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I can look up vehicle fires that were put out by fire departments too and compare them to ones that weren't, huge difference. The little pile of rubble is whats left after the initial clean up, otherwise where is the frame? The frames are still steel.
I can look up vehicle fires that were put out by fire departments too and compare them to ones that weren't, huge difference. The little pile of rubble is whats left after the initial clean up, otherwise where is the frame? The frames are still steel.
How did you establish that the engine fire in the white current model steel bodied Ford truck posted above was "put out by a fire department"?
What makes you assume that I would (or even could) look up vehicle fires that were put out by fire departments, such that you can do it "too."?
For your information, the images posted above of the burnt white Ford diesel with a steel body that survived were found in an ad on my local craigslist last week, because that truck is being parted out. I just happened to run across it while looking for some updated parts for my truck. I have no idea how the fire started, nor how it was extinguished. If you do, then please post your facts.
In the meantime, this new photo below of the not so "little pile of rubble" has some interesting details, besides the irony of a water bottle in the center. Notice the hat channel support rib that is largely intact, despite the thoroughly melted, massive, and unrecognizable blobs of aluminum surrounding it.
That hat channel makes me wonder what material the cross ribs underneath the bed floor are made of. Truck beds are subject to a tremendous amount of flex variability, depending on what is loaded inside of them, so it would not surprise me to find steel being used in the cross ribs under a bed otherwise made of aluminum. If so, I wonder what mitigation measures were taken for dissimilar metal corrosion.
Without making any assumptions, here is the photo:
Generally i think that it is a good idea but i would be interested in seeing how it holds up and what the down sides are as far as life span and how easily it will get dinged and dented
How did you establish that the engine fire in the white current model steel bodied Ford truck posted above was "put out by a fire department"?
What makes you assume that I would (or even could) look up vehicle fires that were put out by fire departments, such that you can do it "too."?
For your information, the images posted above of the burnt white Ford diesel with a steel body that survived were found in an ad on my local craigslist last week, because that truck is being parted out. I just happened to run across it while looking for some updated parts for my truck. I have no idea how the fire started, nor how it was extinguished. If you do, then please post your facts.
In the meantime, this new photo below of the not so "little pile of rubble" has some interesting details, besides the irony of a water bottle in the center. Notice the hat channel support rib that is largely intact, despite the thoroughly melted, massive, and unrecognizable blobs of aluminum surrounding it.
That hat channel makes me wonder what material the cross ribs underneath the bed floor are made of. Truck beds are subject to a tremendous amount of flex variability, depending on what is loaded inside of them, so it would not surprise me to find steel being used in the cross ribs under a bed otherwise made of aluminum. If so, I wonder what mitigation measures were taken for dissimilar metal corrosion.
Without making any assumptions, here is the photo:
Plenty of cars have been using aluminum, think Jaguar, and I have never heard of the problem you're trying to fabricate. If you're against this innovative move, you better go pick up a current generation half-ton because I seriously doubt GM and Chrysler will loiter in the past with steel bodies.
Plenty of cars have been using aluminum, think Jaguar, and I have never heard of the problem you're trying to fabricate. If you're against this innovative move, you better go pick up a current generation half-ton because I seriously doubt GM and Chrysler will loiter in the past with steel bodies.
"Problem I'm trying to fabricate"????
And what "problem" would that be, specifically?
The question of this thread asks "is aluminum for the Super Duty a good thing". Not for a Jaguar, or an Audi, or for the hood and liftgate of an Expedition or many of the other Ford cars and SUVs that currently use aluminum for a few selected parts... but for a Super Duty truck that hauls loads and undergoes a great deal more operational stress than a Jaguar car.
I don't know the answer to the question on the table... but it seems worthy of discussing, and that is what this is: a discussion forum. Presenting pictures and making observations about the prototype aluminum Super Duty seems more pertinent to add to the discussion, rather than attacking other members, unjustifiably accusing them of "fabricating problems" and suggesting that they "pick up a current generation half ton." How is that relevant to the Super Duty? Nevermind. Don't answer. Let's get back to the topic please.
Regarding the discussion of fire - that Super Duty, I don't believe aluminum was the cause of the fire (I believe it was some of the disguising cover that made it catch fire). Yes, aluminum will have more damage to it than steel being exposed to fire because of its lower melting point, but I don't think this will impact any users, as almost any vehicle that has fire damage on it (steel or aluminum) will be written off anyway.
As for "working vehicles". Land Rovers - the utilitarian ones - have been made with aluminum bodies since 1948, and still are today. You can still go out and buy a Series I Land Rover (the first land rover) today that has been to hell and back and the body will be in good condition. The bits that they have problems with are the firewall (steel) and chassis (also steel).
Good example: http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/snowt...ion/1053596494
why would the use of aluminum bodies be different on a Super Duty than the other aluminum vehicles? Are people attaching their trailers to the door panels? The frame takes all the stresses. The only time it doesn't is when the frame is bending or twisting too much. I am confident Ford will put in a fully-boxed frame to eliminate that for 2016.
The "so what" comes into play when "burn through quicker" means less time available to unstrap or unbuckle kids from the car seats in back.
Nevermind the status of the truck.
In this post, you are implying that steel is superior to aluminum because of the meager possibility of a fire. If that is not what you are getting at, then you are right, I certainly will not answer.
Big Foot... a few heated remarks are to be expected... it's obviously a hot topic right now!
Context:
Originally Posted by tseekins
If my truck catches on fire, I want it to be a total loss so I can get a new one. Aluminum will burn through quicker than steel, so what. It's totaled either way.
Originally Posted by Y2KW57
The "so what" comes into play when "burn through quicker" means less time available to unstrap or unbuckle kids from the car seats in back. Nevermind the status of the truck.
Originally Posted by aortizexcursion
In this post, you are implying that steel is superior to aluminum because of the meager possibility of a fire.
Not quite. In my response to TeeSkins comment of "aluminum will burn through quicker than steel, so what", I am saying that the status of the truck being "totaled" is of less concern to me than the status of any living creature in the truck surviving the ordeal without injury. It's one thing for a couple of able bodied men to hop out of a cab in a few seconds. It's quite another for a panicked mother to get out, and then go around back to unstrap all of her kids out their car seats, and or to extract her elderly grandmother out of the other side.
Therefore, IF, and I never claimed to know the answer, but IF aluminum burns quicker than steel, THEN the "so what" comes into play, because making sure the truck is a total loss for insurance purposes is less important to me than making sure there is a total NON loss of life or limb.
Extrapolating anything more from my quote outside of the context it was in response to would be doing a bit of "fabricating" yourself.
Now, answering the IF part is directly on topic of this discussion. Many of us have seen the articles where Ford implanted about six aluminum F150s in 3 different field testing environments, to see how they held up working. Fair enough. And, we know that NHTSA requires that new vehicles be crash tested for occupancy protection. We can assume this has been done, and/or will be for the Super Duty. Good enough.
What I don't know, however, is whether completed vehicles are required to be "fire" tested. Purposely set afire by the most probable means of a vehicle catching fire, and observing what happens. To my knowledge, the Feds don't require auto manufacturer's to set their vehicles on fire. About 20 years ago, an outfit called FM Global, funded by the insurance industry and GM, tested about 6 or 7 cars for fire, by first crashing them, and then initiating a fire under the body, and then under the hood. I think the motivation for the effort was instigated by a suit in court, but I don't know. Needless to say, those were all steel bodied cars. From speaking with a researcher on vehicle fires, most fires start under the hood... not in the rear near the fuel tanks. Anyway, I don't believe the government requires fire specific tests.
Ford probably didn't intend for such an impromptu and publicized test in Death Valley, but here is one thing that happened with this particular aluminum body: Terrific spontaneous thermite like explosions...
According to the eyewitness account, there were several such explosions, and at least two specific explosive events were caught with impeccable timing on camera. Are these spark spewing explosions something a slower person would want happening around them while they are trying to escape?
Here is a recent article in Forbes magazine that touches on the topic at the end of the passage selected below:
Originally Posted by FORBES: William Baldwin
A bum truck driver crumpled my left fender. His insurer, Progressive Corp., took a look and sent me a check for $2,844. But when I brought the car in for repair, the body shop encountered a complication.
There was a small dent in the hood. If the hood had been made of steel, it could have been repaired with Bondo, a sander and paint. But this one was made of aluminum, and the shop refused to tangle with it. A new hood was purchased. Progressive had to cough up a supplement of $2,109.
An article in FenderBender magazine explains what’s going on. Aluminum is hard to work with. If someone in the next bay is grinding steel, iron oxide particles contaminate the aluminum and cause paint adhesion problems. The two metals (in combination with magnesium, common in luxury vehicles) can also give rise to potentially explosive thermite reactions.
Here is what The Aluminum Association, the aluminum industry's "leading advocacy" association "committed to advancing aluminum as the sustainable metal of choice around the world", says about aluminum explosions and molten aluminum:
Originally Posted by The Aluminum Association
Contact with molten aluminum can cause severe burns and create a serious fire hazard. Mixing water or other contaminants with molten aluminum can cause explosions.
Explosions can also occur in the aluminum scrap re-melting process due to moisture and contamination in scrap. These explosions range widely in violence and can result in injury or death...
Activities including the grinding, polishing, sawing, cutting, sanding and scratch brushing of aluminum generate fine aluminum particles, some of which are potentially explosive. These particles are known as “fines”, “dust” or “powder.”
In the case of aluminum, explosions can result if ignition occurs while particles are suspended in the air as a dust cloud, as the burning extends from one particle to another with extreme speed.
Potential sources of ignition include open flames, welding equipment, cutting torches, matches, cigarettes, faulty electrical equipment and static electrical charges.
Keep in mind, the above statements are made by the association who is PROMOTING the use of aluminum (not some steel industry proponent).
Unlike an aluminum hood, liftgate, or fender here and there, which can be found in many vehicles (especially hoods and liftgates), the all aluminum F150 and forthcoming Super Duty will be the first ultra HIGH VOLUME production vehicle (over 300,000 units per year per name plate) to use an all aluminum safety cage. Yes, the Jaguars have an all aluminum safety cage in the form of a unibody, but the unit volume of those uber expensive cars is less than 100,000 units per year.
The price point of Jaguars, and the well heeled market they reach, is not as sensitive to competition. People buy Jags because they want them, not because they need them to do work. Their market supports all the expenses of doing it right. But the farming, construction, mining, government, utility, as well as consumer sectors of the market who buy pickups are not likely shopping with Jaguar budgets. So the challenge taken up by Ford is to be able to produce these aluminum bodies at minimum cost, to meet their market. Sometimes, great ideas get bungled in execution, primarily from the efforts to control costs.
I take it the millions and millions of Land Rovers on the road don't count?
FWIW, I've been a member of the Australian Land Rover club for a number of years, and I've never heard of an accident where someone has encountered injury or death from a vehicle fire.
In this post, you are implying that steel is superior to aluminum because of the meager possibility of a fire. If that is not what you are getting at, then you are right, I certainly will not answer.
Y2K, you left out the rest of my post. Thanks for making your thoughts clear
I take it the millions and millions of Land Rovers on the road don't count?
FWIW, I've been a member of the Australian Land Rover club for a number of years, and I've never heard of an accident where someone has encountered injury or death from a vehicle fire.
08-09-2014, 04:31 PM
(scratches head)
