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1987 - 1996 F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks 1987 - 1996 Ford F-150, F-250, F-350 and larger pickups - including the 1997 heavy-duty F250/F350+ trucks

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  #1  
Old 07-17-2014, 11:25 AM
Wheelman55 Wheelman55 is offline
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6.0 Transmission Cooler for 1993 F250 460 cu in

Anybody know if I can put the 6.0 transmission cooler in my '93 F250 7.5L?
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Old 07-17-2014, 06:52 PM
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Sure, you can run any cooler you want provided you can get it mounted. Ain't nothing to fab up a bracket or two if needed.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:10 PM
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keep in mind a few things before you do that;
1.those are upgrades for trans that are not build like our E40D's.our pumps run full flow on all the time.when the converter locks,they pump massive amounts of fluid through the coolers.when the latter trans converter locks,their pumps slow down.thats why they can use the massive coolers like that in heavy towers,rated to tow much more than our old trucks....should lol.
2.the more coolers you place in front of your radiator and other coolers,the lower their efficiency become.

so in short,your E40D shouldn't need a cooler of that size to maintain ideal trans temps and you don't want to needlessly make engine cooling a harder chore,or raise your in cab a/c temps as you'll likely just not gain anything......save for an over cooled trans which may not burn off the moisture like it should,lead to milky atf and then trans failure.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:57 AM
Wheelman55 Wheelman55 is offline
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Hmmm...a couple of questions and some history on the vehicle.

Question 1. How would the added cooling on the tranny affect the in cab temp of the AC?

Question 2. Are you recommending no cooler in front of the radiator?

Background. This is my first older F250....owned a modern F350 diesel for a few years...towed a 24' closed trailer loaded with kayaks full time with it. This one was modern, so no real issues other than crappy mileage.

I've owned and mechanically rebuilt two Alfa Romeos from the ground up...from the radiator cap down to the tires, including motor, fuel injection, tranny, driveshaft, diff, suspension. So I understand that old vehicles take some attention, time and money.

I still own the '74 GTV which just sings down the road. It's NOT a trailer queen...looks good from 10 feet but not perfect...until you look under the hood or take it for a ride...then it's real nice...

Current situation. I'm buying a really clean '93 F250 with the 7.5L, 4x4, automatic in Portland OR (I'm in MN).

The rub is that it needs a transmission right now. I'm 1,800 miles away and am flying out to drive it home. If I could have gotten it home with the current tranny I would have most likely gotten a BTS tranny from Brian. Wasn't meant to be.

This truck has gone through two tranny's already in 92,000 miles, so I am wanting to do this right and only do it once. For the record I have no idea of what happened to cause the tranny failures.

I read the horror stories about the EO4D, fully realizing that there are 100's of thousands out there that have not failed...you generally only hear the bad on forums.

Once again, I have zero experience with an F250...yet

I'll own this truck forever. Once I get the truck sorted out I'm going to keep it down in Texas...wife and I are building an off grid place way out there in far west TX.

The truck will see 50/50 highway/dirt to rough dirt roads. There will be no true off road miles. It'll haul occasionally...2,000 to 3,000 pounds of rock/gravel in the bed...every now and then an open double axle 20'-24' flatbed trailer full of who knows what.

It's really hot down there...so both a cool tranny and cold AC are vital. Half of our miles will be on what most folks would call very rough roads so the speeds are generally sub 30 mph. Our place is 3.5 miles off pavement and 90 miles from the nearest town, so there'll be easy highway miles too. We visit friends out there who are 20-40 miles off pavement...think 1 to 2 hours each way, so a fair number of rough road miles.

Northside Ford Truck in Portland will put in a remanufactured tranny and they recommend a cooler. Also I keep reading posts from Mark K on this forum as well as on the Diesel forum (the former Ford Automatic Transmission Engineer for 15-20 years) recommending the 6.0 26 row cooler. I PM'd Mark and he recommends a cooler from a 2003-2007 6.0 truck.

So...any words of wisdom are appreciated...the tranny will go in middle of next week.
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelman55 View Post
Hmmm...a couple of questions and some history on the vehicle.

Question 1. How would the added cooling on the tranny affect the in cab temp of the AC?

Question 2. Are you recommending no cooler in front of the radiator?
answer 1. the big cooler in front of your a/c condenser will mean your just passing hot air through it and not effectively cooling the condenser so you will have horrible a/c. I've seen a lot of trucks with a big trans cooler between the condenser and radiator to get around that issue.

answer 2. you definitely want a cooler, but the right size cooler. not over/under sized for what's needed. the transmission just like the engine has an optimal temp range, and that's where you want to keep it.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:19 PM
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Yes, you can run the 6.0 or V10 cooler. It is aVERY common swap in the 99-03 Superduty and since the E4OD is just a WEAK 4R100, it is even a better idea on the E4OD
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Old 07-18-2014, 04:22 PM
Wheelman55 Wheelman55 is offline
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So...what do the original tranny coolers look
like in a '93 gasser?

Does anybody have a picture of the cooler?

Messing with the cold factor on the AC is not an option for where I'm going to be using the truck.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FORDF250HDXLT View Post
1.those are upgrades for trans that are not build like our E40D's.our pumps run full flow on all the time.when the converter locks,they pump massive amounts of fluid through the coolers.when the latter trans converter locks,their pumps slow down.thats why they can use the massive coolers like that in heavy towers,rated to tow much more than our old trucks....should lol.
No, that's not right.

The E4OD reduces cooler flow when the converter is locked, just like the later transmissions. And no, the pump doesn't slow down. The flow to the cooler is reduced, but nothing else is.

