SAS, 4" lift, Bro-wheeled, T-bar'd...

2013 F150 4x4 3.5 Ecoboost CC 6.5'bed
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-03-2014, 04:16 PM
JeffStrachan's Avatar
JeffStrachan JeffStrachan is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
JeffStrachan is starting off with a positive reputation.
Skip, there was valve clatter on that side and that piston also had virtually no compression. The spring itself was intact and functioning and I didn't notice it was broken until I removed it.
There was such blowby from the head gasket that the valve got all crudded up with carbon and was sticking and wouldn't close properly. I think that heat on that spring actually caused the spring failure. I couldn't tell what side it was on because of that crossover pipe feeding the turbo comes out in a single exhaust. Until there was the knocking.

Racin', those are the old rings. I have a Helm Ford Service Manual that says ring gap for top ring should be between 0.013-0.045 and the 2nd ring between 0.060 and 0.085.

I don't believe I have a tool to measure taper. And I guess I didn't measure the gaps on the rings properly. Are you saying I need to push the rings down further into the cylinder (with the piston head, I guess) to properly measure the gap? Obviously, I couldn't get my caliper in there. Do you have a link to a youtube or something that explains WTF!!!!
__________________
1993 F350XLT 4x4 Crew Cab, 4" SuperLift, ATS Turbo; 2000 VW Golf TDI; 1993 BlueBird 5.9 Cummins; 1985 Porsche 928S
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-03-2014, 05:50 PM
JeffStrachan's Avatar
JeffStrachan JeffStrachan is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
JeffStrachan is starting off with a positive reputation.
better lucky than good?

Ok, enough whining. (My meds were wearing off.)


It looks like I can use my new .020 oversized rings and grind them down? Very carefully, of course.
__________________
1993 F350XLT 4x4 Crew Cab, 4" SuperLift, ATS Turbo; 2000 VW Golf TDI; 1993 BlueBird 5.9 Cummins; 1985 Porsche 928S
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-03-2014, 08:16 PM
speedwrench72's Avatar
speedwrench72 speedwrench72 is offline
Elder User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: western washington
Posts: 648
speedwrench72 is starting off with a positive reputation.
WAX ON, WAX OFF, WAX ON, WAX OFF, DON'T FORGET TO BREATHE. you learn best by doing. you are doing well. have fun with it, it will live again. nice pics. keep it up.
__________________
Wanted 93 crew cab f350 idi... Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voteing on what to have for lunch, Liberty is a well-Armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin... My Boy is a MARINE.... 72 F250 390 HI BOY 4speed.... 91 E350 7.3 idi..KF7POL
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-04-2014, 02:23 AM
JeffStrachan's Avatar
JeffStrachan JeffStrachan is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
JeffStrachan is starting off with a positive reputation.
I think I get it now. Thanks Racin'

Learn by doing. I am. I was thinking I was going to be out 90 some bucks I paid for the rings but it looks like I can use them after all. (?) Is the arc of the inside diameter of the ring, that corresponds to the bore/overbore diameter, that different from 'standard' to 020 over?

I now understand what Racin' was talking about and how it probably would have been a bad idea to go with my old rings. And also, about closing up the second ring to help maintain/increase compression. My old rings were clearly out of spec and the book is just the book. He clearly knows what he's talking about. I'm not worthy. Making the 2nd ring gap smaller is a good idea, especially as I have a turbo. I'll find out if sticking with my older 1/2" head bolts and these new rings is going to blow my new gaskets. That will be on me.

So, I've been filing down my top ring to get a gap ~ 020 and my 2nd ring to 025, just because I have those dimensions handy on my old feeler gauge. This isn't "wreck your engine if you get it wrong" stuff if you're off by a couple thousandths, is it?

My ring grinder. Takes about 600 strokes to get the top ring down. Only about 75 on the 2nd ring.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

So, the pushrods have some pitting but I guess they're sound. The tappetts? lifters? the round things with the rollers on them, look real good to me. Sure don't look like 230+K miles on 'em, do they?

