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  #46  
Old 09-24-2013, 12:27 PM
ramsay ramsay is offline
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I have something to add. I replaced my injector seals last October with Alliant AP0002. This kit included the top ol seal. Recently I experienced a hard hot start which can be read about here. http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/12...ues-again.html Last night I pulled all the seals from the opposite side and discovered more of the same type of damage except for one seal was perfect.
I called the retailer and described my findings, who in turn called Alliant. The story I got was that Alliant had a bad batch (too soft a compound) of upper oil seals which explains why some of the rings were good and some were not. Apparently some of the rings I got were old stock defective and the good ones were new stock updated material. From what I understand Alliant will warrantee them if they are found to be defective. I'm not sure if all the issues creator experienced were the result of nipple seal failure or if crappy oil seals were partially to blame.
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2005 6.0 Excursion Eddie Bauer 4x4. 300,200 miles. Mods: High Idle Mod, updated fuel pressure regulator spring, standpipes, dummy plugs, turbo oil drain and pressure tubes, brass **** style HFCM drain plug, 140 amp 6G alternator, Edge Evolution(tuner, code reader and gauges), Glow Shift fuel pressure gauge, digital voltmeter, touch screen stereo/DVD/GPS, Extended Life Coolant. Replaced EGR and oil coolers.
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  #47  
Old 10-19-2013, 05:01 PM
gmlcinc gmlcinc is offline
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We have a truck that we pulled apart last fall and did all the updates to the hpop among other things and all injectors were sent out and checked over and resealed by Superior Turbo & Injection out of detroit. We use the truck for plowing and it ran awesome right up until March. Then it started stalling when hot, fine around town but get on the express way and it would die in a few miles.

We ended up pulling the cab trying to find the leak because we suspected the supply tube from the pump but that wasn't the case. Its the injectors leaking at the top seal where it connects with the nipple cup.

We determined its the injector because the leak moves with the injector when we move it around to a different position. We also switched rails but had no change. We have two more extra injectors from superior diesel on hand we tried but they leak as well. They sent us new alliant o-ring kits and we resealed one injector two more times and it still leaks. We have new bostech nipple cups installed with their supplied cup o-ring as well. We also tried the bostech o-ring seal kit with no luck.

When we put in an old oem injector thats no good it sealed. So I pulled the oem top seal out of that injector put it in an injector from superior diesel and that leaked too! Were at a loss here and every time we pull the oil rail off again it wrecks the aluminum threads some more. It has literally been pulled at least 50 times trying to locate the leak and get this thing fixed.

Were going to try some oem injectors at this point.

A couple things were wondering is how is every one else fairing with the seal kits for the injectors? Do they work? which brand alliant or bostech and for how long?

And how much of an air leak is acceptable between the injector top seal and oil rail nipple cup when testing with shop air? We have been using the steelman engine ear electronic head phones to help pinpoint these leaks..
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  #48  
Old 10-19-2013, 06:41 PM
creator creator is offline
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Originally Posted by gmlcinc View Post
We have a truck that we pulled apart last fall and did all the updates to the hpop among other things and all injectors were sent out and checked over and resealed by Superior Turbo & Injection out of detroit. We use the truck for plowing and it ran awesome right up until March. Then it started stalling when hot, fine around town but get on the express way and it would die in a few miles.

We ended up pulling the cab trying to find the leak because we suspected the supply tube from the pump but that wasn't the case. Its the injectors leaking at the top seal where it connects with the nipple cup.

We determined its the injector because the leak moves with the injector when we move it around to a different position. We also switched rails but had no change. We have two more extra injectors from superior diesel on hand we tried but they leak as well. They sent us new alliant o-ring kits and we resealed one injector two more times and it still leaks. We have new bostech nipple cups installed with their supplied cup o-ring as well. We also tried the bostech o-ring seal kit with no luck.

When we put in an old oem injector thats no good it sealed. So I pulled the oem top seal out of that injector put it in an injector from superior diesel and that leaked too! Were at a loss here and every time we pull the oil rail off again it wrecks the aluminum threads some more. It has literally been pulled at least 50 times trying to locate the leak and get this thing fixed.

Were going to try some oem injectors at this point.

A couple things were wondering is how is every one else fairing with the seal kits for the injectors? Do they work? which brand alliant or bostech and for how long?

And how much of an air leak is acceptable between the injector top seal and oil rail nipple cup when testing with shop air? We have been using the steelman engine ear electronic head phones to help pinpoint these leaks..

On a 6.0 Do not use aftermarket injectors. It is well known on the forum and many have learned the hard way with thier wallets. This is the number one part that absolutely has to be OEM. The rebuilders (including) alliant power all clearly state that they don't do a full rebuild and with the 6.0l injector being the most fragile diesel injector made, you need a fully rebuilt injector. This is not th e place to save $30. Sounds like the top cavity was machined on your remans.

If you have good injector top seals and good nipple cup seals you will not get any air leaking at all (especially not with 125psi shop air).

Are you working on an 03-04 or an 05+?
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  #49  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:25 PM
gmlcinc gmlcinc is offline
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This one is an 05. Also have an 06 that we had to put three injectors in and it is starting harder now and we have been suspecting the replaced injectors..

But we had heard about the remans leaking from one of Ron Huxell's youtube videos. (His videos have been very helpful in diagnosing) and he mentioned that he only uses oem because of this trouble.

How have your seals been holding up since replacing with the bostech?
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  #50  
Old 10-19-2013, 11:46 PM
creator creator is offline
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Originally Posted by gmlcinc View Post
This one is an 05. Also have an 06 that we had to put three injectors in and it is starting harder now and we have been suspecting the replaced injectors..

But we had heard about the remans leaking from one of Ron Huxell's youtube videos. (His videos have been very helpful in diagnosing) and he mentioned that he only uses oem because of this trouble.

How have your seals been holding up since replacing with the bostech?
The last of my Bostech rings failed on this last trip with about 25,000mi on them.
I left the 4 in on the drivers side that hadn't failed yet just to see how long they would go. This turned out to be a bad idea because the top injector o-ring failed so bad that the beveled keeper washer shattered and I had to buy a brand new injector (I had already robbed the keeper washer out of the spare injector I ride with).

The harder durometer o-rings I've been using are holding up much better than the Bostech ones. The total miles on the first 4 is now over 35,000 and 15,000 on the 4 I just installed. I was getting hard starts around 15,000 on the Bostech rings. and the passenger side failed before 20k. I've sold over 30 sets now and they seem to be working well for everyone that has bought them. I re-ordered more so that people would have a source of more durable O-rings. My passenger side rings always fail first and I'm sure They would have failed by now if they were going to.

I'm also experimenting with some specialty O-rings for people with extreme performance tunes and heavy haulers like me. Too soon to give any verdict on them though.

I need to restate that most people will probably be fine with any O-rings, mine is an ideal O-ring test bed because I pull trailers for a living and I'm running a Blackwater engine with headgasket and piston ring issues that compound the abuse on the o-rings with heat and acidic, exhaust tainted oil.
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  #51  
Old 10-20-2013, 07:57 PM
gmlcinc gmlcinc is offline
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Ya i ordered some of your o-rings on ebay gonna install those. So you are saying those would hold up better than the ones supplied with the bostech cups right? Also what are you replacing the failed bostech seals on top of the injectors with? Thanks
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  #52  
Old 10-21-2013, 02:19 AM
creator creator is offline
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Originally Posted by gmlcinc View Post
Ya i ordered some of your o-rings on ebay gonna install those. So you are saying those would hold up better than the ones supplied with the bostech cups right? Also what are you replacing the failed bostech seals on top of the injectors with? Thanks
Yes. From my experience the harder rings will hold up to the heat and pressure longer.

The Bostech injector seal kit is a little cheaper and as far as I can tell the top injector seal they use is the same as the Alliant power top rings. The main difference between the 2 kits is the c-clip snap ring. The Bostech ones compress easier and are much easier to install and remove (easy removal is a big plus for me since I have had to do it multiple times on all 8 injectors). The alliant power snap rings are stronger and harder to install but they luckily cut a notch in the ends of the rings so that you can easily catch the end with a small screwdriver and work it out.