And even if that was true, it's irrelevant. What is relevant is how much heat is sent to the cooler, not how much flow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FORDF250HDXLT View Post
2.the more coolers you place in front of your radiator and other coolers,the lower their efficiency become.
That is true. It's a small point, but it is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FORDF250HDXLT View Post
so in short,your E40D shouldn't need a cooler of that size to maintain ideal trans temps and you don't want to needlessly make engine cooling a harder chore,or raise your in cab a/c temps as you'll likely just not gain anything......save for an over cooled trans which may not burn off the moisture like it should,lead to milky atf and then trans failure.
It isn't that the E4OD doesn't need the cooling. It depends on the usage, not the transmission. If he is working the trans hard enough, then yes, it will need that much cooling.

Overcooling is a problem in the far north. A cheap solution to that is a winter front, or what I used to use when I lived in the Great White North, a large piece of cardboard in front of the cooler.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
No, that's not right.

The E4OD reduces cooler flow when the converter is locked, just like the later transmissions.
yes, it is right.

im sorry Mark but im correct,your are mistaken.


the E40D runs much,much warmer before lockup occurs (i know this very well as i work my truck daily and it can most easily be seen when snow plowing.)
here is a good article explaining how the on/off style pumps used in the E40D's work (or are controlled might be a better term)

Quote:
Even though the converters may be similar or the same, the hydraulic control is different. The orifices that control the flow to cooler vs. the converter apply differ between the two units. You can verify this by comparing cooler flow on both types of units.

The E4OD will have less cooler flow when TCC is not applied; flow rises sharply with TCC command. Average E4OD cooler flow, in 3rd with TCC not applied is 1.2 to 1.4 GPM and goes to 1.8 to 2.0 GPM at time of TCC command. It is almost the opposite of the 4R100. The 4R100 with modulated converter control drops during TCC apply and is greater before lockup (refer to chart). The E4OD does not have the external pressure bypass either. This makes the E4OD much easier to diagnose. You can identify when the TCC solenoid commands apply by looking for a rise in flow or pressure. You then know the apply valve has stroked.
taken from (way down the page) here:
4R100 Repeated Converter Failure - Sonnax

pumping out so much volume while locked up drastically lowers the trans temps.in fact Mark,as a quick safe method i use if iv been plowing for a long period of time (i don't need to,,but i like to keep my temps no higher than 200F,i know i can go higher,but i don't plow commercially and can take the break) and i see the trans temps creeping up,what i'll do is simply drive down the road a mile and a mile back,even with the plow on,once the converter locks she'll cool way way down again fast even with the plow on blocking the air flow.then i'll resume plowing again.
my trans rebuilder explained the E40D's pump flows super amounts once she locks (i do recall him stating the #'s above but had forgotten them) then someone posted that link,and that's when i learned the 4r100's just didn't pump like that.that's when i realized why the jumbo coolers like that used in the 6.0l trucks were so recommended in the SD sections of the forum.
i run the tru-cool 4739 with the thermal (180F) bypass on both my trucks and she keeps the atf near perfect full time.
i do have e-fans on the plow truck now,so i can and do sometimes just keep that on high when plowing and no longer need to get to lockup to cool it back down,but it's nice to know what works if needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
That is true. It's a small point, but it is true.
perhaps to this guy running the 460...ok sure.but to those of us running intercooled diesels,it can be a large enough factor that your engine fans will need to run locked up more often,and slightly increases the intake air because the intercooler is being cooled with warmer air shed off the large trans cooler.
i had to drop my tru-cool Mark because it was causing my e-fans (i have an in cab indicator) to run much,much too often once i installed an intercooler.once i dropped that (the tans cooler,not the intercooler of course lol) down behind the bumper, things sure ran a lot cooler.it matters.

i always say trans temp gauge first.do what you do with the truck and where you do it,and then you can get a good feel for the size of cooler you might need to upgrade to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
It isn't that the E4OD doesn't need the cooling. It depends on the usage, not the transmission. If he is working the trans hard enough, then yes, it will need that much cooling.
correct.however it is "most likely" the case,that if he were to use his pickup in the manner it would take to overheat the trans,so that a 6.0l trans cooler should be used,then it's probably going to be because he is trying to gross weight ratings that of the SD era diesel equipped trucks do.his older rig simply shouldn't be pushed that far past it's ratings.it's likely his stock E40D would fail even if he did keep it a perfect 170-180F regardless.it simply wasn't built for those ratings.
(least not without being in the f-super duty/f450 with the strong low gearing to take the brunt of things.)
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:16 PM
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Why in the world did they do that. TCC not applied is when you need the MOST flow thru the cooler. Does the clutch pressure change when TCC on vs. off?
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:12 PM
Wheelman55 Wheelman55 is offline
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Making progress...thanks all you guys.

The Portland Ford shop did some research on the project. They came up with using a '97 tranny and a '03 7.3 cooler. They said that the '97 has six planetary gears instead of the three that the '93 has.

Brian from BTS suggested replacing my solid bumper with one with the three holes across the front for more air movement. LMC has the bumper in stock.

FWIW I sent Brian some $$ for his beverage fund as thanks for taking time out of his day to help me.

It's highly unlikely that I'll ever be towing 5 tons of hay up a ten percent grade. So hopefully this setup will give me long life to the tranny as well as cold AC.

Further comments welcome...
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:48 AM
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FORDF250HDXLT you realize you are arguing with the guy who pretty much Designed and Built this trans for Ford?
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:48 AM
 
 
 
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