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  #1  
Old 03-02-2013, 10:34 PM
John Barrett John Barrett is offline
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2001 5.4L w/4R70W trany wont engage any gear

The problem started with a front seal leak a few months ago which I had no choice but to continue driving with because of low funds. I don't drive much so a couple of quarts of ATF was usually enough to get me out and about for what little driving I had to do. I know.. a front seal is cheap, but I'm partially disabled and unable to work on anything that is not under the hood.

I finally scraped up enough money to hire a friend to replace the seal, but he had a life crisis before completing the work, so I had to get another friend (I believe he is on these forums as Braxton if any of you know him) to reinstall the trany... still had the leak, but I could get around by adding ATF as before.

So we tried again... dropped everything and put another new seal on. This stopped the leak, but we got some grinding/squealing noises and could not get the trany to engage any gear.

From reading forum posts and other sources, we decided to replace the TC which we just completed this evening. We got some more of the grinding / squealing noise like before, except that it only occurred the first time we tried cranking the engine, the 2nd time we got no noises, but again no gears engaging.

We desperately need some guidance on what to check/replace next assuming there is something we can look at other than a total trany rebuild or replacement. I personally find it hard to believe we could have gone from a tolerably functional trany to scrap metal just replacing a seal and the TC. Its gotta be something simple we overlooked !!

Braxton and I will be keeping an eye on this thread to answer any questions. Thanks
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  #2  
Old 03-03-2013, 12:53 AM
Bluegrass 7 Bluegrass 7 is online now
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Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.
Taking the front pump cover off has to preserve the input shaft assembly engagement to the pump.
The torque converter has to set in a certain way to engage for front pump operation.
If the front pump cannot be turned by the TC, there will be no fluid pressure to operate the servos, clutches and band, therefore no engagment of gears.
Sorry but it has to come out again, checked for damage (the noise etc), repaired and put back togather by some one who knows what they are doing.
I don't mean to be harsh but it's reality you need to hear. That's why you ended up here with the problem.
An owner did this in Europe by trying to put a motor in place with the converter hanging on the flywheel with the same results, thinking he could just line things up and be good to go.
Can't do it that way.
BTW this is the danger in letting a friend do involved work unless you know he can do it correctly.
The risk of failure is to great for both parties.
The total cost in the end, is to high on everyone involved.
Best of luck to you.
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  #3  
Old 03-03-2013, 10:46 AM
John Barrett John Barrett is offline
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I don't believe the front pump cover was ever removed. Also.. then engine was never moved.. just the trany.

can you explain how the TC is aligned to the pump ?? from what I saw when everything was pulled out, there didn't seem to be anything that looked like a key or whatever... just the splines. Assuming for the moment that the problem is between the TC and the pump, what was likely to be damaged.

And how much trouble are we looking at if we attempt to replace the front pump ?? I did some quick looking around and they didn't seem to be too expensive.. $50-$100 range ?? and since we already got the squealing noise, is it possible we trashed the new TC when we did this ??

I'm not all that adverse to the learning experience here.. I've still spent a lot less than a trany shop would have hit me up for on a rebuild. Just need an idea what to look at next and how to avoid goofing things up the next time we put it together.
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  #4  
Old 03-03-2013, 04:55 PM
Bluegrass 7 Bluegrass 7 is online now
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Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.Bluegrass 7 has a good reputation on FTE.
To replace a transmssion front seals, the front pump cover has to be removed.
There are actually three seals. One large round neoprene at close to 6 inches in diameter and a flat smaller gasket and the TC hub seal.
If you look at the trans side of a TC, the hub should have cutouts to engage the pump and splines.
Inside is another alignment that hase to be kept during assembly.
Normaly special slid hammers with metric threads are needed to pull the front pump cover off once the bolts have been removed.
I have no idea how far this went or how it was done but something was not done correctly.
Good luck.
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  #5  
Old 03-03-2013, 09:40 PM
John Barrett John Barrett is offline
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OK -- the only thing replaced was the TC hub seal.. nothing else was touched so none of the internal alignments should have been disturbed unless disengaging the trany from the TC can disturb them.

So if I'm reading you right there were just the 2 things, the cutout for the pump engagement and the splines that had to mesh up, and if I'm looking at the pictures right, there is no way the trany would have seated for bolting unless those 2 items were aligned right. When installing a new TC.. whats the procedure for making sure everything is gonna line up when it goes back together ??

OK .. given the above, what could have made the noise when the engine was cranked the 1st time.. TC is one obvious possibility, the cutouts if we did somehow manage to get the trany on without those properly aligned... what else ??
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  #6  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:28 PM
Bluegrass 7 Bluegrass 7 is online now
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Well at this point it dosn't make much difference.
It has to come apart again and look at the situation.
A hint that things arn't right is when the trans is moved up against the motor.
If it does not go togather 'without forcing' or 'has to be drawing togather' with the bell housing bolts, then there is an issue.
The converter is bolted to the flywheel and the hub just sets in place in the pump without any assembly pressure against it.
The clearence is very close and set by machining demensions.
Matter of fact should the converter balloon from to much torque, it grows in the transmission direction killing the pump bearings behind it as well as putting pressure on the flywhel and the crank main thrust bearing in the motor.
This is an example of how critical things are.
There is no room for error.
I can't help you any further except to explain it.
Look at the flywheel ring gear area. There may be signs the starter gear is causing some of the noise should the flywheel be pushed forward from the TC not seating.
Good luck with it.
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  #7  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:32 PM
Torky2 Torky2 is offline
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Torky2 has a good reputation on FTE.Torky2 has a good reputation on FTE.
The seal you replaced is called the pump inner seal. It is the one that most often leaks over time on automatic transmissions.

