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  #31  
Old 07-06-2014, 01:56 PM
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Tugly, I had a 460 also. And a Ford 400, a 351M, a couple of 302s, a 289, and I forgot what engine was in my Mercury Montego wagon. Anyway, lots of experience with Ford gas engines, and my last truck prior to going with the 7.3L diesel was the carbureted 460. With eerily similar experience, I totally get why you went diesel, coming from the 460.

However, that being said, the V10 is not even a distance cousin twice removed from a 460. It is an entirely different animal. I have a V10 also, an older 2 valve version. it is a dream to drive compared to any Ford gasoline motor I've ever owned. Snappy, quiet, powerful... it just works. The V10 I have is in a van chassis cab, where quietness around the doghouse is better appreciated.

Going back in time, knowing then what I know now, I wouldn't dismiss the V10 out of hand in a heavy pulling truck like I did back then. Back then, my experience was colored by the 460 and 400. Now, 15 years later, I recognize what a leap forward the modular block family was for reliability in Ford gas engines.

Think about it. More than 75% of the front engined Class A motorhomes, and an equally high estimation of Class C motorhomes, as well as the hundreds of thousands of gas engined airporter transport busses, school busses, passenger vans, cargo vans... and the literally millions of taxi cabs and police cars... all heavy service vehicles with constant uptime in applications where reliability is key... all running on those modular block motors. These aren't our father's Ford engines.

I know this is a 7.3L forum, but I'm still curious to hear from Shake N Bake if the V10's in his fleet have cost less per year to operate than the equivalent chassis 450's with 7.3's.
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  #32  
Old 07-06-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Y2KW57 View Post
Tugly, I had a 460 also. And a Ford 400, a 351M, a couple of 302s, a 289, and I forgot what engine was in my Mercury Montego wagon. Anyway, lots of experience with Ford gas engines, and my last truck prior to going with the 7.3L diesel was the carbureted 460. With eerily similar experience, I totally get why you went diesel, coming from the 460.

However, that being said, the V10 is not even a distance cousin twice removed from a 460. It is an entirely different animal. I have a V10 also, an older 2 valve version. it is a dream to drive compared to any Ford gasoline motor I've ever owned. Snappy, quiet, powerful... it just works. The V10 I have is in a van chassis cab, where quietness around the doghouse is better appreciated.

Going back in time, knowing then what I know now, I wouldn't dismiss the V10 out of hand in a heavy pulling truck like I did back then. Back then, my experience was colored by the 460 and 400. Now, 15 years later, I recognize what a leap forward the modular block family was for reliability in Ford gas engines.

Think about it. More than 75% of the front engined Class A motorhomes, and an equally high estimation of Class C motorhomes, as well as the hundreds of thousands of gas engined airporter transport busses, school busses, passenger vans, cargo vans... and the literally millions of taxi cabs and police cars... all heavy service vehicles with constant uptime in applications where reliability is key... all running on those modular block motors. These aren't our father's Ford engines.

I know this is a 7.3L forum, but I'm still curious to hear from Shake N Bake if the V10's in his fleet have cost less per year to operate than the equivalent chassis 450's with 7.3's.
Great post, good points.

For me, when I needed a vehicle to tow the horse(s) I wanted something reliable, powerful enough that I wouldn't be struggling on hills etc. and something that would last a while with some dilligence on my part.

I already had a 2001 tundra that I didn't want to tow live animals with, not that it couldn't I jsut wanted something more sturdy......and in the price range I was looking a 250 7.3L fit the bill perfectly. If I bought something new at the time it may have been a gasser who knows, but I wasn't buying a new 6.4 at the time I knew that.

I think we all know the 7.3L is reliable drivetrain with proper love along the way and can give many years of service, the thing we all begin to struggle with a little (I think IMHO) is the platforms with the 7.3 are really starting to show their age in both wear and ride quality compared to the newer rigs.

Thjat being said......for half the price of a new 6.7 we can have a very well built up and reliable 7.3 capable of doing all of what a 6.7 can.
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  #33  
Old 07-06-2014, 09:35 PM
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I've been looking at the economy numbers on the V10, and they translate directly to my experience with the 460. The old joke "It'll pass anything but a gas station" comes to mind. If I ate like that, I'd need Dodge tow mirrors on my motorcycle - to see around myself.
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  #34  
Old 07-06-2014, 11:12 PM
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I am a 7.3 fan all the way. Love that I bought one and never want to get rid of it. But I agree as stated above also. My dad has a 2000 2 valve v-10 with over 300,000 one it. It's been a great truck and gets a consistent 10 mpg. While that isn't great it is a worthy motor and has been very reliable.
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  #35  
Old 07-07-2014, 09:06 AM
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Let me answer a question with another question; How reliable is a stock 7.3 assembly around 400 hp, towing?
I bet a 7.3 juiced to 400 hp would cost you more money to run than a 6.7.
Because the MPG would probably actually go down a touch, and stuff would melt faster. Especially towing.

The only thing better on a 7.3, IMHO, is the more reliable HEUI injectors, and lack of emissions stuff.
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  #36  
Old 07-07-2014, 12:38 PM
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Let me answer a question with another question; How reliable is a stock 7.3 assembly around 400 hp, towing?
I bet a 7.3 juiced to 400 hp would cost you more money to run than a 6.7.
Because the MPG would probably actually go down a touch, and stuff would melt faster. Especially towing.

The only thing better on a 7.3, IMHO, is the more reliable HEUI injectors, and lack of emissions stuff.
But to match a 6.7 all you need is about 330-350hp at the wheels give or take, and that can be a very reliable, cool running target with the 7.3L.

My buddy is lucky to see 16mpg empty with his 6.7 with a ladder rack on it, 14-15.5 towing a light contractor trailer....about 4000lbs

For what most people tow (based on gut feel without any scientific surveys) which is <10K or so.......that 7.3L would do just fine properly set up compared to the 6.7L. I'm not saying it would absolutely hang with a 6.7 on a mountain pass etc. but it wouldn't embarrass itself either, plus, the 7.3L is heavier with the extra $30K in small unmarked bills left over in the bed of the 7.3L.....
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  #37  
Old 07-07-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tugly View Post
I've been looking at the economy numbers on the V10, and they translate directly to my experience with the 460. The old joke "It'll pass anything but a gas station" comes to mind.

You must have had a good 460. My 460 got 6 mpg. Six. Ford trucks and vans of that era had dual fuel tanks. And in '79, the year of my previous truck and van, cheap gas was an astronomical 89 cents a gallon. Just 6 years earlier, it was 25 cents. The old joke used to be "i'll give you five bucks to fill up your tank", only, it wasn't a joke... it was a generosity, as there would usually be money left over to buy a pack of smokes, also at 25 cents. (Since we are traveling back in time.)

Anyway, I'll take the 10 mpg of the V10 in exchange for it's much better reliability, cooler running, and lower operating cost over the gas motors that preceded it, AND over the all the six point x powerstroke motors that followed it.

That's part of the privilege of shopping in hindsight through a time machine, as opposed to having to guess at the unproven.

One google search of "Ford 6.7 exhaust valves" will yield enough images and videos of cracked and splintered exhaust valves of bone stock Ford 6.7 diesels with not more than 100,000 miles on them... typically less... to give anyone some serious pause. Then add "dropped valve" to the search terms, to get images of genaded cylinders from untimely collisions with the piston. Then add "high pressure fuel pump" and "water" to the search terms. There isn't enough hours left in life to read the litany of lamentations on the 6.7.

Out of over 2 million 7.3L Powerstrokes produced, who here has had to pay $16,000 for a new fuel system because of water in the fuel? In 14 years of fueling the 7.3L, I've never once seen a Water in Fuel light even blink. I've drawn sample after sample from the fuel bowl, looking for water. None found. So is it really the "poor fuel quality in the USA" that is taking the 6.7 out of service?
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  #38  
Old 07-07-2014, 12:57 PM
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If I had the money for a time machine... I would probably not be too concerned about expenditures on a vehicle.

But to put it bluntly...
If someone were to GIVE me a brand new 6.7...

I'D sell it in a half a heartbeat and buy the nicest 7.3 for sale in the country... and still have plenty left over for a down payment on a shop to build the 7.3 up real nice.

Skrew a skerpion.
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  #39  
Old 07-07-2014, 01:26 PM
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I've considered the "total carbon footprint" of the pollution created in the manufacture of a new truck, and in the case of an unreliable new truck, the cost to manufacture another new truck every five years, just for me. Estimating the pollution created and energy and fuel consumed to manufacture, transport, and produce all the parts necessary to build, sell, deliver, maintain, and dispose of four trucks, where I can easily get the same 20 years out of just one truck, makes the old 7.3L less harmful to the environment in net terms.
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  #40  
Old 07-07-2014, 03:26 PM
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If I had the money for a time machine... I would probably not be too concerned about expenditures on a vehicle.

But to put it bluntly...
If someone were to GIVE me a brand new 6.7...

I'D sell it in a half a heartbeat and buy the nicest 7.3 for sale in the country... and still have plenty left over for a down payment on a shop to build the 7.3 up real nice.

Skrew a skerpion.
I have thought the same thing; Nice interior, good ride, but I don't want to fix it, and it needs more fixin' than people think. And that damn DEF is annoying as well.
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  #41  
Old 07-07-2014, 04:03 PM
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I remember when the 7.3 powerstroke first came out, a lot of the IDI guys complained about what a fly by wire electronic monstrosity it was compared to the IDI engines.

They laughed about people being stranded by a faulty throttle position sensor.

Engine dusting from the factory filter was a hot topic among them. People would show up on this forum absolutely furious because they spent $14,000 on a new engine.

They giggled about the CPS issues. At one point there was talk of a class action over that.

Anybody else remember how aggravated powerstroke owners were over injector cackle?

They pointed out the weakness of the 4R100 automatic.

In the end it all comes back around.

Myself, it would hands down be a new 6.7 given the choice.
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  #42  
Old 07-07-2014, 09:39 PM
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I remember when the 7.3 powerstroke first came out, a lot of the IDI guys complained about what a fly by wire electronic monstrosity it was compared to the IDI engines.
Ah... another point I have not yet made, nor have I seen it mentioned - electronics:

I've had to reboot my iOS phone a number of times, because I lost control of it. After receiving a meeting notification a day after the meeting occurred, I had to "hard reboot" the phone. My Android tablet locks up more often than I really want to advertise, my powerful laptop loses the ability to plug in a USB mouse, and the advanced computers at work need regular rebooting to keep them stable. The ECU on my Prius will up and freak out under just the right conditions, and I have to turn around three times and spit at 27.5 degrees on the compass for AE to clear the trouble codes.

Stinky just works day in and day out (on the electronics side), and the PLCs at work don't get reboots - they just work. I mention these two items because they have very simple (and limited) electronics. The more fancy-schamncy they try to get with the features provided by electronics, the less reliable they become. Complexity is inversely proportionate to reliability - that is carved into stone. I spent time under the hood and the frame of the 6.7L... and my Prius. Neither of these rigs are going to have the electronic reliability we have enjoyed with our 7.3Ls, so whatever mechanical nightmare scenario we come up with here... we are overlooking an elephant in the room.
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  #43  
Old 07-07-2014, 10:10 PM
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Ah... another point I have not yet made, nor have I seen it mentioned - electronics:

I've had to reboot my iOS phone a number of times, because I lost control of it. After receiving a meeting notification a day after the meeting occurred, I had to "hard reboot" the phone. My Android tablet locks up more often than I really want to advertise, my powerful laptop loses the ability to plug in a USB mouse, and the advanced computers at work need regular rebooting to keep them stable. The ECU on my Prius will up and freak out under just the right conditions, and I have to turn around three times and spit at 27.5 degrees on the compass for AE to clear the trouble codes.

Stinky just works day in and day out (on the electronics side), and the PLCs at work don't get reboots - they just work. I mention these two items because they have very simple (and limited) electronics. The more fancy-schamncy they try to get with the features provided by electronics, the less reliable they become. Complexity is inversely proportionate with reliability - that is carved into stone. I spent time under the hood and the frame of the 6.7L... and my Prius. Neither of these rigs are going to have the electronic reliability we have enjoyed with our 7.3Ls, so whatever mechanical nightmare scenario we come up with here... we are overlooking an elephant in the room.
Don't even need a battery to to keep an IDI 7.3 running............................
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:56 PM
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But to match a 6.7 all you need is about 330-350hp at the wheels give or take, and that can be a very reliable, cool running target with the 7.3L.

My buddy is lucky to see 16mpg empty with his 6.7 with a ladder rack on it, 14-15.5 towing a light contractor trailer....about 4000lbs

For what most people tow (based on gut feel without any scientific surveys) which is <10K or so.......that 7.3L would do just fine properly set up compared to the 6.7L. I'm not saying it would absolutely hang with a 6.7 on a mountain pass etc. but it wouldn't embarrass itself either, plus, the 7.3L is heavier with the extra $30K in small unmarked bills left over in the bed of the 7.3L.....

First of all, I am a huge supporter of driving what you own. Trading things in is such a money pit, it's hard to even dig out of. So as far as trading a running reliable 7.3 for anything, I say don't do it unless you simply need to... unless you're rich, then by all means, buy whatever you want.

But, the way I see it, the only way the 7.3 is "better", is reliability. The newer trucks have better transmissions, stronger engines, ride better, quieter, etc. They are just better vehicles. I had a 7.3, and I loved it, by all means. But after my 6.4 truck, I don't care if this thing costs more, I wouldn't buy a 7.3 again.
Now the thing is, with reliability being the key point here, how reliable is a 400+ hp 7.3 truck?
I know lots of guys that tow with 6.7 trucks with tuners, and they tow on a mild tune yet, without much fuss at all.

Would you really call a 7.3 juiced to 400 or 500 hp a reliable truck? I wouldn't. Unless you do head studs, turbo upgrade, transmission upgrade, etc, but thats a whole new argument.

I love 7.3 trucks, but I just don't see how anyone would put them in the same category as the 6.4's or 6.7's. Did everyone forget about the rods blowing holes in the block running 80 hp tunes on a few guys trucks?

Everyone seems so fast to point out that the newer engines can melt down and cause a major failure, but I think this was all out of proportion. Yes, a brand new engine costs like almost 20,000$, but was the 7.3 much different? Is it really a better engine, or just more affordable because it's older?
Remember when the 7.3's were relatively new? Injectors were like 800$ each! Would a 7.3 still be so awesome if you had to pay 800$ an injector, 4000$ for an HPOP, or 16,000$ for an engine assembly?
Probably not, because why would you spend that much to have 250 or 270 HP?!?

My point is this; newer engines always cost more, and as time goes by, the prices drop, mechanics start becoming more familiar, issues get learned, bullet proofing methods become known, etc.

My 6.4 truck that was relatively new when I got it, is already a few years old, and I've seen in passing, engines running for under 5000$, and other relatively cheap parts, if you know where to look. If I blow an engine, it is not going to cost 20,000$ to replace, as so many thought, only a few years ago.

Even the 6.0 deserves a touch of respect. Yes people had a lot of trouble with some of them, but consider this imagination fart:

325 hp 7.3, 6.0 egr system, 6.0 turbo, etc.
VS
250 hp 6.0, plain old 7.3 turbo, no egr.

Which one would be more reliable and better?
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:33 AM
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325 hp 7.3, 6.0 egr system, 6.0 turbo, etc.
VS
250 hp 6.0, plain old 7.3 turbo, no egr.

Which one would be more reliable and better?
I'd be taking that simple 6.0. No frills, enough horsepower, enough torque, tremendous reliability. Changing the coolant and adding a filter. I LIKES me some filters!

But I already have my reliable motor.

The "ride" reminds me that it's a truck with capacity.

Pop
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:33 AM
 
 
 
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