Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Performance, Engines & Troubleshooting > 335 Series- 5.8/351M, 6.6/400, 351 Cleveland
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2013, 06:41 AM
walkee's Avatar
walkee walkee is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 203
walkee is starting off with a positive reputation.
Ported vacuum switch

Since my engine build-up I still have some heat problems with hot weather and long idling or in traffic jam/slow moving traffic.

Engine is a 408 with 10.5:1 CR flat top pistons, 2V open chamber heads, headers, electric fan, recurved duraspark dizzy with 10 deg. ignition advance and a 180° F thermostat.

I´ve removed all the EGR stuff. Now my question is : can a ported vacuum switch (to be mounted near the water pump) help me cool down the temp by regulating the ignition advance with manifold vacuum during idling.

From what I know this ported vacuum switch belongs to the EGR stuff but can this switch work without EGR ? The only vacuum hoses I´m running is ported vacuum from carburator to distributor and one from manifold to the C6.

So when I put a ported vacuum switch in how do I have to route the vacuum hoses ? 1. from manifold to switch, 2. from carb to switch and 3. from switch to dizzy ?


Any input is appreciated, thank you Tom
__________________
Tom
1960 F100 /400/C6
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:24 AM
Beechkid Beechkid is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,150
Beechkid is a splendid one to beholdBeechkid is a splendid one to beholdBeechkid is a splendid one to beholdBeechkid is a splendid one to beholdBeechkid is a splendid one to beholdBeechkid is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkee View Post
Since my engine build-up I still have some heat problems with hot weather and long idling or in traffic jam/slow moving traffic.

Engine is a 408 with 10.5:1 CR flat top pistons, 2V open chamber heads, headers, electric fan, recurved duraspark dizzy with 10 deg. ignition advance and a 160 deg. thermostat.

I´ve removed all the EGR stuff. Now my question is : can a ported vacuum switch (to be mounted near the water pump) help me cool down the temp by regulating the ignition advance with manifold vacuum during idling.

From what I know this ported vacuum switch belongs to the EGR stuff but can this switch work without EGR ? The only vacuum hoses I´m running is ported vacuum from carburator to distributor and one from manifold to the C6.

So when I put a ported vacuum switch in how do I have to route the vacuum hoses ? 1. from manifold to switch, 2. from carb to switch and 3. from switch to dizzy ?


Any input is appreciated, thank you Tom
In theory yes, reality- there are a few supporting variables such as A/F mix, etc. IMHO, if you are getting hot at low speed that is typically 1) not enough air flowing, 2) inadequate heat exchange (ie radiator with not enough fins &/or tubes) or the coolant is passing too quickly or too slowly to allow for heat absorbsion & dispersion.

....some of IMHO's...............

E-Fans: Supposedly the curve blades are quieter but, in the aftermarket world 99% of the e-fans are junk in terms of design & quality IMHO. The OEM units flow anywhere from 50% to 200% more CFM than the "Hi Perf" aftermarket units, last for years in real world daily, all weather use and are quiet- and are less expensive in most cases!

I bought (last summer) a replacement assembly for my wife's 1997 Cougar Sport (V8) (the bearings in the e-motor were starting to whine).....the entire assembly including the shroud was $120 with tax (I bought the entire assembly because the motor itself was $80).

You will also hear/read about people having issues/concerns with their engines running warm/hot, once it is really verified and there are no mechanical issues, 99% it can be traced right to these HP Aftermarket fans.....those using oem units- I have never in 20 years heard of an issue related to them in any way in regards to cooling.

There are many on the market to choose from…..you can check out this thread which has a great listing of all sorts of great alternatives…..
Custom Electric Fan install - Taurus + Aluminum Shroud - Vintage Mustang Forums

Radiators: I know many seem to be under the impression (marketing) that aluminum construction by itself will enhance cooling, there is a little more to it than that...and in many instances buyers are actually comparing apples to oranges when comparing a copper core spec to an aluminum spec radiator. US Radiator has a nice vid on their site that yeah, it does talk about the company a bit, but also talks about Copper vs aluminum & gives a good presentation of design limitations.

Link: U.S. Radiator | The Difference Is In The Tooling

Hope this helps!
__________________
Member: Never trust a person over 40 who drives a Chevy club
Flatheads ain't so bad!
Certified backyard mechanic I & II
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2013, 12:38 PM
BuzzLOL BuzzLOL is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Posts: 380
BuzzLOL is starting off with a positive reputation.
.. X 2... problem is prolly fan related... fan blowing wrong direction, not close enough to the radiator, needs a shroud to ensure air is pulled or pushed through radiator, fan blades not angled enough/not moving enough air/fan motor too weak...

.. My first guess is usually no spring in lower radiator hose and/or no pressurization of cooling system, but that usually only causes overheating above 50 MPH...

.. Other possibility is bad heat sender/gauge... are you diagnosing overheating only by gauge or is it actually boiling over with 50/50 water/antifreeexe mix?