All planetary automatic transmissions have an oil pump driven by the shell of the torque converter. So the pump is turning whenever the engine is running.

The torque converter has two nubs that engage two flats spaced 180 degrees apart on the inner hole of the pump's inner gerotor. As the inner gerotor is spun, it spins the outer gerotor, and the reducing volume between them rotating in the pump body provides the pumping action (gerotor pump).

The torque converter must always be inserted caerfully and rotated back and forth while pressing in to properly seat the TC into the inner gerotor, and to seat the TC guts onto the trans input shaft. The best way to do this is to practice doing it with the trans out of the vehicle, and also doing it on the old one, and measuring how far back behind the case rim the front surface of the TC is.

A number one screw-up is not properly seating the TC, or properly seating it, and not using a box-end wrench bolted through a case hole to keep the TC seated while manipulating the trans around up to the block. The wrench and bolt gets pulled out at the very last moment, then no jiggling around that would shake the TC forward.

Bolting it up without proper engagement results in no-drive, and often a broken pump inner gerotor. Requires inspection to determine if it is cracked and broken. If so, then the pump body has to be removed from the case, taken apart, broken bits cleaned out, new parts and gaskets and seals installed for all parts removed.

Edit: Bluegrass posted while I was typing. Yup, the last moves of mating trans and engine are critical. And if the TC was not seated completely, it ain't gonna work.
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'94 Bronco XLT 5.8L E4OD Tow Pkg., Quad front shocks.
'97 F-150 Lariat SuperCab LongBed 4.6L 4R70W Tow Pkg.
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  #8  
Old 03-04-2013, 02:47 AM
refeyggn refeyggn is offline
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That's why you ended up here with the problem.Click the image to open in full size.
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  #9  
Old 03-04-2013, 05:48 AM
John Barrett John Barrett is offline
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I'm continuing to ask questions so when we do go to take it apart and fix the problem, we know what to do right this time TY to Bluegrass and Torky2 for the more in depth explanation of where the problems can be and how to do it right next time and no thanks to refeyggn for the troll commentary this late in the discussion

So right now the probably worst case is a blown pump that will need to be replaced along with all related seals, and possibly a new TC if nubs/flats/whatever that engage the pump were damaged (which would suck cause this is a brand new TC just put on !! but that is how it goes some times)

Any recommendations on where I could get a new pump and seals at a reasonable price by Friday would be much appreciated... going to assume that is the problem for now since I cannot drop the trany to look until the weekend.
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  #10  
Old 03-04-2013, 11:30 PM
Torky2 Torky2 is offline
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Torky2 has a good reputation on FTE.Torky2 has a good reputation on FTE.
Around here, we have a lot of O'Reilly auto parts stores. They have a regional warehouse in the area, with twice-daily deliveries to the stores, so I can get any part that they have in their warehouse the same day, if I order it early enough. They have the pump seal that you replaced, the pump O-ring that goes around the periphery of the pump plate (between periphery of pump plate and the inside of the trans main case), and the pump gasket that is behind the pump plate, between it and the case. And torque converter.

So if you have similar stores in your area, should be able to get that. The pump gerotors ("gears") will be harder to get quick. Bulkparts.com an online-only place I have used shows them as $20 for the set for that vintage of 4R70W. Due to the short time, you might try your Ford dealer's parts counter. If they are in a local warehouse they should be able to get them in time. Don't have any idea about the cost from them.

When putting the pump plate assembly back in, I strongly suggest making some proper-sized metric alignment pins out of threaded rod or long bolts with the heads cut off. Thread at least 4 of them into the pump mounting holes in the case, spaced around the circle.
Then hang the pump gasket over them and slide gasket to case.
Lube the big O-ring liberally with ATF, put O-ring around the pump plate periphery, then use the alignment pins to guide and slide the pump back into the case. Will have to press hard, probably tap carefully with a mallet. Want pump to go back pretty evenly as it seats. You are fighting the O-ring, compressing it to seat the pump. Once you get it seated, or close to it, you can put some of the pump-to-case bolts in the open holes, and replace the alignment pins with bolts one by one.

About torque converters - if you want to see the drivenubs/flats of the TC, look up your truck at rockauto.com, look at the auto trans parts, can see both sides of the TC, can see one of the flats in the pic.
Other advice - Any paint on the TC front pilot should be removed, and the pilot lightly greased, the mating depression on the end of the crankshaft too. It is important that the pilot slides nice and square into the crank, otherwise the TC can have a slight wobble even though it gets bolted securely to the flex plate.
A clean pilot is a happy pilot
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'94 Bronco XLT 5.8L E4OD Tow Pkg., Quad front shocks.
'97 F-150 Lariat SuperCab LongBed 4.6L 4R70W Tow Pkg.
2010 Escape XLT 2.5L, 6-speed Auto, FWD.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:30 PM
 
 
 
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