WVO in these old beasties?
#31
Haven't done it yet on any of my rigs, but with a worn IP being $100 or so and a set of injectors in the same range... If you can get two tanks of fuel out of it you've made your money. And I suspect that you can centrifuge & filter the stuff well enough for the fuel system to last a decent amount.
#32
Typical IP seizure failure story for Stanadyne DB-2 on WVO
#33
"Apparently, switching from cold diesel to hot veggie may possibly cause the IP drive shaft to thermally expand before the IP body can expand enough to smoothly accomodate the spinning shaft inside it. With the relatively close tolerances in an IP, any significant constriction of the mating surfaces between the IP shaft and IP body may reduce fuel flow beteen these surfaces to unnacceptably low rates. Since the fuel IS also the lube, it is believed by some that friction can build up and lead to seizure."
and
"I've worked, on and off, in several injection pump shops since the late 1960s - and Stanadyne/Roosamaster pumps have always been the most trouble-prone. They are very sensitive to thin fuels. You mentioned one failure in an arctic area. Stanadyne had many problems in cold areas - mostly because the fuel has to be thinned and therefore has less lube quality. Same problem exists in our military since the standard JP8 jet fuel is used in all diesels - including the thousands of CUCV trucks powered by GM 6.2s and 6.5s. The US Army has reported that right now, Stanadyne rotary pumps being used in Iraq have an average life of less then 1000 miles due to high heat and thin fuel. Stanadyne sells a thin-fuel "Arctic" kit for pumps used on 7.3s. It adds some specially hardened parts - but won't stop it from siezing."
and
"Currently, anyone running 2 tank svo through any rotary IP would be well advised to add at least 2-5% veggie to their diesel tank and add a FPHE so that BOTH fuels pass through it. That way, the IP is hot before the veggie ever hits it. Make sure you have a temp guage installed on the IP return so you know when she's hot. "
That being said, taking the worst case scenario (like some place on Antarctica at -80 deg F), then switching to the best possible transfer of coolant heat flow to the WVO (let's say 190 deg F), and assuming for some reason your IP didn't absorb ANY heat from the ambient temperature of the engine compartment or the engine it's bolted to, that would mean a temperature difference of 270 deg F on that IP shaft. Using basic Strength of Materials calculations, the size change of that shaft would amount to a ten thousandth of a inch longitudinally and even less laterally. That would not contribute to the binding of the shaft, nor its designed failure. You would have to have a temp difference of hundreds or even a thousand degrees to get a substantial change in size for a shaft like that. That's why all heat-fit components are warmed with a torch. If they could just pour some warm water on it (to save money), then they'd do that.
Like I said, the worst possible scenario (Antarctica, with a magical thermally-broken IP, and the best possible coolant heat transferred oil) can't produce the type of wear or conditions these guys are claiming.
and
"I've worked, on and off, in several injection pump shops since the late 1960s - and Stanadyne/Roosamaster pumps have always been the most trouble-prone. They are very sensitive to thin fuels. You mentioned one failure in an arctic area. Stanadyne had many problems in cold areas - mostly because the fuel has to be thinned and therefore has less lube quality. Same problem exists in our military since the standard JP8 jet fuel is used in all diesels - including the thousands of CUCV trucks powered by GM 6.2s and 6.5s. The US Army has reported that right now, Stanadyne rotary pumps being used in Iraq have an average life of less then 1000 miles due to high heat and thin fuel. Stanadyne sells a thin-fuel "Arctic" kit for pumps used on 7.3s. It adds some specially hardened parts - but won't stop it from siezing."
and
"Currently, anyone running 2 tank svo through any rotary IP would be well advised to add at least 2-5% veggie to their diesel tank and add a FPHE so that BOTH fuels pass through it. That way, the IP is hot before the veggie ever hits it. Make sure you have a temp guage installed on the IP return so you know when she's hot. "
That being said, taking the worst case scenario (like some place on Antarctica at -80 deg F), then switching to the best possible transfer of coolant heat flow to the WVO (let's say 190 deg F), and assuming for some reason your IP didn't absorb ANY heat from the ambient temperature of the engine compartment or the engine it's bolted to, that would mean a temperature difference of 270 deg F on that IP shaft. Using basic Strength of Materials calculations, the size change of that shaft would amount to a ten thousandth of a inch longitudinally and even less laterally. That would not contribute to the binding of the shaft, nor its designed failure. You would have to have a temp difference of hundreds or even a thousand degrees to get a substantial change in size for a shaft like that. That's why all heat-fit components are warmed with a torch. If they could just pour some warm water on it (to save money), then they'd do that.
Like I said, the worst possible scenario (Antarctica, with a magical thermally-broken IP, and the best possible coolant heat transferred oil) can't produce the type of wear or conditions these guys are claiming.
#34
Not to mention... My diesel is unheated. Even when it's cold out, after driving, the IP is quite hot, simply from the heat of the surrounding engine(as well as heat being conducted through the input shaft). So obviously, the flow through the pump is low enough that the (cold) input fuel isn't taking enough heat to matter. It does cool things some(see hot start/heat soak issues), but not a massive amount. Why would "cold" veggie oil be any different? Hot veggie oil would be similar in temp to the pump anyway, and should help...?
#35
Yep.
On a tangential note, I love the IDI forum. You can post pretty much anything you want (be it VO conversions, hi-perf mods, etc), and we do our best to promote the truth while being positive. It's a rare thing on the internet nowadays.
Conversely, I'm a member of the VW TDI forum. They'll blame a burnt taillight on a WVO kit. They make outlandish claims about how VO did this or did that. If you out yourself as a veg burner, they lambaste you till log off.
That being said, this IP shaft theory kind of falls into that camp. Not trying to dog on the guys who propose it, but it has that feel. The science doesn't seem to match up with the hypothesis. Nor does the material science. It's the kind of assertion I'd find on the VW forum. Thankfully, here on the IDI forum, we can propose these ideas and let the marketplace of ideas sort itself out, without negativity or bashing.
#37
I am a tdiclub.com member too, BioDiesel, and concur with the comments. I got banned. My TDI has 250,000 WVO miles.
Single tanks with 100% WVO starting at 0*C also have jelly consistency fuel. This was reported and a biopsy done on at least one BOSCH VW pump. The main shaft seized and snapped. It was theorized that the oil was too cold to flow which led to no lubrication and friction and then the shaft expanded until it fused with the case. I cant point you to the original posts in German, the site is not up anymore.
Here there were many reports of F-250 failure and seized shafts.
Remmeber that everyones system is slightly different, maybe not 100%.
and people rarely did autopsies on ip's.
But consider that if someone switched over to the veggy tank when the tank was at 130*F, and by the time it got to the IP, the IP might still be little above ambient, which could be 0*C. So the same thing could happen.
One guy , iirc, enlarged the fuel orifice to the shaft to correct this.
Anyone remember Dana Linscott of infopop? He would pull over to the side of the road and idle when he switched to veggy. I tried re-locate those old F-250 posts at infopop but they are now archived and aren't turning up easy.
iirc there was another theory that a 'slug of water' was 'lurking' at switchover. DB_2's are reported to fail on water ingestion.
In any case I think it only affected the cold temp trucks.
the DB-2 makes up for its frailty with its cheap replacement price.
And most conversions had more mundane problems, poor design, leaks, bad workmenship, etc. But the problem I mentioned could get even the best conversion.
If anyone wants to try, I'll be glad to help if i can.
Single tanks with 100% WVO starting at 0*C also have jelly consistency fuel. This was reported and a biopsy done on at least one BOSCH VW pump. The main shaft seized and snapped. It was theorized that the oil was too cold to flow which led to no lubrication and friction and then the shaft expanded until it fused with the case. I cant point you to the original posts in German, the site is not up anymore.
Here there were many reports of F-250 failure and seized shafts.
Remmeber that everyones system is slightly different, maybe not 100%.
and people rarely did autopsies on ip's.
But consider that if someone switched over to the veggy tank when the tank was at 130*F, and by the time it got to the IP, the IP might still be little above ambient, which could be 0*C. So the same thing could happen.
One guy , iirc, enlarged the fuel orifice to the shaft to correct this.
Anyone remember Dana Linscott of infopop? He would pull over to the side of the road and idle when he switched to veggy. I tried re-locate those old F-250 posts at infopop but they are now archived and aren't turning up easy.
iirc there was another theory that a 'slug of water' was 'lurking' at switchover. DB_2's are reported to fail on water ingestion.
In any case I think it only affected the cold temp trucks.
the DB-2 makes up for its frailty with its cheap replacement price.
