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1987 - 1996 F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks 1987 - 1996 Ford F-150, F-250, F-350 and larger pickups - including the 1997 heavy-duty F250/F350+ trucks

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  #16  
Old 08-16-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by stocker rocker View Post
I have 87 f250 with ttb and a 95 f350 with a solid axle considering putting ttb in its place the ride is night and day ttb all the way for me
I've got 2 trucks with D60s and have these crazy ideas of building a custom TTB. Long reversed arms, full swing steering, and air bags.
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:51 PM
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The TTB Twin Traction Beam with leafs is no comparison to
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Old 08-16-2014, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by stocker rocker View Post
I have 87 f250 with ttb and a 95 f350 with a solid axle considering putting ttb in its place the ride is night and day ttb all the way for me
Yours is the minority position, but you're not the only one I've heard say that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNR22 View Post
My regular cab long box 89 F250 had a D50 TTB in it when I bought it, leaf sprung of course. The ride was awful. With F350 suspension and a D44HD straight axle from a 79 F250 the ride is much improved.

The suspension actually moves when you hit bumps and the truck doesn't lurch like it did when you hit pot holes with the D50 TTB.

As far as I'm concerned, OP should throw that TTB axle in the scrap pile and get his choice of solid axle, D60 is much more straight forward than the old D44HD that I put in.
Why do you say the D60 is a more straightforward swap than a solid D44? I'm asking because one of my pipe dreams is a solid D44 under an F-250 SuperCab. I'm leaning toward a 44 because I'm thinking it won't require as much additional lift (I've heard 2-3" going to a solid D60) as well as cheaper parts to build it up (gears, lockers, etc.) But I haven't looked into the detail yet so I'm interested in why you'd suggest a D60 after doing a D44.
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Old 08-16-2014, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stocker rocker View Post
I have 87 f250 with ttb and a 95 f350 with a solid axle considering putting ttb in its place the ride is night and day ttb all the way for me
You are silly. a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rides so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.

If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
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Old 08-16-2014, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing Special View Post
Why do you say the D60 is a more straightforward swap than a solid D44? I'm asking because one of my pipe dreams is a solid D44 under an F-250 SuperCab. I'm leaning toward a 44 because I'm thinking it won't require as much additional lift (I've heard 2-3" going to a solid D60) as well as cheaper parts to build it up (gears, lockers, etc.) But I haven't looked into the detail yet so I'm interested in why you'd suggest a D60 after doing a D44.
The Dana 44 isn't a bolt up deal like the D60. The TTB springs have to get swapped out, and I used F350 springs from a 1996, so the lift is the same either way. The Dana 60 is also stronger, but it is more expensive.

If I were to go back and do it again, I'd pick up a Dana 60, or an entire F350 with a blown up motor or something, and do it that way.
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  #21  
Old 08-16-2014, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_Brad View Post
You are silly. a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rids so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.
define "better".

-better with a ton of weight in the bed? sure.

-better towing huge trailers with high tongue weight? sure.

-better ride quality with light loads or unloaded? absolutely not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_Brad View Post
If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. it is unbelievable how smooth they ride
I don't disagree here, if we are talkin solid vs solid.

the ttb is more finicky, requires more maintenance, is less tolerant to parts wear (ball joints, tie rods, etc) but it is a superior setup if ballin over bumps is what you like to do.

I guess we should go to rock races, and races of the like, and tell all the guys running d50 ttb's that they're silly, and that they would be winning races by even greater margins if they'd swap to d60 for superior ride quality.

1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.

a blanketed "solid axle" suggestion is the answer given by those who don't understand the ttb and its benefits (most people fit into this category), or for those who choose a solid because the juices (benefits) of the ttb aren't worth the squeeze (extra attention)

ttb is a masterpiece for those who seek and reap its benefits. solid axles and ttb's have their place, its up to the driver to decide which one is best for him....after they understand (or dont - and choose a solid "cuz its just better") which one would be best for them.

idiots and the well informed can both vote in politics. only the well informed should be voting, but the idiots vote with the masses anyway.
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  #22  
Old 08-16-2014, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_Brad View Post
If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
1.5" over stock F350 is about 4" over stock F250. That's a good chunk of lift for a daily/work truck.

Why not RSK a TTB, sounds like a good mod to me, better angles and more travel. Even more so, make it spring under, that would provide about an additional 2" of up travel without added lift.
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  #23  
Old 08-16-2014, 08:04 PM
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I disagree with every good thing said about the TTB. That is, if you're referring to the god awful leaf sprung version in the F250. In an F150, sure, keep your TTB because it at least rides mildly decent for a pick up truck. In an F250, you might as well take the springs out and ride the bump stops and it might ride smoother.
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  #24  
Old 08-16-2014, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '89F2urd View Post
I guess we should go to rock races, and races of the like, and tell all the guys running d50 ttb's that they're silly, and that they would be winning races by even greater margins if they'd swap to d60 for superior ride quality.

1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.
Every performance-oriented TTB I've ever seen has been coil sprung. There are some incredible coil sprung TTB D50s out there, that are MUCH better than a solid axle for go-fast desert racing (here's a really cool one - GoFastBroncos.com - View topic - BajaF250). But they are either high buck or huge projects, and they bear almost no similarities to a stock leaf spring TTB.

You are right that there is more than 1" of up travel at the wheel due to geometry. The bump stop is about 60% of the way from the pivot to the wheel, so there's about 1.7" of uptravel at the wheel. Still no where near what any reasonable front suspension has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruteFord View Post
Why not RSK a TTB, sounds like a good mod to me, better angles and more travel. Even more so, make it spring under, that would provide about an additional 2" of up travel without added lift.
A lift could give more up travel, but if there is much travel at all in a leaf spring TTB you're going to be doing really nasty things to the springs as you twist them and try to bend them sideways. It might work better (until you break a spring), but you're fighting a loosing battle getting travel out of a leaf sprung TTB.

Springunder would be one way to do it too, but that looks like a whole lotta trouble figuring out how to do it semi-decently. I've never seen an aftermarket kit for it which says a lot too.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Nothing Special View Post
A lift could give more up travel, but if there is much travel at all in a leaf spring TTB you're going to be doing really nasty things to the springs as you twist them and try to bend them sideways. It might work better (until you break a spring), but you're fighting a loosing battle getting travel out of a leaf sprung TTB.

Springunder would be one way to do it too, but that looks like a whole lotta trouble figuring out how to do it semi-decently. I've never seen an aftermarket kit for it which says a lot too.
You're making an issue out of a non-issue with leaf spring twist. Leaf springs twist, there's nothing wrong with that, it's what they do, they're springs.

As for spring under, sure it would take a little creativity but not much, in particular if doing a RSK at the same time. Just install springs with more arch, maybe even stock rears, flip the U-bolts/brackets over, and install longer shocks as IIRC they are mounted on the U-bolt bracket/plate.

IMO the biggest issue is maintaining level so a to maintain camber. IMO the ideal solution is to use an airbag to make on the spot or automatic adjustments, this could also provide a very soft ride. Use just enough spring to keep it off the bump stops with no air in the bags then use the bags to set height.
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  #26  
Old 08-16-2014, 10:07 PM
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I didn't mind the ttb front end in my Bronco but that was my first truck and couldn't compare it with much. I did like my 1991 f350 ride when i owned one... and now i hate my ttb f250 i have Looking for a suitable donor truck as we write!
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '89F2urd View Post
define "better".

-better with a ton of weight in the bed? sure.
NO. Better all around. Loaded or empty
-better towing huge trailers with high tongue weight? sure.
yes, better with a trailer
-better ride quality with light loads or unloaded? absolutely not.

YES, better with no load or light load


I don't disagree here, if we are talkin solid vs solid.

the ttb is more finicky, requires more maintenance, is less tolerant to parts wear (ball joints, tie rods, etc) but it is a superior setup if ballin over bumps is what you like to do.

Agreed. the TTB dana 50 and solid axle dana 60 use the same ball joints but the parts wear 2-3 times as fast in a TTB
I guess we should go to rock races, and races of the like, and tell all the guys running d50 ttb's that they're silly, and that they would be winning races by even greater margins if they'd swap to d60 for superior ride quality.

1" of travel at the bump stop translates to much more than that at the wheel.....simple geometry.

Agreed here too, but what is that at the tire? 2" of travel?
a blanketed "solid axle" suggestion is the answer given by those who don't understand the ttb and its benefits (most people fit into this category), or for those who choose a solid because the juices (benefits) of the ttb aren't worth the squeeze (extra attention)

ttb is a masterpiece for those who seek and reap its benefits. solid axles and ttb's have their place, its up to the driver to decide which one is best for him....after they understand (or dont - and choose a solid "cuz its just better") which one would be best for them.

idiots and the well informed can both vote in politics. only the well informed should be voting, but the idiots vote with the masses anyway.

The COIL SPRING TTB is where the benefits really shine. the TTB leaf spring design just plain SUCKS
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruteFord View Post
You're making an issue out of a non-issue with leaf spring twist. Leaf springs twist, there's nothing wrong with that, it's what they do, they're springs.

As for spring under, sure it would take a little creativity but not much, in particular if doing a RSK at the same time. Just install springs with more arch, maybe even stock rears, flip the U-bolts/brackets over, and install longer shocks as IIRC they are mounted on the U-bolt bracket/plate.

IMO the biggest issue is maintaining level so a to maintain camber. IMO the ideal solution is to use an airbag to make on the spot or automatic adjustments, this could also provide a very soft ride. Use just enough spring to keep it off the bump stops with no air in the bags then use the bags to set height.
It's not the twist so much as the bend sideways. Imagine attaching the fixed end of the spring and then trying to move the center of the spring side to side. You'll get a little motion from the bushing in the spring eye, but you're not going to get very much. But that's not even as bad as what a leaf spring TTB does, because in our imaginary exercise the shackle end of the spring would move side to side twice as much as the middle. But in reality that end is held by the shackle. Again, you can get a little motion, but if you have very much travel it will get even worse. I'm pretty sure that's why F-250s are set up with so little up travel and such stiff springs (even stiffer than F-350 springs as everyone tells you when saying what's needed for a solid axle swap). The limited wheel travel keeps the springs from getting bent around in weird ways too much.

It's all simple geometry.
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  #29  
Old 08-16-2014, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel_Brad View Post
You are silly. a Solid axle will ride better than the TTB just for the fact it actually has suspension travel. The TTB rides so bad because there is about 1" of travel before it hits the bump stops. It is that sudden stop that makes it ride so harsh.

If you want a great ride with MINIMAL lift go Solid axle and RSK. It is unbelievable how smooth they ride And it adds 1.5" to the stock height of a F350 with the proper springs
I may b silly but I just rebuilt the ttb with a 4250 pound spring because I use it for a plow truck in the winter and I was worried I was going to ruin the way it rode but it's a Cadillac even without the plow compared to the straight axle but the family won't lie they prefer the super cab ttb to the teeth rattling crew cab D60 so maybe this can shed some light on if I have something wrong with my suspension
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Old 08-17-2014, 01:52 AM
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Wow--I just learned TON of new information--thanks!

And to the Ace_of_Spades: Please accept my apologies. I obviously did not understand the majority of the issues involved and, now that I've got a better idea, I see why you're looking at your options.

I don't have time to respond, individually, to everyone, as I'd like to, right now, as I have another, more pressing post I have to put up, but I realize now that there is just a boatload of stuff I wasn't taking into consideration.

And I am happy to confess that I, too, kept wondering why there seems to be only approx. an inch of travel, before the bumpstop on my '96/'97 F-250 H.D. SCLB hits the spring. I always assumed it was because the leaf springs are kind of "sacked," at 125K miles, when the P.O. dragged a heavy-duty, 8' Western snow plow around, a lot.

But a lot of what what said here now makes sense. Expensive ball joint repairs, at "low-ish" miles, for one.

And I know see how inherently-limiting the idea of TTB with LEAF springs is.

I was already aware of the fact that having leaf springs (as opposed to coil springs) on the front axle forces a larger turning circle, so that the tires don't scrub on the leaf springs. I could turn out of my buddy's driveway, and stay on the road, with my '88 F-150, but he has to jump the curb each time. I found that funny--it never got old.

But please let me ask one thing now:

I now realize that TIB and TTB are not the same--and thank you, everyone, for helping me to understand that.


However, apparently, I mistakenly assumed that the "Twin I-Beam" suspension (with coil springs) was simply "renamed" the "Twin Traction Beam" suspension, either due to Marketing's perpetual obsession with having "A Better Idea," OR because it meant 4x4 only.

DOES TTB only apply to 4x4's?

Or are there 2x4 TTB's?

And I'm glad to know that my original belief that the "Twin I-Beam" suspensions of the 2x4 F-100's, F-150's (and 2x4 F-250's--thanks for that tidbit, Diesel_Brad) are still as well-regarded as I've always thought of them, by so many. If the desert racers like them (albeit modified), they truly must be one of Ford's "Better Ideas."

Great thread--I hope to return, to give credit where credit is due, to Diesel_Brad, Nothing Special, Bashby and others (some of whose names I can't see while typing on this page--LOL).

Thanks again.

BigSix1
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