The rockers, levers (?) ALL have some visible indents. Worse on the left side. I don't see this part in the Rock Auto catalog. Does anyone know where to get these? Are they cheap? Is that a disturbing amount of wear?
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.



Click the image to open in full size.



I would be rid of this Blazer if I could get it started. Long story. There is a Blazer Forum. Speaking of learning by doing. I painted that thing. Will get better at that next time.
__________________
1993 F350XLT 4x4 Crew Cab, 4" SuperLift, ATS Turbo; 2000 VW Golf TDI; 1993 BlueBird 5.9 Cummins; 1985 Porsche 928S
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-04-2014, 09:33 AM
fordtruckman838 fordtruckman838 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Saint Maries Idaho
Posts: 165
fordtruckman838 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Thanks for posting a build thread!!
I just came down out of the mountains so I am getting caught up.

Now that you have honed, make certain that you clean those cylinders EXTREMELY well. I prefer to use Tide laundry detergent but Dawn dish soap should also work. Use the hottest water you can stand and scrub them well otherwise the leftover abrasive can eat up the rings in a hurry. (my dad had that problem in a 429 gasser, he had just rinsed them out with the pressure washer)


Sealed Power Rocker arms on Summit

Here are some rocker arms. They are a bit pricy but are an option for you.

Good luck on the build!

Bill
__________________
88 Bronco II
86 F250/350 6.9IDI N/A 2300# BB codes
83 F150 4WD with 351 Cleveland
78 Ranchero with 400
DE KE7OVE
Engineer's Motto--If it isn't broken, take it apart and fix it.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-04-2014, 11:27 AM
RacinNdrummin's Avatar
RacinNdrummin RacinNdrummin is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 2,342
RacinNdrummin is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffStrachan View Post
Learn by doing. I am. I was thinking I was going to be out 90 some bucks I paid for the rings but it looks like I can use them after all. (?) Is the arc of the inside diameter of the ring, that corresponds to the bore/overbore diameter, that different from 'standard' to 020 over?

I now understand what Racin' was talking about and how it probably would have been a bad idea to go with my old rings. And also, about closing up the second ring to help maintain/increase compression. My old rings were clearly out of spec and the book is just the book. He clearly knows what he's talking about. I'm not worthy. Making the 2nd ring gap smaller is a good idea, especially as I have a turbo. I'll find out if sticking with my older 1/2" head bolts and these new rings is going to blow my new gaskets. That will be on me.

So, I've been filing down my top ring to get a gap ~ 020 and my 2nd ring to 025, just because I have those dimensions handy on my old feeler gauge. This isn't "wreck your engine if you get it wrong" stuff if you're off by a couple thousandths, is it?

My ring grinder. Takes about 600 strokes to get the top ring down. Only about 75 on the 2nd ring.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

So, the pushrods have some pitting but I guess they're sound. The tappetts? lifters? the round things with the rollers on them, look real good to me. Sure don't look like 230+K miles on 'em, do they?

The rockers, levers (?) ALL have some visible indents. Worse on the left side. I don't see this part in the Rock Auto catalog. Does anyone know where to get these? Are they cheap? Is that a disturbing amount of wear?
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.



Click the image to open in full size.



I would be rid of this Blazer if I could get it started. Long story. There is a Blazer Forum. Speaking of learning by doing. I painted that thing. Will get better at that next time.

Does the ring look concentric to cylinder wall with no gaps (can you see light with a flashlight?)... If not, you will probably be fine.


Those gaps should be fine (If you're off by a couple thou, its not a biggy) as long as you are at the smallest part of the bore. On my engine, I set both my ring gaps to .014" (Second was a gapless anyway), but that was on a fresh bore. I would side a bit bigger to give yourself some wiggle room on your worn bores.


As long as your pushrods are straight, and not horribly misshapen at the ends, run them. Pull all your lifters apart and clean them up in your solvent tank. When you put them back in, orient them so the wear is opposite where it was, its easy if you visualize the engine rotation and load on the lifter body.


Those rocker arms have seen better days, but if you don't want to buy new ones, you can take some emory and smooth over the divets, and you'll be fine. Its not like this is a 100% fresh engine here...
__________________
Smogie- 88 F250- 6.9---->*** Under the knife again*** ...Snow W/M 20gph, ZF5, Valair Ceramic, DNE2 OD, D60 SAS, 4" lift, Bro-wheeled, T-bar'd...

2013 F150 4x4 3.5 Ecoboost CC 6.5'bed
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-04-2014, 05:51 PM
JeffStrachan's Avatar
JeffStrachan JeffStrachan is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
JeffStrachan is starting off with a positive reputation.
oversized rings, for sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNdrummin View Post
Does the ring look concentric to cylinder wall with no gaps (can you see light with a flashlight?)... If not, you will probably be fine.


Those gaps should be fine (If you're off by a couple thou, its not a biggy) as long as you are at the smallest part of the bore. On my engine, I set both my ring gaps to .014" (Second was a gapless anyway), but that was on a fresh bore. I would side a bit bigger to give yourself some wiggle room on your worn bores.


This has been bothering me since I gleaned I might be able to use these rings. I've seen general consensus around the intenal combustion world that this is not a good idea. The problem would be that the cut down rings are being squished into a smaller circle than is natural for them, and there is excess stress on them and they may be prone (likely, most certainly) going to break. They might also not be round and fit tight in the piston groove.
I also read that this is an old racer's trick and results in a tighter compression seal and is fine, for a race or two.

I appreciate you didn't just jump all over this Racin'. I have identified that I do have some taper and as I was fitting the rings I was checking specifically about light coming through given what I'm doing here. I've only done 2 cylinders so far. It feels and looks good. In fact, until I read some horror stories while looking for validation stories I was feeling pretty good about custom gapping my oversized rings.
I read one story of a guy who claims a guy put 060 rings on an 040 overbore that were so tight he dragged it around for 10 miles in gear without starting it to seat the rings.
I think I'm going to continue.

As long as your pushrods are straight, and not horribly misshapen at the ends, run them. Pull all your lifters apart and clean them up in your solvent tank. When you put them back in, orient them so the wear is opposite where it was, its easy if you visualize the engine rotation and load on the lifter body.

Check.


Those rocker arms have seen better days, but if you don't want to buy new ones, you can take some emory and smooth over the divets, and you'll be fine. Its not like this is a 100% fresh engine here...
Yes, I see the rockers now at RockAuto <10 each. "My Vehicle" is listed as the IDIT,and some parts are only in the IDI (NA) Engine. I think I might see how trying to smooth them out goes but I might actually spring for a couple of the bad ones.

Thanks.
__________________
1993 F350XLT 4x4 Crew Cab, 4" SuperLift, ATS Turbo; 2000 VW Golf TDI; 1993 BlueBird 5.9 Cummins; 1985 Porsche 928S
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-05-2014, 07:25 PM
SteveBFuel's Avatar
SteveBFuel SteveBFuel is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4
SteveBFuel is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffStrachan View Post
Yes, I see the rockers now at RockAuto <10 each. "My Vehicle" is listed as the IDIT,and some parts are only in the IDI (NA) Engine. I think I might see how trying to smooth them out goes but I might actually spring for a couple of the bad ones.

Thanks.


Rockers are crazy hardened...case hardened, I think, meaning only the outer layer. Hopefully you've organized them so they can be mated back their lovingly mated pushrods. Knock off any metal that is proud of the surface, but don't try and remove pitting; you're making it worse. If they were rocking when you took it apart, they'll rock when you put it back together.
Bigger fish to fry in this job!


As for the oversized rings in a non-oversized bore, do the "daylight" test at several spots along the bore, not just at the top.
My brain says big circles forced to be smaller circles won't be round, but my brain drinks, wtf does he know.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-06-2014, 05:05 PM
JeffStrachan's Avatar
JeffStrachan JeffStrachan is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
JeffStrachan is starting off with a positive reputation.
Thumbs up fish fry

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

What bigger fish, Steve?