That being said I would proably just go with the Bostech injector seal kits for the price.
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  #53  
Old 10-25-2013, 11:01 PM
gmlcinc gmlcinc is offline
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Well we tried a new reman oem motorcraft injector from injectorsdirect.com and it still leaked when we did the air test. Also installed all the new o-rings you sent me for the nipple cups and used one of the new bostech nipple cups for that injector. So everything is new and it still leaks. I move the brand new injector over a cylinder and the leak moves with it. Also tried 3 different hold down bolts but no change. So were gonna put all the leaky sounding injectors on driver side (there's three) and put the cab back on and get it running and see what happens because at this point there is nothing else to replace or change.
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  #54  
Old 10-26-2013, 12:22 AM
creator creator is offline
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Originally Posted by gmlcinc View Post
Well we tried a new reman oem motorcraft injector from injectorsdirect.com and it still leaked when we did the air test. Also installed all the new o-rings you sent me for the nipple cups and used one of the new bostech nipple cups for that injector. So everything is new and it still leaks. I move the brand new injector over a cylinder and the leak moves with it. Also tried 3 different hold down bolts but no change. So were gonna put all the leaky sounding injectors on driver side (there's three) and put the cab back on and get it running and see what happens because at this point there is nothing else to replace or change.
Wow! The leak follows the brand new OEM injector when moved. I'm assuming you checked to make sure the top injector seal looks good and wasn't nicked or damaged?

What kind of leak are you getting? Have you primed the rail before testing? Can you feel the air coming out with your fingers near the top of that injector? A small amount of air can leak out before the first start and before the rail is purged of air. When the rail is primed for the first time and during the warm up of the first start, there is a bit of settling that happens between the top seal, the nipple moving to it's final resting angle, and it's seal with the nipple cup. Especially if the Ford torque sequence and specs aren't followed properly.

My reccomendation would be to re-install the injectors and follow the Ford torque sequence and torque values. Then prime it with the HPO pump. That 1000+psi will help seat all of the seals. If you still get a leak install enough parts to start with the valve covers off and do an initial start and let it warm up to 170║ then re test. I'll bet you won't get a leak after that.
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  #55  
Old 11-19-2013, 07:51 PM
gmlcinc gmlcinc is offline
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Sorry it's been a bit we've been really busy. But now we gotta get this truck going for snow. When we were doing the tests with shop air we would just install the injector and rail and then put air to it. We just wet the tops with some oil by hand. That's when we heard air, and the top seals were good. We did try dumping oil in the top if the injector then it would seal for a while until it pushed the oil out. But we thought there should be no air coming out on a good seal..

So now we to put the truck back together and ran it, all the same injectors, just resealed 4 times lol, and now it has a miss. But it didn't quit on the expressway like before so far.. So we decided to just replace the whole passenger bank with oem remans, think that's where the bad one is by checking with the thermal laser. (Autoenginuity on order)

Were quite certain all the trouble is in these injectors, so we are going to eventually replace all of them and cross our fingers. We think the problem may be in the spool valve because that part isn't replaced on a non oem motorcraft injector. We didn't realize the two holes in the top of the injector are for oil return from the spool valve so that's probably where the air we are hearing is coming from on the bad ones, not the top seal..
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  #56  
Old 11-23-2013, 08:58 PM
dbenson dbenson is offline
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Originally Posted by gmlcinc View Post
Sorry it's been a bit we've been really busy. But now we gotta get this truck going for snow. When we were doing the tests with shop air we would just install the injector and rail and then put air to it. We just wet the tops with some oil by hand. That's when we heard air, and the top seals were good. We did try dumping oil in the top if the injector then it would seal for a while until it pushed the oil out. But we thought there should be no air coming out on a good seal..

So now we to put the truck back together and ran it, all the same injectors, just resealed 4 times lol, and now it has a miss. But it didn't quit on the expressway like before so far.. So we decided to just replace the whole passenger bank with oem remans, think that's where the bad one is by checking with the thermal laser. (Autoenginuity on order)

Were quite certain all the trouble is in these injectors, so we are going to eventually replace all of them and cross our fingers. We think the problem may be in the spool valve because that part isn't replaced on a non oem motorcraft injector. We didn't realize the two holes in the top of the injector are for oil return from the spool valve so that's probably where the air we are hearing is coming from on the bad ones, not the top seal..
This sounds like exactly the same thing I've been going through...

I did a head gasket job on an 07 back in July which also included 8 new reman OEM injectors from Ford... it came back a couple weeks ago with a no hot start condition... I found the front injector on the drivers side leaking very badly with shop air... the leak would move with the injector, and putting a new top seal (Alliant) in the injector made no difference, so I put in a new injector (in the second cylinder on the drivers side, because I had moved them around for testing)... no leaks... but truck is back again one week later with the same hot start problems and the leak is on the front cylinder again at the top of the injector.

I have ordered a new ball cup and O-rings, I don't see any damage to the ball cup but maybe that's my problem???

It all sounds very similar to your problems gmlcinc... I'm very interested to hear how you make out with new injectors... I'll make sure I update with my experience here too.

Duane
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  #57  
Old 11-23-2013, 09:08 PM
creator creator is offline
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Originally Posted by dbenson View Post
This sounds like exactly the same thing I've been going through...

I did a head gasket job on an 07 back in July which also included 8 new reman OEM injectors from Ford... it came back a couple weeks ago with a no hot start condition... I found the front injector on the drivers side leaking very badly with shop air... the leak would move with the injector, and putting a new top seal (Alliant) in the injector made no difference, so I put in a new injector (in the second cylinder on the drivers side, because I had moved them around for testing)... no leaks... but truck is back again one week later with the same hot start problems and the leak is on the front cylinder again at the top of the injector.

I have ordered a new ball cup and O-rings, I don't see any damage to the ball cup but maybe that's my problem???

It all sounds very similar to your problems gmlcinc... I'm very interested to hear how you make out with new injectors... I'll make sure I update with my experience here too.

Duane
The fact that the leak follows the injector is weird.
Nipple cup seals are easy enough to replace that it is worth changing them. If they are bad enough it is possible that more than one is leaking but it just happens to show up at that injector/nipple.

RobbinThaHood Came up with a better tool design for those that are looking at buying a tool:
Tool for oil rail oring leak repair thanks to creator. - Page 9 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
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  #58  
Old 11-24-2013, 02:35 PM
gmlcinc gmlcinc is offline
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Well we did replace all four injectors on passenger side and so far so good. It took care of the miss and it runs good. We ran the truck about two hours away to grand rapids mi area and pulled around 10,000 lbs (a F350 crew cab flatbed) back home with no issues. Minus running the four ways the entire way back because we had no marker lights and it was dark LOL. And it wasn't the trailers fault they work, it's the truck, it isn't giving any power to the trailer for markers, but that's just something else to fix..

I'll keep this updated if we have any further trouble with it. But so far I think the plan is to eventually replace the other bank with the oem remans so we know they are good too, because I don't trust any thinig else at this point.
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  #59  
Old 11-24-2013, 02:38 PM
dbenson dbenson is offline
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Originally Posted by creator View Post
The fact that the leak follows the injector is weird.
Nipple cup seals are easy enough to replace that it is worth changing them. If they are bad enough it is possible that more than one is leaking but it just happens to show up at that injector/nipple.

RobbinThaHood Came up with a better tool design for those that are looking at buying a tool:
Tool for oil rail oring leak repair thanks to creator. - Page 9 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
Of course... I just bought another tool on eBay about 10 minutes earlier

Did a bit more work on this truck today... I tried cleaning up the nipple cup itself on the cylinder where the problem initially occurs, I used 280 grit sandpaper which isn't exactly "polishing", but I did remove some of the marks from the O-rings... these marks were not deep enough to catch a fingernail or even feel with a fingertip... but on reassembly it did seem to seal up with the shop air test. I had just put a new top injector o-ring in that same injector last night.

I will add however, that on my first test I didn't put all the bolts back in the oil rail... just a couple in the middle... I thought for a shop air test that would be sufficient, but maybe these things are very fussy with being completely bolted down and torqued, even for a quick shop air test.

Just passing on some results for everybody else to consider when troubleshooting... this is a particularly frustrating one to troubleshoot... hope this helps someone.

I should have my tool and O-rings next weekend... I will try cleaning up all the nipple cups when I install the new O-rings.. along with new top seals in the injectors, hopefully this thing will seal up completely.

I think someone mentioned earlier in this thread that everybody probably has some HP oil leaks, but they aren't even noticeable until they get bad enough to cause a no hot start condition. I work on a lot of 6.0's every week, and I have noticed some big differences in how quickly they all start, both hot and cold... probably due to these "un-noticed" HP oil leaks. I had a 6.0 excursion here last week that started instantly as soon as you touched the key... it was very noticeable how fast it started on a hot start... maybe perfecting the nipple cup seals is the way to make them all start this way!? I will provide my feedback here as it comes in.

Duane
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  #60  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:25 AM
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Bullitt390 Bullitt390 is offline
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Somewhat on topic...

Using this kit....

Click the image to open in full size.

Is the RED o-ring the interal o-ring on the intensifier body? The rest are self explanatory, but the Red has me puzzled unless it's for the internal oring.

Josh
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:25 AM
 
 
 
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