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I tow 18k behind me. So for me it's a no brainer to go 6.7 under this scenario.
Even with my current truck I am at the border of capabilities. So the answer to your question is going to be different based on use and preference. For the 6.7 stories you hear now, they were around for every truck when new. So that shouldn't bear on it now.
As for the money of buying new, this scenario made it irrelevant. Real life however, is why I drive my paid for '05. All things equal, there'd be a '15 F450 in my driveway now.
6.7 vs
7."35" engine, which is a 7.3, "re-imagined" brand new engine, almost 100% identical to a 7.3, sharing zero parts.
Every single bolt, casting, electrical plug, injector, is 100% identical to a 7.3, but will not interchange with any 7.3 part.
The mechanical internals are cast identical to the 7.3, so reliablity would be identical, but any 7.3 parts from used sources or online shops won't fit. Only ford is the source of parts, for at least a few years.
So would you choose a 6.7, or 250 hp brand new "7.35" which operated identical to a 7.3, but built 100% new from ford?
That argument is kinda pointless though. There isn't an internal engine problem in the slightest with the 6.7.
So it's all the same except the 6.7 based truck is leaps and bounds ahead of this "7.35". So you are paying $60,000 for a truck with 90's tech or $60,000 for a truck with current tech. Easy choice still...
That is a different scenario. The aftermarket support was part of "the cheat" for the 7.3L. Without that, there is a bigger stack of poker chips in front of the 6.7L. This still doesn't get me past the body lift, though. Others may feel differently. This isn't a Bic lighter you just toss when used up.
As for my HP numbers - I'm counting on my tuner's expertise on that one. He loaded me up with tunes that have been on the dyno with similarly-equipped 7.3L Superdutys. Restoring the truck to like-new running condition (which I have done) is not as common as just powering it up - so I have reason to believe the dyno numbers on the other trucks will hold true on Stinky.
I don't tow in race tune, I thought I mentioned that.
I never said the performance of Stage II injectors was all that... I just think that once you shred tires (and lose the ***) in Torque Converter Lock Up - how much more power do we really need?
When the 6.7L can do that in 4WD and hold together, we can talk.
You said it yourself, you are guessing at the numbers. Your guess is based off of somebody else's guess. I never said you have to race in your race tune either....
It is pretty easy to spin the tires when the converter locks when they are ALREADY spinning. Still not impressed.
I'll pay for your entry to the track if you provide the time slip after. I have no doubt a 6.7 would hold together doing that. Even my junky little 6.0 can handle a flogging at the track. I sure would hope a "legendary" 7.3 with $20,000 can handle a track day. Apparently not....
Originally Posted by Tugly
For $60,000, the damn thing had better not need service for the rest of my life. I used the injector bolt "example" to illustrate that as soon as I need new injectors on the 6.7L (or something akin to a UVCH, or gawd knows what the future brings), I'm screwed. Can you imagine having to remove the body on our 7.3L to fix the UVCH... or replace glow plugs?
As for the injector that kept working its way loose, there was a mechanical problem that caused it, and it was solved this winter. The problem could have just as easily happened to the Ford mechanic, and they would have been deep in my pockets to resolve it... if the body needed to be lifted to get at it.
Stinky is paid for - and all the mods have been purchased with cash as time and finances would allow. All the while, I've been driving him from what I started with to where he is now. The 6.7L and all that "wonderful" power, features, and smoothness needs $60K today. If you don't have $60K in your Buck$Zooka, you have to pay a bank interest to pre-load the ammo. The interest, insurance payment, vehicle licensing, DPF supplies, and DEF cost as much as my normal operational costs for Stinky - with fuel. Once you factored all of that into the 6.7L, you still have to add the fuel cost and the monthly payment.
I'm out $30K to date, leaving me with another $30K in reserve for future repairs/upgrades to counter the cost of having a shinier truck with no more performance than I have now. If I break Stinky tomorrow, I can park him and shut off the money spigot. Can you do that if you have a loan for the 6.7L?
Sure sounds like a lot of justification for driving an old truck....
Depends on your needs and perspective......But to be fair I wouldn't call a truck 9 model years old terribly up to date either........lol.....
The way I look at it, mine suits my needs, it's paid for, cheap to fix, easy to work on for what I would do. Similar to the 6.0L. If I thought dropping $50K+ on a 6.7L would suit my needs better, I would probably do it. I just just don't see $50K more value there than what I have for what I need it for.....and I'm not someone who has a tax advantage to write off the $800/mo payments.
The 6.0 is a very capable engine with a few bucks thrown in to true things up.........to each there own. It isn't like any of the PSDs etc. suck at the end of the day none are perfect.
In any discussion I wouldn't expect people to readily admit they made a horrible decision.....and inevitably someone will think they would have done things differently.
No, it wasn't the original scenario that I posted. The term "out of date" cracks me up, though. I have more power, just as much on-board technology, more gauges, the wheels spin the same, it pulls the same (upgraded transmission) - but Stinky rides and sounds rougher than a 6.7L.
Getting back to the original scenario - If I had to pay $60K for a new 7.3L, I would know for certain that I could maintain it after the warranty was up. Not just because of the availability of aftermarket parts, but because my 7.3L (and the 6.0L as well) has something the "modern and advanced" 6.7L (and 6.4L) doesn't - access to the engine. If serviceability is an out-of-date concept - call me an old codger. People who are more apt to buy new instead of keep and maintain won't look at it this way - they just keep replacing the vehicle when it annoys them or the next shiny thing comes out.
That's the other elephant in the room that has been touched on, but not fully explored: Borrow and buy vs. hold and maintain. Those with the ability to drop $60K cash on a new truck (and have done so) aren't as likely to hang around the 7.3L forum.
I have no debt, other than the used Prius I bought. The small payment, plus the fuel to operate it is "free". I save that much money in diesel every month by not driving Stinky to work. When the Prius is paid-off in a couple of years (with a very low interest loan), that money I save is in my pocket. My wife has a mortgage from before we married, but we are looking to sell the house and buy a 5th wheel with the cash. I hate debt and I hate paying interest/finance charges. While it's the "American way" to borrow and buy - that's the up-to-date version. The original "American way" was to strike out, build your own home, plant and till the field, hunt, and be beholden to no one. Times change and we can no longer be self-sufficient to that degree - we count on infrastructure to get to work to earn money to buy groceries others provide. I still do what I can to be as self-sufficient as our reality allows. This is the modified old American way.
The original owners of the 7.3L had to buy expensive CPS sensors when they failed, then the recall came and the sensor was free or much cheaper. $10,000 for "water damage" to a fuel system while in the warranty period of the truck? When we buy the same fuel and don't get water damage? This smells like the makings of a recall and eventually - a class-action suit. Having a failed fuel system on a 6.7L is like drawing a bad card in the game of Truckopoly (as I've stated on the 6.7L forum):
More power? There you go speculating again.
Just as much technology? Hah. Right. Nope.
More gauges? Knock yourself out. It is nice driving trucks that you don't have to watch a tablet full of stuff to keep it running.
Pulls the same? I doubt that. Ever driven a 6.7?
Tugly: What I have learned from your post here and your post in the 6.7 forum and from what I have surmised about you from reading your posts in this 7.3 forum is:
1. Don't drive a 6.7 *
2. We are going to miss you, because you will. **
3. You will not buy a 6.7 now. You will sell your house, buy the non-5'er travel trailer and pull it with Stinky and see how it goes, and only if that lifestyle meets your expecations will you make friends with someone with a body lift and move up to the 6.7 Stinky II and the luxury 5'er, and post-retirement, drive all over the nation visiting us for old time's sake and cold beers.
* Because when you sell your house and have money burning in your pockets and you need that extra torque for that 5'er and it does get better mileage empty after all which would mean that you could sell the Puss and save some dough there.
** Because think about all those interesting sensors to log with your AE and the mysteries of DEF and regen which you could explore and all that other interesting stuff and, after all, those guys over at the 6.7 forum probably need you more than us, since your work here is mainly done and there will always be an archive of material for us to mine by that legendary Tugly fellow.
Tugly: What I have learned from your post here and your post in the 6.7 forum and from what I have surmised about you from reading your posts in this 7.3 forum is:
1. Don't drive a 6.7 *
2. We are going to miss you, because you will. **
3. You will not buy a 6.7 now. You will sell your house, buy the non-5'er travel trailer and pull it with Stinky and see how it goes, and only if that lifestyle meets your expecations will you make friends with someone with a body lift and move up to the 6.7 Stinky II and the luxury 5'er, and post-retirement, drive all over the nation visiting us for old time's sake and cold beers.
I would never think of suggesting to others how they make their choices - I just share my thoughts and invite others to share theirs. I welcome counterpoints to my view, because that's the way I learn things... and based on the feedback here on the forum - others learn right along with me. That is the one legacy I would hope to leave behind - more members that question everything, rather than just take "groupthink" or a single post on the forum as gospel. My friend MisterCMK might take this questioning everything to a higher limit, but he gets the idea.
I know I've scrambled my plans around the forum, but I am shopping for a 5'er. No target is in the Buck$Zooka crosshairs yet, I still have a lot of stuff to sell and my "free" time has been eviscerated by a crushing workload.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
You said it yourself, you are guessing at the numbers. Your guess is based off of somebody else's guess.
There is a difference between a "guess" and an educated guess. If you have a problem with the reasoning behind his numbers, take it up with the guy that live-tuned Stinky.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
It is pretty easy to spin the tires when the converter locks when they are ALREADY spinning. Still not impressed.
Originally Posted by Tugly
I never said the performance of Stage II injectors was all that.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
I'll pay for your entry to the track if you provide the time slip after.
Or... since my choice disrupts your Chi so much - I can buy the 6.7L and you can offer to pay for the first truck failure while under warranty. I promise not to put DEF in the fuel spout - so your chances of not paying anything are pretty good. You can put the money for a new fuel system in escrow until the warranty period is up, that way you can prove you can walk the talk... and you'll have your money back to buy your 6.7L.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
I have no doubt a 6.7 would hold together doing that.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
There you go speculating again.
Don't be so hard on yourself... I would have found a more polite way to phrase a response to your speculation.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
Sure sounds like a lot of justification for driving an old truck....
Absolutely perfect word. A quick visit to the dictionary would show a difference between "justification" and "rationalization".
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
Just as much technology? Hah. Right. Nope.
My fault on this one - I didn't qualify my statement. I have as much technology in the cab, not under the hood.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
More gauges? Knock yourself out. It is nice driving trucks that you don't have to watch a tablet full of stuff to keep it running.
Tell that to the 6.7L owners with cracked valves. I'd bet it would have been nice to know the EGTs... to see if that was a cause.
Originally Posted by MisterCMK
Pulls the same? I doubt that. Ever driven a 6.7?
Ever driven Stinky?
Chris - While I appreciate the questions you raise (readers would have the same questions and I am glad to discuss them - I might learn something), I grow weary of your rude nature, ignoring the answers posted and throwing the same disrespectful counterpoint out there, and even arguing with yourself. I understand if you are upset that a 7.3L could possibly be as powerful as your truck with my lowly Stage II sticks. That does not mean I have to respond to your urge to visit the 7.3L forum (while owning a 6.0L) and regale us with the miraculous virtues of the 6.7L - all in a disrespectful tone to my brothers and I.
The short and direct response (since evidence points to this being your favored method of communication): I'm done with you.
That is a very valid point. To date - I've had to "modify" a couple of vacations because of problems with my upgrades... but those are self-inflicted. If I kept Stinky in stock configuration and maintained his 100% condition, those events would not have happened. I'm proactive, and I do what I can on my schedule - to prevent the scenario you describe.
Having such a vehicle for recreational purposes (as opposed to using it for an income) is an expensive venture - whether new or used. It's not unlike being beholden to the truck - labor or dollars or both... it's going to get a piece of you. Do I need a diesel Superduty? I lived my life just fine before I bought one. Now that I have it, and I have some skin in the game - I want to take it to the next level and live in a home that gets pulled behind it.
And how someone uses their pickup definitely influences their needs in the vehicle.
Back when I was driving my 7.3 40,000+ miles a year, I spent very little money on "more power", because the pickup could do everything I needed in that respect. Instead I concentrated on things that made it quieter, ride better, improved economy, and increased longevity because those are the areas it was lacking for my needs or were of the greatest benefit financially to me.
I made the comment earlier that in 5 or 10 years the aftermarket world will likely catch up with the 6.7. Years ago the 6.0 had issues from the factory. Today, with the right know-how, tuning, and aftermarket parts, that motor is a real good bargain, and just as dependable as any motor out there.
Again, to get sidetracked from the original topic, i guess it comes to different strokes for different folks (heh, no pun intended), but when i bought my truck back in 2006 with 52k on the clock, i knew what i wanted specifically and my goal was to get at least 500k out of her before moving on. I knew that would entail pull some wrenches from time to time, which i absolutely do not mind doing. Thats me, and apparently that is Rich too. But that may not be for others, maybe they are the kind that drives it a few years and then when the warranty is about to expire or there is some predisposed mileage that they dont want to exceed they go and trade it in for all the new bells and whistles and avoid all the wrench turning. Thats fine, thats great, absolutely nothing wrong with that, thats you. So i can see where those kind of guys would absolutely tout the 6.7 , and they are probably correct in their own mind. But for others with a goal in mind of longevity, we may be correct as well, in our own mind. Now that im nearing the 300k number, im feeling like i can extend my goal to 700k after talking with others and their experiences. But to get there, im gonna have to get my hands dirty turning some wrenches myself, and the little bit of extra room to do so is a plus. When friends tell me to its time for a new truck, i tell them that my truck makes a special sound each morning when i crank it up, when it starts it sounds like its paid for, and that im gonna run it til the wheels fall off, and then ill put new wheels on it and keep going. But thats just me, Im gonna be rolling this 7.3 for quite some time more. Not saying i wont buy anything else, just that im not getting rid of this one, i love this truck. Im reminded of the SNL vid where the guy was "loving" his car.... that how i feel sometimes..... LOL
07-14-2014, 09:43 AM