Cleaning the ring gaps? Toughest thing I've EVER done. 3 done, one almost done, 4 to go. Hopefully its all downhill from here.

The Berryman's is ok. I've read Mopar makes something better.
Yes, that hurts.
__________________
1993 F350XLT 4x4 Crew Cab, 4" SuperLift, ATS Turbo; 2000 VW Golf TDI; 1993 BlueBird 5.9 Cummins; 1985 Porsche 928S
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-06-2014, 06:14 PM
SteveBFuel's Avatar
SteveBFuel SteveBFuel is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4
SteveBFuel is starting off with a positive reputation.
Try to hold your breath around that stuff. I used some stuff on my X1/9 build that called for (and freakin' needed!) water on top of the chemicals to act as a an evaporation barrier, and that was in the 80's, when not a blah-blah was given about such things. Made my eyes water, and probably caused drain bamage. Maybe move those buckets near the door. FFS don't pour it out into your parts cleaner.


Ring lands look good from here. What's your feeling about the rings in the bores? I know, I know, 90 bucks, but if you get this thing all back together and it won't stop blowing oil, you'll pout like a girl.
You put on your grownup pants yet and pull the cam?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-06-2014, 10:48 PM
ozdatman's Avatar
ozdatman ozdatman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 231
ozdatman is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
I always found one of the old rings broken in half is good to clean the ring grooves.
__________________
87 4x4, Crew Cab, 6.9, c6, 3.55 diff ratio
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-06-2014, 11:46 PM
JeffStrachan's Avatar
JeffStrachan JeffStrachan is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
JeffStrachan is starting off with a positive reputation.
one step at a time

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveBFuel View Post
Try to hold your breath around that stuff. I used some stuff on my X1/9 build that called for (and freakin' needed!) water on top of the chemicals to act as a an evaporation barrier, and that was in the 80's, when not a blah-blah was given about such things. Made my eyes water, and probably caused drain bamage. Maybe move those buckets near the door. FFS don't pour it out into your parts cleaner.
Stuff isn't too noxious. Heck no, it's not going into the washer, not at $30 for that one can there. I'm running (mostly) regular unleaded in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveBFuel View Post
Ring lands look good from here. What's your feeling about the rings in the bores? I know, I know, 90 bucks, but if you get this thing all back together and it won't stop blowing oil, you'll pout like a girl.
My feelings, Dr. Ruth, are that I'm a dumass for buying rings when I didn't have a clue what I needed. I'm going to see how they look/feel on the pistons in the bores. If that seems ok then I'm going to put the heads on and do a leakdown test before I put the motor back in the truck. If that doesn't turn out well then I guess I'll get the right rings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveBFuel View Post
You put on your grownup pants yet and pull the cam?
How did you know I wasn't wearing any pants? No, I haven't pulled the camshaft yet. I haven't convinced myself of why that is necessary. I haven't completely cleaned the bores and the rest of the block with soapy water or preped the head surfaces, either.

Thanks for comments.
__________________
1993 F350XLT 4x4 Crew Cab, 4" SuperLift, ATS Turbo; 2000 VW Golf TDI; 1993 BlueBird 5.9 Cummins; 1985 Porsche 928S

Last edited by JeffStrachan; 09-06-2014 at 11:54 PM. Reason: spelling error. is that anal?
Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2014, 11:46 PM
 
 
 
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L)

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blown Head Gasket - Parts Upgrade? Bread Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L) 58 Yesterday 03:54 PM
93 diesel E4OD no reverse JeffStrachan Clutch, Transmission, Differential, Axle & Transfer Case 3 08-02-2014 05:50 AM
Engine rebuild - my first. Macrobb Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L) 4 07-09-2014 11:55 PM
Occasional squealing while towing. Turbo? Something else? ScaldedDog 1999 - 2003 7.3L Power Stroke Diesel 40 11-15-2013 12:20 PM
Hello all! Dan_Johnston New Member Introductions 3 09-13-2013 03:14 PM



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup