Stage 1s or Stock Injectors?
#46
10-10-2012, 05:16 PM
Things to consider:
No matter what, Singles are going to give you more power and cooler EGTs because you can get more fuel in sooner. Hot tunes on the AC 160/stock will extend the pulsewidth and bring the EGTs back up a bit, but they will be fun. Bigger nozzles are good, but too big makes the tuning more challenging because you have to balance power/driveability, and clean-burning - and there is such a thing as too narrow of a pulsewidth. Bigger nozzles also reduce atomization, so you need more ICP to compensate (louder). Some might jump in to say "I have 500 horsepower and pass California emissions" and I 'm not saying it can't be done, but it's more challenging to get the feel, sound, and smell of the truck just the way you like it with big nozzles and without live tuning. Trying this without the F6 or FU can get very cumbersome. I'm not saying avoid the big jets, I'm saying get more input from those with fire hoses. Stage 1s are a fantastic balance of everything good - it's already selected for the T444E HO. Stage 2s and bigger can be better for some - and worse for others. Stage 1.5s? I have no clue.
No matter what, I emphasise asking those who have a setup similar to what you're shopping for... preferably those who share your goals.
No matter what, Singles are going to give you more power and cooler EGTs because you can get more fuel in sooner. Hot tunes on the AC 160/stock will extend the pulsewidth and bring the EGTs back up a bit, but they will be fun. Bigger nozzles are good, but too big makes the tuning more challenging because you have to balance power/driveability, and clean-burning - and there is such a thing as too narrow of a pulsewidth. Bigger nozzles also reduce atomization, so you need more ICP to compensate (louder). Some might jump in to say "I have 500 horsepower and pass California emissions" and I 'm not saying it can't be done, but it's more challenging to get the feel, sound, and smell of the truck just the way you like it with big nozzles and without live tuning. Trying this without the F6 or FU can get very cumbersome. I'm not saying avoid the big jets, I'm saying get more input from those with fire hoses. Stage 1s are a fantastic balance of everything good - it's already selected for the T444E HO. Stage 2s and bigger can be better for some - and worse for others. Stage 1.5s? I have no clue.
No matter what, I emphasise asking those who have a setup similar to what you're shopping for... preferably those who share your goals.
#47
10-10-2012, 05:19 PM
#48
10-10-2012, 06:13 PM
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#50
10-10-2012, 06:59 PM
I have driven a truck with 250/200's and GTX4294 and in 'stock' tune (prolly close to 400HP 
) it ran like a stock truck with a hot tune. Just driving around like a normal person - you would never know this CC 4wd could run mid-12's in the 1/4mi. 
There was NO hazing at idle (in warm weather anyway) and the only smoke was from stomping on the loud pedal - although you could break traction by rolling into the throttle and never see ANY smoke. In fact, in all but the highest HP tunes this truck would only smoke for a second even when snapping the accelerator pedal. 
Same truck could also pull 18k lb trailer with less-than-stock EGT's. It ruined me... 
I want my trucks to run like THAT!
) it ran like a stock truck with a hot tune. Just driving around like a normal person - you would never know this CC 4wd could run mid-12's in the 1/4mi. There was NO hazing at idle (in warm weather anyway) and the only smoke was from stomping on the loud pedal - although you could break traction by rolling into the throttle and never see ANY smoke. In fact, in all but the highest HP tunes this truck would only smoke for a second even when snapping the accelerator pedal. Same truck could also pull 18k lb trailer with less-than-stock EGT's. It ruined me... I want my trucks to run like THAT!
#51
10-10-2012, 10:21 PM
Things to consider:
it's more challenging to get the feel, sound, and smell of the truck just the way you like it with big nozzles and without live tuning. Trying this without the F6 or FU can get very cumbersome. I'm not saying avoid the big jets, I'm saying get more input from those with fire hoses. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
it's more challenging to get the feel, sound, and smell of the truck just the way you like it with big nozzles and without live tuning. Trying this without the F6 or FU can get very cumbersome. I'm not saying avoid the big jets, I'm saying get more input from those with fire hoses. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
) Further comments reserved......
#52
10-10-2012, 10:25 PM
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#53
10-10-2012, 10:27 PM
#54
10-10-2012, 11:05 PM
The truck I mentioned earlier had tunes by Gearhead and they worked REALLY well on first try. 'Live Tuning' without a dyno is like sex without a partner. (but waaay more expensive)
Hell no, did I really say that??!!
#55
10-23-2012, 06:21 PM
Measured my armature clearance yesterday on the driver's side bank. What clearance? I couldn't get a 0.0015" feeler gauge in there. I'd say I got my money's worth out of my original injectors. I ordered stock rebuilt injectors from Full Force Diesel through DP Tuner.
I decided on stock because:
1) I'm pretty comfortable without an EGT gauge in my current form (I know, I know), so that's one thing else I don't have to buy,
2) With my original, 303,000 mile tranny, I don't want to tax it any more with Stage 1s since honestly I'm content with my power now. It's plenty when empty and enough when towing. I could play harder with more power but I already have far more acceleration capabilities than braking.
3) I feel more comfortable with stocks when it comes to problem diagnosis, breaking down on the road, and long term repairs. If I break down 500 miles from home, I can pick up a stock injector from a dealer or parts store nearby and do a roadside swap (albeit not fun). With Stage 1s it's a little more complicated. And heaven forbid if my source for my Stage 1 injectors ever goes out of business and one injector fails, where do I get one identical injector?
Anyway, they should be in by Friday. Wish me luck on the install. I'm not looking forward to it. Especially the passenger side.
I decided on stock because:
1) I'm pretty comfortable without an EGT gauge in my current form (I know, I know), so that's one thing else I don't have to buy,
2) With my original, 303,000 mile tranny, I don't want to tax it any more with Stage 1s since honestly I'm content with my power now. It's plenty when empty and enough when towing. I could play harder with more power but I already have far more acceleration capabilities than braking.
3) I feel more comfortable with stocks when it comes to problem diagnosis, breaking down on the road, and long term repairs. If I break down 500 miles from home, I can pick up a stock injector from a dealer or parts store nearby and do a roadside swap (albeit not fun). With Stage 1s it's a little more complicated. And heaven forbid if my source for my Stage 1 injectors ever goes out of business and one injector fails, where do I get one identical injector?
Anyway, they should be in by Friday. Wish me luck on the install. I'm not looking forward to it. Especially the passenger side.
#56
10-24-2012, 01:50 AM
Not trying to criticize your decision, but some thoughts for others considering this.
-You are playing Russian Roulette with those toons and no pyro - ESPECIALLY with split-shots...
-There is no more power to hurt the trans - if you don't put it on the chip
-A 160cc injector with stock nozzle is available new at any Ford/Int'l dealer (AC-code injector). No worries, there will be folks rebuilding these in the aftermarket for many years to come.
The install is not as intimidating as it may seem. Once ya get the intake and CAC tubes off, its all pretty accessible. The bolts on VC's near firewall can be a PITA, but using a 1/4 drive socket, swivel and extension will make it easier. I use a mighty-vac with a piece of brake line stuck in it to suck the oil out of the cylinders and then spin engine over by hand after installing injectors. I don't like the directions that suggest spinning the engine over with starter - besides making a mess, you risk adding fuel/oil back into the cylinders... It doesn't hurt to read the install instructions from a few places for some good ideas.
Also, get yourself some PADDING to lay across the front of the engine bay. I use a 3" thick retired/re-purposed pad from some lawn furniture that goes from grill to HPOP rez and fender-to-fender. Best thing EVER!!!
-You are playing Russian Roulette with those toons and no pyro - ESPECIALLY with split-shots...
-There is no more power to hurt the trans - if you don't put it on the chip
-A 160cc injector with stock nozzle is available new at any Ford/Int'l dealer (AC-code injector). No worries, there will be folks rebuilding these in the aftermarket for many years to come.
The install is not as intimidating as it may seem. Once ya get the intake and CAC tubes off, its all pretty accessible. The bolts on VC's near firewall can be a PITA, but using a 1/4 drive socket, swivel and extension will make it easier. I use a mighty-vac with a piece of brake line stuck in it to suck the oil out of the cylinders and then spin engine over by hand after installing injectors. I don't like the directions that suggest spinning the engine over with starter - besides making a mess, you risk adding fuel/oil back into the cylinders... It doesn't hurt to read the install instructions from a few places for some good ideas.
Also, get yourself some PADDING to lay across the front of the engine bay. I use a 3" thick retired/re-purposed pad from some lawn furniture that goes from grill to HPOP rez and fender-to-fender.
Best thing EVER!!!
#57
10-24-2012, 11:49 AM
No offense taken. You have good points. My other point I left off is that I don't want to modify the drivetrain of my Excursion much more, especially internally. Every other vehicle I have had I have modified fairly extensively. Sometimes mods increase reliability, sometimes they decrease reliability, but they almost always add complexity. I am only really comfortable with me working on my modified vehicles. If I can't work on my Ex someday for some reason and a mechanic works on it, there will have to be a number of phone calls to explain (this is why this looks different...don't do this...this is rigged this way...bla bla bla). I've done it in the past with my other vehicles. I'm trying to keep the Ex to a few simpler mods and keep my PMS to other vehicles.
I also don't want to spend the little extra on the Stage 1s, get an EGT gauge, boost gauge, etc., then detune the chip and not fully utilize the better injectors. I don't want to detune OR rely on me being easy on it. I can be easy on it, but I can't speak for my wife, or my friend that might need to borrow it.
I also don't want to spend the little extra on the Stage 1s, get an EGT gauge, boost gauge, etc., then detune the chip and not fully utilize the better injectors. I don't want to detune OR rely on me being easy on it. I can be easy on it, but I can't speak for my wife, or my friend that might need to borrow it.
#58
10-30-2012, 11:15 PM
Update: Friday I put my new stock rebuilt injectors in. Took approximately 10.5 hours due to some issues with the dipstick flange being seized to the valve cover bolt as well as farting around with a pry bar that was bigger than ideal before finding a 12" or so pry bar I was not aware we had. I have since driven the truck roughly 150 miles since then and so far so good. No slightly rough idle when hot. No codes yet....still crossing my fingers. Let's hope things stay this way.
BTW-I'm just now going to spread some reps around to those of you that have helped out. Thanks everyone for the opinions/information/suggestions.
BTW-I'm just now going to spread some reps around to those of you that have helped out. Thanks everyone for the opinions/information/suggestions.
#60
10-31-2012, 07:22 AM
Somewhat. Honestly the only symptom my old injectors had was a rough idle when hot, and it wasn't terrible. The truck ran great otherwise, it just threw the cylinder 8 misfire (P0308) code when heat soaked and it began idling. Jody told me the code was probably a result of the sudden change in oil pressure upon decel. Apparently if an injector spits out a large amount of unused oil quickly it can be seen as a misfire. With the chip in the injector is getting higher oil pressure cruising down the road than without. Hence why I would not get the code without the chip. The rougher hot idle was still there though.
I would say I'm having less of an "AHA!" moment and moreso being put at ease that my injectors could bite the dust at any moment or cause further damage (I think my low armature clearance is what wiped out my driver's side injector harness and IDM a month or so ago).
I would say I'm having less of an "AHA!" moment and moreso being put at ease that my injectors could bite the dust at any moment or cause further damage (I think my low armature clearance is what wiped out my driver's side injector harness and IDM a month or so ago).