TTB Swap - What are my options?
#31
08-17-2014, 06:37 AM
You are silly. a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rides so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.
If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
Someone needs a geometry lesson.
#32
08-17-2014, 07:23 AM
Logistics Pro
However, apparently, I mistakenly assumed that the "Twin I-Beam" suspension (with coil springs) was simply "renamed" the "Twin Traction Beam" suspension, either due to Marketing's perpetual obsession with having "A Better Idea," OR because it meant 4x4 only.
DOES TTB only apply to 4x4's?
Or are there 2x4 TTB's?
And I'm glad to know that my original belief that the "Twin I-Beam" suspensions of the 2x4 F-100's, F-150's (and 2x4 F-250's--thanks for that tidbit, Diesel_Brad) are still as well-regarded as I've always thought of them, by so many. If the desert racers like them (albeit modified), they truly must be one of Ford's "Better Ideas."
DOES TTB only apply to 4x4's?
Or are there 2x4 TTB's?
And I'm glad to know that my original belief that the "Twin I-Beam" suspensions of the 2x4 F-100's, F-150's (and 2x4 F-250's--thanks for that tidbit, Diesel_Brad) are still as well-regarded as I've always thought of them, by so many. If the desert racers like them (albeit modified), they truly must be one of Ford's "Better Ideas."
And yes, both TIB and TTB are GREAT suspensions, with coil springs. Desert racers probably are about the hardest on suspensions, and they were running TIB on other makes of 2WD racers back in the '70s. And they are using the 35 year old TTB design on 4WD racers now. In a lot of ways it's the best of both worlds, the lower unsprung weight of IFS and the greater wheel travel of a solid axle. With coils.
(added in edit): And I said this before, but I should say it again. As bad as the leaf spring TTB is on paper, it does work to a certain level. And although I'm sure Ford sold more F-350s than they would have otherwise, that level was good enough to keep it in production for 17 years. There are still people who like it, and I'm not saying they are wrong to like it. I have it on my current truck and replacing it is SO far down the list that I'm pretty sure it'll always have it.
#33
08-17-2014, 08:23 AM
Fleet Owner
Who said there is only one inch of wheel travel? Not me.
1" there translates to about 2" of wheel travel.
Maybe some needs reading comprehension lesson.
#34
08-17-2014, 09:24 AM
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It's all a matter of perspective. Both my wife and I feel our F250 (SC/LB 4x4 IDIT) rides much better than our last Bronco ('94) did. Of course, some of that is due to the Bronco's very short wheelbase, but the front end definitely rides more smoothly in the 250. Maybe it's the weight of the diesel, or the Bilsteins in the Bronco were too stiff (they were). That being said, has anyone tried doing a coil spring conversion to a leaf spring TTB? That would seem to be the best of both worlds.
#35
08-17-2014, 11:06 AM
Logistics Pro
It's all a matter of perspective. Both my wife and I feel our F250 (SC/LB 4x4 IDIT) rides much better than our last Bronco ('94) did. Of course, some of that is due to the Bronco's very short wheelbase, but the front end definitely rides more smoothly in the 250. Maybe it's the weight of the diesel, or the Bilsteins in the Bronco were too stiff (they were). That being said, has anyone tried doing a coil spring conversion to a leaf spring TTB? That would seem to be the best of both worlds.
As far as converting an F-250 to coils, yes it's been done. I posted this link earlier in this thread, but here's a home-built F-250 desert prerunner with 18" of wheel travel from the D50 TTB with coilovers. I'd LOVE to have this truck! GoFastBroncos.com - View topic - BajaF250
#36
08-17-2014, 05:19 PM
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Link to some pictures: http://imgur.com/a/qy97m#0
For starters, the suspension that I have now is tired like I stated earlier, it sags tremendously which causes really bad negative camber backing up and slightly positive camber while driving forward, and nothing that I've done has corrected this which means replacement is about my only option, regardless of whether it's with like and kind, or SAS. If you look at the pictures in the imgur folder, you'll see if you look very closely that all the ball joints are replaced and many other parts including what you can't see in regards to the big rubber bushings in the suspension itself (can't remember the names of them at the moment). So, I'm just wanting to either correct the problem by fixing it or selling it and buying something different. I would love to spend as little as I need to but am not ruling out the possibility of replacing it by doing a SAS. Hope that clears up any confusion on what I need/want to do.
For starters, the suspension that I have now is tired like I stated earlier, it sags tremendously which causes really bad negative camber backing up and slightly positive camber while driving forward, and nothing that I've done has corrected this which means replacement is about my only option, regardless of whether it's with like and kind, or SAS. If you look at the pictures in the imgur folder, you'll see if you look very closely that all the ball joints are replaced and many other parts including what you can't see in regards to the big rubber bushings in the suspension itself (can't remember the names of them at the moment). So, I'm just wanting to either correct the problem by fixing it or selling it and buying something different. I would love to spend as little as I need to but am not ruling out the possibility of replacing it by doing a SAS. Hope that clears up any confusion on what I need/want to do.
That is exactly what I was thinking, BruteFord.
And not to take a THING away from Diesel_Brad's "How To," which should DEFINITELY be a "Sticky," if anything should, but I do NOT understand this (frequently-expressed) sentiment that the TTB front end is a bad thing. (So, I'm not trying to "pick on" you, Ace_of_Spades..., because I see this a lot).
Ever hit a curb, under heavy braking, with just ONE SIDE of the truck (no less!) going at least 20-25mph, when "Young, Dumb and Full of...(well, you know the rest)."
I did, with my little, 2x4, Shorty '72 F-100. WHAMB! (And believe me, your head will almost hit the headliner! I'm lucky, because I think my [shorter] passenger almost did hit her head--I hit on the passenger's side. And IIRC, we were wearing the lap belts--no shoulder belts on a '72--at least, not on my '72 "stripper" F-100).
The truck JUMPED the curb, ended up sitting with two wheels on the road, two wheels on the sidewalk), and it didn't get knocked out of alignment AT ALL. (I had purchased the truck as a total loss, "unwrecked it" and restored it, with much help from my Dad, and had the TTB alignment done by an expert, just once--PRIOR to my "Curb Stunt," and I still have the truck, 30+ years later--with the same alignment-job).
This (locally) well-known front end alignment shop expert, while sitting down in a PIT (remember those?), used a foot-controlled, "air over hydraulic" bottle-jack, to literally BEND the TTB arms, precisely, just enough to get it into spec.--after I had bought it (wrecked), restored it, again, before I pulled my "curb stunt."
Side Bar: "Do Not Bend"? I noticed on a '95 F150, recently, that it says, right on the TTB: "Do Not Bend," IIRC.
Perhaps Diesel_Brad could explain why that is? (I'm not located where I can see if this is also cast into the TTB of the '72 F-100).
And later on, I drove my $500., 1988 F-150 2x4, 4.9, RCLB, for 10 YEARS, on the same alignment I had done when I first got it (expensive--a ball joint and alignment cost me like $345., on my $500. truck, which freaked me, at the time--LOL). But over 10 YEARS, I had ZERO issues with the TTB, in terms of abnormal tire wear, pulling, wheel centering, etc.... And it rode great.
And I never did anything except grease these front ends.
I believe the "Rock Crawler Crowd" likes the SAS, for their extreme duty, but for the DD, or (NICE-riding, relatively-speaking) WORK TRUCK, I can't understand why one would want to do a SAS.
Re: heavier trucks, the TTB in my "'96/'97" 4x4, F-250 H.D. SCLB was one thing I never had a complaint about and, possibly because of the longer wheelbase, that truck, despite being a 4x4, rode as well as my lighter, F150 2x4, which is to say, it rode, tracked and drove GREAT, and comfortably, at 125,000+ miles.
Ace_of_Spades, may I ask, what, exactly, is not to your satisfaction with, as you put it, "...this tired front end...", with your TTB, especially since it sounds like you've "done your homework," and all your maintenance/repairs, faithfully? And how many miles are on the truck, and how many, since you've rebushed, etc...?
BigSix1
And not to take a THING away from Diesel_Brad's "How To," which should DEFINITELY be a "Sticky," if anything should, but I do NOT understand this (frequently-expressed) sentiment that the TTB front end is a bad thing. (So, I'm not trying to "pick on" you, Ace_of_Spades..., because I see this a lot).
Ever hit a curb, under heavy braking, with just ONE SIDE of the truck (no less!) going at least 20-25mph, when "Young, Dumb and Full of...(well, you know the rest)."
I did, with my little, 2x4, Shorty '72 F-100. WHAMB! (And believe me, your head will almost hit the headliner! I'm lucky, because I think my [shorter] passenger almost did hit her head--I hit on the passenger's side. And IIRC, we were wearing the lap belts--no shoulder belts on a '72--at least, not on my '72 "stripper" F-100).The truck JUMPED the curb, ended up sitting with two wheels on the road, two wheels on the sidewalk), and it didn't get knocked out of alignment AT ALL. (I had purchased the truck as a total loss, "unwrecked it" and restored it, with much help from my Dad, and had the TTB alignment done by an expert, just once--PRIOR to my "Curb Stunt," and I still have the truck, 30+ years later--with the same alignment-job).
This (locally) well-known front end alignment shop expert, while sitting down in a PIT (remember those?), used a foot-controlled, "air over hydraulic" bottle-jack, to literally BEND the TTB arms, precisely, just enough to get it into spec.--after I had bought it (wrecked), restored it, again, before I pulled my "curb stunt."
Side Bar: "Do Not Bend"? I noticed on a '95 F150, recently, that it says, right on the TTB: "Do Not Bend," IIRC.
Perhaps Diesel_Brad could explain why that is? (I'm not located where I can see if this is also cast into the TTB of the '72 F-100).And later on, I drove my $500., 1988 F-150 2x4, 4.9, RCLB, for 10 YEARS, on the same alignment I had done when I first got it (expensive--a ball joint and alignment cost me like $345., on my $500. truck, which freaked me, at the time--LOL). But over 10 YEARS, I had ZERO issues with the TTB, in terms of abnormal tire wear, pulling, wheel centering, etc.... And it rode great.
And I never did anything except grease these front ends.
I believe the "Rock Crawler Crowd" likes the SAS, for their extreme duty, but for the DD, or (NICE-riding, relatively-speaking) WORK TRUCK, I can't understand why one would want to do a SAS.
Re: heavier trucks, the TTB in my "'96/'97" 4x4, F-250 H.D. SCLB was one thing I never had a complaint about and, possibly because of the longer wheelbase, that truck, despite being a 4x4, rode as well as my lighter, F150 2x4, which is to say, it rode, tracked and drove GREAT, and comfortably, at 125,000+ miles.
Ace_of_Spades, may I ask, what, exactly, is not to your satisfaction with, as you put it, "...this tired front end...", with your TTB, especially since it sounds like you've "done your homework," and all your maintenance/repairs, faithfully? And how many miles are on the truck, and how many, since you've rebushed, etc...?
BigSix1
#37
08-17-2014, 05:23 PM
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#38
08-17-2014, 05:50 PM
Fleet Owner
As far as converting an F-250 to coils, yes it's been done. I posted this link earlier in this thread, but here's a home-built F-250 desert prerunner with 18" of wheel travel from the D50 TTB with coilovers. I'd LOVE to have this truck! GoFastBroncos.com - View topic - BajaF250
#39
08-17-2014, 06:20 PM
Link to some pictures: Truck - Imgur
For starters, the suspension that I have now is tired like I stated earlier, it sags tremendously which causes really bad negative camber backing up and slightly positive camber while driving forward, and nothing that I've done has corrected this which means replacement is about my only option, regardless of whether it's with like and kind, or SAS. If you look at the pictures in the imgur folder, you'll see if you look very closely that all the ball joints are replaced and many other parts including what you can't see in regards to the big rubber bushings in the suspension itself (can't remember the names of them at the moment). So, I'm just wanting to either correct the problem by fixing it or selling it and buying something different. I would love to spend as little as I need to but am not ruling out the possibility of replacing it by doing a SAS. Hope that clears up any confusion on what I need/want to do.
For starters, the suspension that I have now is tired like I stated earlier, it sags tremendously which causes really bad negative camber backing up and slightly positive camber while driving forward, and nothing that I've done has corrected this which means replacement is about my only option, regardless of whether it's with like and kind, or SAS. If you look at the pictures in the imgur folder, you'll see if you look very closely that all the ball joints are replaced and many other parts including what you can't see in regards to the big rubber bushings in the suspension itself (can't remember the names of them at the moment). So, I'm just wanting to either correct the problem by fixing it or selling it and buying something different. I would love to spend as little as I need to but am not ruling out the possibility of replacing it by doing a SAS. Hope that clears up any confusion on what I need/want to do.
Blue, All reasons to do something simple but very effective like add a small air bag to correct the sag to compensate for your worn springs and varying weights.
#40
08-17-2014, 06:32 PM
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#42
08-17-2014, 07:26 PM
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Link to some pictures: Truck - Imgur
For starters, the suspension that I have now is tired like I stated earlier, it sags tremendously which causes really bad negative camber backing up and slightly positive camber while driving forward, and nothing that I've done has corrected this which means replacement is about my only option, regardless of whether it's with like and kind, or SAS. If you look at the pictures in the imgur folder, you'll see if you look very closely that all the ball joints are replaced and many other parts including what you can't see in regards to the big rubber bushings in the suspension itself (can't remember the names of them at the moment). So, I'm just wanting to either correct the problem by fixing it or selling it and buying something different. I would love to spend as little as I need to but am not ruling out the possibility of replacing it by doing a SAS. Hope that clears up any confusion on what I need/want to do.
For starters, the suspension that I have now is tired like I stated earlier, it sags tremendously which causes really bad negative camber backing up and slightly positive camber while driving forward, and nothing that I've done has corrected this which means replacement is about my only option, regardless of whether it's with like and kind, or SAS. If you look at the pictures in the imgur folder, you'll see if you look very closely that all the ball joints are replaced and many other parts including what you can't see in regards to the big rubber bushings in the suspension itself (can't remember the names of them at the moment). So, I'm just wanting to either correct the problem by fixing it or selling it and buying something different. I would love to spend as little as I need to but am not ruling out the possibility of replacing it by doing a SAS. Hope that clears up any confusion on what I need/want to do.
#43
08-17-2014, 08:09 PM
Logistics Pro
Probably my favorite vehicle I've ever seen on the internet!
No, camber. When you drive forward the toe-in pushes the tires in which tends to pull the beams down, pushing the ride height up, and tipping the upper ball joint out and the lower in, changing the camber. Backing up pulls the tires out and the opposite thing happens.
Coil spring TTB do the same thing, but it's generally not that big of a deal. Do the alignment after pulling forward and your alignment will be right while driving forward. Sure it'll be off when backing up, but who cares.
No, camber. When you drive forward the toe-in pushes the tires in which tends to pull the beams down, pushing the ride height up, and tipping the upper ball joint out and the lower in, changing the camber. Backing up pulls the tires out and the opposite thing happens.
Coil spring TTB do the same thing, but it's generally not that big of a deal. Do the alignment after pulling forward and your alignment will be right while driving forward. Sure it'll be off when backing up, but who cares.
#44
08-17-2014, 09:32 PM
No, camber. When you drive forward the toe-in pushes the tires in which tends to pull the beams down, pushing the ride height up, and tipping the upper ball joint out and the lower in, changing the camber. Backing up pulls the tires out and the opposite thing happens.
#45
08-17-2014, 10:01 PM
Logistics Pro
The toe in. Think about if the front tires were toed in really far. As the truck is moved forward the right tire would be steering left and the left tire would be steering right. They'd both be trying to move closer to the center of the truck. The same thing happens with correct toe-in, just not as aggressively.
Of course that's true with a solid axle too, but the difference is that a TTB, TIB and to some extent most IFS systems will allow the front tires to move closer together as long as the wheels go down with respect to the frame. And with TTB and TIB that changes the camber.
Is it a problem? No, not really. Because as I said, if you align the truck after pulling forward onto the alignment rack it's aligned for driving forward, which is almost all the driving the truck will do. Who cares if the camber is screwed up when you're in reverse? The toe in and caster are both backward when backing up and no one gets worked up about that.
Of course that's true with a solid axle too, but the difference is that a TTB, TIB and to some extent most IFS systems will allow the front tires to move closer together as long as the wheels go down with respect to the frame. And with TTB and TIB that changes the camber.
Is it a problem? No, not really. Because as I said, if you align the truck after pulling forward onto the alignment rack it's aligned for driving forward, which is almost all the driving the truck will do. Who cares if the camber is screwed up when you're in reverse? The toe in and caster are both backward when backing up and no one gets worked up about that.