And most conversions had more mundane problems, poor design, leaks, bad workmenship, etc. But the problem I mentioned could get even the best conversion.
If anyone wants to try, I'll be glad to help if i can.
#38
#39
I am a tdiclub.com member too, BioDiesel, and concur with the comments. I got banned. My TDI has 250,000 WVO miles.
I'm a closet greaser on the tdiforum. After seeing my WVO colleagues get banned, I know not to disturb the waters.
Single tanks with 100% WVO starting at 0*C also have jelly consistency fuel. This was reported and a biopsy done on at least one BOSCH VW pump. The main shaft seized and snapped. It was theorized that the oil was too cold to flow which led to no lubrication and friction and then the shaft expanded until it fused with the case. I cant point you to the original posts in German, the site is not up anymore.
Too bad about the post. I'd love to read it. I guess I didn't factor in the frictional component to my temperature calcs. But regardless, I don't know anyone who's using 32*F degree VO at the IP. That would definitely cause congealing and leave opportunities for gaps in the fuel.
Here there were many reports of F-250 failure and seized shafts.
Remmeber that everyones system is slightly different, maybe not 100%.
and people rarely did autopsies on ip's.
But consider that if someone switched over to the veggy tank when the tank was at 130*F, and by the time it got to the IP, the IP might still be little above ambient, which could be 0*C. So the same thing could happen.
I run heated fuel lines all the way up to the first selector valve. The only part that isn't heated is the 8 inches of metal fuel line to the IP, but I assumed the thermal mass of the VO combined with the ambient heat of the engine compartment would be enough for it to get to the IP.
One guy , iirc, enlarged the fuel orifice to the shaft to correct this.
Anyone remember Dana Linscott of infopop? He would pull over to the side of the road and idle when he switched to veggy. I tried re-locate those old F-250 posts at infopop but they are now archived and aren't turning up easy.
After numerous tested failures of Dana's theories and plans (a friend of mine built one of his kits, which ended in massive failures for us, and we had to begin our own DIY kits from the ground up.), I take most of his advice with a grain of salt. I remember I bought some faulty I-line heaters from him.... well, actually his son.... somethign like Key Renport.... and I finally washed my hands of him. He would badger Chris Goodwin all the time on the Frybrid forum, where I would generally hang out.
iirc there was another theory that a 'slug of water' was 'lurking' at switchover. DB_2's are reported to fail on water ingestion.
In any case I think it only affected the cold temp trucks.
Maybe that's the reason why I've never encountered it. I'm in LA, and most of my trips are in the summer.
the DB-2 makes up for its frailty with its cheap replacement price.
And most conversions had more mundane problems, poor design, leaks, bad workmenship, etc. But the problem I mentioned could get even the best conversion.
If anyone wants to try, I'll be glad to help if i can.
I'm a closet greaser on the tdiforum. After seeing my WVO colleagues get banned, I know not to disturb the waters.
Single tanks with 100% WVO starting at 0*C also have jelly consistency fuel. This was reported and a biopsy done on at least one BOSCH VW pump. The main shaft seized and snapped. It was theorized that the oil was too cold to flow which led to no lubrication and friction and then the shaft expanded until it fused with the case. I cant point you to the original posts in German, the site is not up anymore.
Too bad about the post. I'd love to read it. I guess I didn't factor in the frictional component to my temperature calcs. But regardless, I don't know anyone who's using 32*F degree VO at the IP. That would definitely cause congealing and leave opportunities for gaps in the fuel.
Here there were many reports of F-250 failure and seized shafts.
Remmeber that everyones system is slightly different, maybe not 100%.
and people rarely did autopsies on ip's.
But consider that if someone switched over to the veggy tank when the tank was at 130*F, and by the time it got to the IP, the IP might still be little above ambient, which could be 0*C. So the same thing could happen.
I run heated fuel lines all the way up to the first selector valve. The only part that isn't heated is the 8 inches of metal fuel line to the IP, but I assumed the thermal mass of the VO combined with the ambient heat of the engine compartment would be enough for it to get to the IP.
One guy , iirc, enlarged the fuel orifice to the shaft to correct this.
Anyone remember Dana Linscott of infopop? He would pull over to the side of the road and idle when he switched to veggy. I tried re-locate those old F-250 posts at infopop but they are now archived and aren't turning up easy.
After numerous tested failures of Dana's theories and plans (a friend of mine built one of his kits, which ended in massive failures for us, and we had to begin our own DIY kits from the ground up.), I take most of his advice with a grain of salt. I remember I bought some faulty I-line heaters from him.... well, actually his son.... somethign like Key Renport.... and I finally washed my hands of him. He would badger Chris Goodwin all the time on the Frybrid forum, where I would generally hang out.
iirc there was another theory that a 'slug of water' was 'lurking' at switchover. DB_2's are reported to fail on water ingestion.
In any case I think it only affected the cold temp trucks.
Maybe that's the reason why I've never encountered it. I'm in LA, and most of my trips are in the summer.
the DB-2 makes up for its frailty with its cheap replacement price.
And most conversions had more mundane problems, poor design, leaks, bad workmenship, etc. But the problem I mentioned could get even the best conversion.
If anyone wants to try, I'll be glad to help if i can.
Great information. If you find those posts, please link them to this thread.
#40
OT : Single tanks at 0*C in Germany
$8/gallon fuel in Germany provides power incentive to run $4 SVO or free 'fritter ol". It's what I do too, but I start blending diesel or kerosene , up to 50% if temps go to 0*F.
But those nuts, they run 100% rapeseed down to -5*C. And some have failures.
But they aren't devastated, they laugh about it, post pics, and put another pump on. with an $8/g savings, the cost is recovered quickly.
One guy Niels Anso, ran 100% veggy one year using exotic oils like sunflower or safflower oil with low gel points.
In my F-250, since I dont heat the tanks and use the stock diaphragm lift pump, I blend in 10-40% diesel with the veggy to keep it thin and avoid this problem.
I just remembered, we also suggested placing the temperature sensor at the OUTPUT of the ip, so you knew for certain the temperature of the fuel in the ip.
iirc Dana did experiments with an IR thermometer that showed the ip was warmed by the engine but also cooled by the ambient temp diesel fuel. after all, thats how we heat the ip too.
But those nuts, they run 100% rapeseed down to -5*C. And some have failures.
But they aren't devastated, they laugh about it, post pics, and put another pump on. with an $8/g savings, the cost is recovered quickly.
One guy Niels Anso, ran 100% veggy one year using exotic oils like sunflower or safflower oil with low gel points.
In my F-250, since I dont heat the tanks and use the stock diaphragm lift pump, I blend in 10-40% diesel with the veggy to keep it thin and avoid this problem.
I just remembered, we also suggested placing the temperature sensor at the OUTPUT of the ip, so you knew for certain the temperature of the fuel in the ip.
iirc Dana did experiments with an IR thermometer that showed the ip was warmed by the engine but also cooled by the ambient temp diesel fuel. after all, thats how we heat the ip too.
#41
Now that you mention it, I do remember Chris Goodwin also recommending that VW guys idle their engine for 60 seconds on cold diesel, because driving long highway distances on hot WVO with an immediate shut-off (assuming a very short purge, some guys tracked their purge cycle to <12 seconds) could cause IP damage. Kind of the reverse of what you are saying, but still a concern. I always idle my engine for 60 seconds after a long highway run, regardless if it's run on WVO or diesel beforehand.
#42
The ultra sensitive part of these pumps is the distributor area - not the pumping area. Something in-line pumps don't have. And since I've seen some that when worn and hot and will not start - and then DO start just by pouring some cool water on them - that slight change in temp can make a huge difference.
#43
The claim is, going from cold diesel to hot wvo will cause shaft expansion. The hot oil will congeal because the IP and IP lines are still cold from the diesel flowing through them. Since it is not flowing well, the shaft will not be lubricated and ultimately fail from friction.
The suggested solution is to heat the diesel prior to flipping over to hot wvo.
My "worst possible scenario" was just trying to explain that it's very unlikely.
The suggested solution is to heat the diesel prior to flipping over to hot wvo.
My "worst possible scenario" was just trying to explain that it's very unlikely.
#44
an IDI will run equally well on ATF (mineral oil) moter oil, used or virgin full synthetic or blend oil, most hydraulic oils except some that are low flammability types, rape seed oil, animal fats, the problems start when the temps cool below 55 degrees all fuels should be filtered to below 10 microns. diesel/oil blends greater than 50% is when some engines may smoke especially if injectors are worn have fun....
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