.. If flat top pistons and stock 2bbl. 76-79cc chamber heads, your actual compression ratio prolly about 9.5:1...

http://www.summitracing.com/popup/ca...ion-calculator
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:30 PM
walkee's Avatar
walkee walkee is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 203
walkee is starting off with a positive reputation.
Hey this is a lot of input, thanks for your IMHO´s and the links !

Guess I should give some additional info on the engine.
The engine just as the whole truck had a complete restauration and got hot tanked to clean all the cooling and oiling passages.
The radiator has been overhauled and the radiator block is new. Upper and lower radiator hoses are new. Water pump is new.

Well, there are a trans oil cooler and a engine oil cooler in front of the radiator, this may complicate the air flow.

The E-fan is a Flex-a-lite Black Magic Xtreme, thought it was the best choice in power and fit for my size of radiator. It has a big shroud that covers nearly the whole rad block, the blades rotate about half an inch from the fins. It blows in the right direction and - from my view - pulls a lot of air.

Gauges and senders are new stuff from VDO.

To list all these goodies does not ban them from misfunction ... but hey, it´s all new stuff. When there is something to supect for me it might be not enough air flow in spite of the new E-fan. I can go back to the belt-driven fan but I would like to keep my idea of this E-fan ....

But the basic question was the ported vacuum switch and it´s supposed help in reducing temperature by vary the timing advance - just for the technical solution.

And - the compression IS that high .... I bought this set of KB pistons from TMI and the advertised CR of 10.5 turned to be 10.66 in fact with 76cc heads and some milling on heads and block. Once fitted the pistons popped some thousandth over the deck, destroyed my calculation of a matching CR and gave me some serious problems with detonations.

Well anyway, thanks for your input and hoping for some more.
__________________
Tom
1960 F100 /400/C6
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2013, 05:21 PM
ctubutis's Avatar
ctubutis ctubutis is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver Metro Area, CO
Posts: 15,290
ctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputation
ctubutis ctubutis ctubutis
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkee View Post
...can a ported vacuum switch (to be mounted near the water pump) help me cool down the temp by regulating the ignition advance with manifold vacuum during idling.
The factory setup - at least in the early 80s - did just that.

I forget the specifics of exactly how it's done, but it used at least two such temperature-actuated switches to feed manifold vacuum to the advance when the engine was getting too warm at idle.
__________________
About the bra
Microsoft is writing software for the kind of people who'd type google into the google search bar to get to google.
http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl...7&cid=47003415
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:59 PM
crsmiffy crsmiffy is offline
Elder User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Tanilba bay NSW Australia
Posts: 791
crsmiffy is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
What temp does your fan kick in/out? How much fan is sticking out from the shroud? Sucker fan should have 2/3 toward rad and 1/3 toward engine.
Do you have an auxiliary header tank for the radiator?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2013, 07:21 AM
walkee's Avatar
walkee walkee is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 203
walkee is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
The factory setup - at least in the early 80s - did just that.
That´s right Chris, but will the switch do the intended work without the EGR stuff ?
__________________
Tom
1960 F100 /400/C6
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:56 AM
BuzzLOL BuzzLOL is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Posts: 380
BuzzLOL is starting off with a positive reputation.
.. The only ported vacuum I've ever heard of is a ported vacuum outlet on the carb. to block vacuum to the distributor vacuum advance when idling and allow that vacuum at part throttle cruising for better MPG...

.. Some vehicles also have a vacuum valve on the engine water outlet that in extreme cold winter weather/cold engine supplies vacuum to an air door vacuum motor in the inlet of the air cleaner to pull warm air off the exhaust manifold stove to prevent freezing up the condensation in the carburetor/freezing the carburetor(which is no fun)... you don't want that hot air going into the carb. most of the time...

.. There is also the EGR (ExhaustGasRecirculation) system anti-pollution control system that opens a valve that is usually in the intake manifold to allow hot exhaust air in the intake manifold to enter the engine at times...

.. Having positive deck pistons shouldn't be causing you detonation, should actually be lessening it... assuming you have head gasket that provides .030" - .040" quench distance, max ignition advance of 34-38 degrees, and gas of sufficient octane... like 91-94 octane pump gas plus an ounce or two of kerosene per tankful...
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2013, 04:40 PM
walkee's Avatar
walkee walkee is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 203
walkee is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
.. The only ported vacuum I've ever heard of is a ported vacuum outlet on the carb. to block vacuum to the distributor vacuum advance when idling and allow that vacuum at part throttle cruising for better MPG...
@ BuzzLOL : I´m thinking of this : Standard Motor Ported Vacuum Switches PVS14 - SummitRacing.com
__________________
Tom
1960 F100 /400/C6
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2013, 04:56 PM
walkee's Avatar
walkee walkee is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 203
walkee is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
What temp does your fan kick in/out? How much fan is sticking out from the shroud? Sucker fan should have 2/3 toward rad and 1/3 toward engine.
Do you have an auxiliary header tank for the radiator?
@ crsmiffy : fan kicks in at 88° C ( 190° F ) and there is no auxiliary radiator tank. The fan is sticking out approx. 1/2 inch and the proportions are around 2/3 to rad and 1/3 to engine. The pic below may help.



Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
Tom
1960 F100 /400/C6
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2013, 08:01 PM
wyoming4x4's Avatar
wyoming4x4 wyoming4x4 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: wyoming
Posts: 1,777
wyoming4x4 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
electric fan?

what are the CFM's of the fans output. 3000cfm or 5000cfm or 1000cfm? got me thinking! On your distributor have you checked for rotor to distrib cap contact alignment. If not close to proper alignment this could promote a cross fire within cap. is the distributor cap vented? needs to be if not. I run a MSD with phaseable rotor and check these things and correct if off a little. have to adjust every time you adjust your timing for optimum results.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:17 PM
ctubutis's Avatar
ctubutis ctubutis is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver Metro Area, CO
Posts: 15,290
ctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputationctubutis has a superb reputation
ctubutis ctubutis ctubutis
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkee View Post
But the basic question was the ported vacuum switch and it´s supposed help in reducing temperature by vary the timing advance - just for the technical solution.
What the factory configuration did was apply manifold vacuum to the distributor advance during overly-hot idle, this raises the idle speed and thereby increases the fan speed and coolant throughput.

This won't help you with an electric fan although I guess you could try it... get a 3-port vacuum switch that opens at a high temperature... this type switch would have connections for two vacuum sources and one connection for the device receiving the flip-flopped vacuum supply. It'd raise your idle speed and coolant flow but I think you'd be applying a Band-AidŽ on a symptom instead of treating the cause of the problem which is most likely someplace else.

What I see people do with the Windsor engines sometimes is use the wrong water pump - one intended for a serpentine belt setup, it spins the other direction and the impeller inside is changed to accommodate that. If that impeller is spinning backwards, coolant flow isn't so good. But I doubt that's your problem on an M-block, I don't think they ever came with serp-belt setups.

I agree with checking the basics... remove the cap, start the engine and let it warm up 'til the thermostat opens. Look inside the radiator and you should see a healthy flow of coolant.

Also, the cap might not be holding pressure.

That radiator looks smaller than I'd expect to see but I doubt it's the cause of your problem. I'm assuming you verified the existence of a problem and aren't relying on factory gauges....
__________________
About the bra
Microsoft is writing software for the kind of people who'd type google into the google search bar to get to google.
http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl...7&cid=47003415
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:17 AM
wyoming4x4's Avatar
wyoming4x4 wyoming4x4 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: wyoming
Posts: 1,777
wyoming4x4 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
small cap distributor!

something i see is a small cap distrib and have to be a little more careful on cross fire within cap. make sure your cap is vented to releas gases within distrib while running. If cross fire present within cap and no vent causes to fire cylinder before or after actual cyl firing. I now have a spare cap with hole next to contact and see actual firing position with a timing light. Any questions drop a message.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:40 AM
walkee's Avatar
walkee walkee is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 203
walkee is starting off with a positive reputation.
@ Wyoming :

fan has 3300 CFM output. Interesting info on the vented dizzy cap .... never heard of this. What are the benefits of one or two extra holes in the cap ?
Prevent from gases or moisture ? Guess the cap does not seal to the dizzy base that much and should allow some air to flow.

But what is the relationship to higher engine temps at idle, please ?
__________________
Tom
1960 F100 /400/C6
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 07:27 AM
walkee's Avatar
walkee walkee is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 203
walkee is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
What the factory configuration did was apply manifold vacuum to the distributor advance during overly-hot idle, this raises the idle speed and thereby increases the fan speed and coolant throughput.

This won't help you with an electric fan although I guess you could try it... get a 3-port vacuum switch that opens at a high temperature... this type switch would have connections for two vacuum sources and one connection for the device receiving the flip-flopped vacuum supply. It'd raise your idle speed and coolant flow but I think you'd be applying a Band-AidŽ on a symptom instead of treating the cause of the problem which is most likely someplace else.
Well you´re right a E-fan won´t help me when I use a vacuum switch, I did not know it works by raising the idle speed. The more I think about it I feel it´s the wrong way.

Guess the E-fan doesn´t pull enough air. On a really hot day in a traffic jam the temp slowly raises from 82° C up, at 88° C the fan kicks in but it fails to reduce the temp, just holds around 90° C and raises more and more under some conditions.

The cooling system is OK, as I said before hot tanked block, new radiator block, new water pump, a correct 180° F robertshaw thermostat, new VDO gauges ..... opening the rad cap shows a good flow of fluid.

I suspect the engine build-up with a big improvement of power from 150 to 360 HP has changed the whole arrangement. Maybe I´m going back to the old belted-driven fan and wait for hot weather.

Thanks a lot for this input !
__________________
Tom
1960 F100 /400/C6
Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 07:27 AM
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Performance, Engines & Troubleshooting > 335 Series- 5.8/351M, 6.6/400, 351 Cleveland

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.5.2 ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup