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  #16  
Old 10-05-2012, 05:04 AM
Philip Sanders Philip Sanders is offline
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SKYSKI JASON. This is all extremely interesting for me. How long have you been using VO in your vehicles? How many miles have you put on them and what type vehicle do you have?

Im looking to get a 7.3l F250.

Has ANYONE, experimented with true bio-diesel ? Basically it is changing the molecular structure. VO is try-glycerides (3 fatty acids) held together by glycerine. You had lye which breaks off the glycerine, and it settles in the bottom. then you add methenol which bonds the try-glycerides back together. Then you dump the fat out of the tank (glycerine). In this way the fuel does not gel when it gets cold and there is no need for a conversion kit to the heat the fuel before it enters the engine. Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever

This is ONLY what I have READ. I have NO experience. which is why I'm very interested to see your opinion on the above. Also any comments on what is tried and true, and what is not. Im learning from your experience.
Thank You !!
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Philip Sanders View Post
SKYSKI JASON. This is all extremely interesting for me. How long have you been using VO in your vehicles? How many miles have you put on them and what type vehicle do you have?

Im looking to get a 7.3l F250.

Has ANYONE, experimented with true bio-diesel ? Basically it is changing the molecular structure. VO is try-glycerides (3 fatty acids) held together by glycerine. You had lye which breaks off the glycerine, and it settles in the bottom. then you add methenol which bonds the try-glycerides back together. Then you dump the fat out of the tank (glycerine). In this way the fuel does not gel when it gets cold and there is no need for a conversion kit to the heat the fuel before it enters the engine. Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever

This is ONLY what I have READ. I have NO experience. which is why I'm very interested to see your opinion on the above. Also any comments on what is tried and true, and what is not. Im learning from your experience.
Thank You !!
I converted my F350 in 2006 and my Excursion in 2008 (both in sig). They have over 270,000 miles on WVO between them. I have helped more than a dozen friends do similar conversions on 7.3 PSD's and personally know enough people with this type of conversion to easily say there are waaaaay over a million miles between them all. My F350 was one of the earliest PSD's with this style of conversion (I mostly copied Jason Crawford/FN74's 'Vegistroke' design) and was quite the skeptic back then. This was an 'experiment' and I just hoped I didn't mess up my truck!!

The conversion system for the IDI trucks/cars is a little different, using 3-way switching valves, etc - but is equally successful. You can read alot about 'the right way' to do this type of conversion at FRYBRID SVO/WVO FORUM an open and public discussion of Vegetable Oil as a fuel - be sure to read all the links and info in the blue tabs at the top of the page (resources, FAQ, VO theory, etc)

I also made bio-d for a couple years using a BioPro 190. I had some issues running it in conjunction with WVO system in my F350's steel tank and the type of driving I was doing (non-stop cross-country trips) - but my poor experience is not the norm. As long as you fully convert the oil - IOW's, remove ALL of the glycerin - and thoroughly wash the bio-d, there is nothing wrong with using it. The only issue then becomes the cloud point/gel point, which is based on the feed stock you use - and shelf life of the fuel, which can have a lot of variables.

We made some B100 with hydrogenated WVO that was SOLID at 80*. I ended up burning that in my heated VO system...
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  #18  
Old 10-05-2012, 07:56 PM
CopperheadF250 CopperheadF250 is offline
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Can you send me any information you have about converting one my tanks to run veg oil?
Thanks
J
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  #19  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CopperheadF250 View Post
Can you send me any information you have about converting one my tanks to run veg oil?
Thanks
J
Everything ya need to know is in the link I posted above.
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  #20  
Old 10-06-2012, 04:32 PM
Philip Sanders Philip Sanders is offline
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THANK YOU Sky. I will check out this link tomorrow.

So in your experience you recommend the VO versus the Bio-d ? I would the think the VO would be a lil easier to make, not as many steps. I will begin my lil "experiment" when I get home (in about a month). My biggest concern was fouling injectors. running straight vo. But apparently that is not the case.

I like your de-watering set up. I think no matter which way I go, I will need one, never know when there may be water in the source your getting it from.

I have wanted a F250 for as long as I can remember. But I have no real "need" for a truck that big. I don't haul anything. But if I can get this bio-diesel to work, I will be grinnin from ear to ear. It is like driving around in your living room, and it don't cost money (little money) to fill it up!
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  #21  
Old 10-06-2012, 04:59 PM
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You're welcome.

I haven't made bio-d for awhile, but our cost/gal of B100 was between $1 and $1.50/gal depending on the cost of chems. The peak was 2008 when methanol went thru the roof, but lye and sulfuric acid were also high. The reason I chose SVO over bio-d originally, is because once the truck was converted my fuel cost was basically fixed. At one time, I figured my cost to collect/dewater/filter WVO was between $0.10 and $0.15/gal including gasoline for collection pump, electricity for dewatering and filters.

There is ALWAYS water in WVO. It MUST be removed before ya put it in the truck. Keep in mind that 'water-block' filters can not, do not and will not separate water from WVO.

On that note, 'water' filters - specifically whole house filters are not adequate for removing particulates for fuel use. If you are actually removing stuff (some people are lucky enough to get ridiculously clean oil) - they are also not very economical. For the best results, make sure you use a FUEL filter with an ABSOLUTE micron rating at least as low as your on-board filter as your final filter. Using sheets as a 'pre-filter' or blue jean legs sewn into filter bags are excellent ways to save money by making your fuel filters last longer. These cheap/free filters can be very effective, but are very slow with cool/cold oil.

Good luck and keep us posted!!
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  #22  
Old 10-20-2012, 06:01 PM
robertcoogan robertcoogan is offline
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linus72 has some good points, but I think he is assuming most are very experienced with WVO; I am not, so I steer this response towards the "relatively" inexperienced like myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by linus72 View Post
IT IS BEST TO MIX VEGGIE WITH SOME KEROSENE OR DIESEL, 2-3 GAL PER TANKFUL IS ENOUGH, AS DIESEL MAKES MORE POWER AND BETTER FLOW- LESS VISCOUS THAN VEGGIE
You can mix WVO with WMO or kerosene and have it run just fine. It all depends on your particular engine. If you aren't sure, have a diesel mechanic take a look fist. They can offer up some suggestions on mods to make to ensure success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linus72 View Post
BUY ANY "KIT" AT YOUR OWN RISK AS YOU REALLY ONLY NEED A DIY KIT MADE BY YOU!
This I disagree with a lot, though. It is always better to purchase a pre-made kit yourself, unless you are very knowledgeable about diesel engines. I almost did a dual tank conversion a year and a half ago, the kit would have had me running on a 60/40 mix of WVO and petro diesel. It would have only cost me $300 plus the cost of the kit (about $1,500). A pretty good deal, I just decided to go the B100 route instead. All I had to buy was a new lift pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linus72 View Post
BEST TO HAVE A DUAL FILTER SETUP ON THE VEGGIE SIDE
I don't knwo why you would need two filters. I have a friend who did go the dual-tank route, and he has only one. His Ford F-350 runs great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linus72 View Post
AGAIN I HAVE NO HEATERS, ETC ON MY TRUCK AND IT LOVES VEGGIE

FOR WINTER OBVIOUSLY YOU NEED TO HEAT THE VEGGIE SOME
If you live in a very cold climate (cold at any time), you WILL need to cut the WVO with petro diesel (this is also a very good idea if you are running a biodiesel blend as well). This is a must. There are a lot of additives you can buy to change the gel point, but none of them come close to the best one there is: petro diesel.
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2012, 07:26 PM
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Robert, with all due respect - I don't agree with anything in your post...

Yes, I fall into the category of 'experienced with WVO', but I have helped many not-so-experienced design and build 2-tank systems that work exceptionally well. I've also helped them design simple, but adequate dewatering and filtering systems to feed their new 'alternative fuel' vehicles with.

Blending WVO with WMO will end poorly, quickly and every time. Many have figured this out the hard way.

Many of the 'kits' on the market are junk - but can easily be replicated with off-the-shelf parts for a fraction of their retail price. Someone with modest skills can build a better system than many on the market themselves - with a little help. JR4332 is a prime example. I don't think ANYONE not capable of wrenching on their own junk at all should fool with 'alternative fuels' - they are not likely to save money in the long run...

Without separate fuel filters, you can NEVER remove all of the VO from the engine before shut down. I have helped a number of people 'fix' crappy designs on F350's like you mentioned. Eventually, the VO left in the heads will polymerize and take out a set of injectors while clogging the fuel rails - your friend will figure this out eventually. I just hope he's not far from home when it happens to him!

I have run straight WVO in -5*F temps with no issues whatsoever. I have driven 1000's of miles in temps that never got above freezing. If ya have to blend/cut the WVO for cold-weather operation, it just means you have a poorly designed system.
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  #24  
Old 10-21-2012, 12:42 AM
robertcoogan robertcoogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkySkiJason View Post
Many of the 'kits' on the market are junk - but can easily be replicated with off-the-shelf parts for a fraction of their retail price. Someone with modest skills can build a better system than many on the market themselves - with a little help.

Without separate fuel filters, you can NEVER remove all of the VO from the engine before shut down. I have helped a number of people 'fix' crappy designs on F350's like you mentioned. Eventually, the VO left in the heads will polymerize and take out a set of injectors while clogging the fuel rails - your friend will figure this out eventually.
Ok, I probably read some bad gouge there about WMO and WVO. But I still think that most kits are good. I find it hard to understand why anyone would sell a product like that without knowing that faulty design or bad manufacturing wouldn't fall back on their company. Most people who switch to WVO or biodiesel are probably not very experienced in diesel repair (why I always tell people to have a diesel mechanic check out their vehicles). Most don't know how to install a kit, which is probably what leads to having to fix a crappy design. Best left to more knowledgeable types.

And I totally disagree with your point on cold weather operation. The viscosity at cold temps can affect performance. Even diesels running up in arctic conditions that don't run any WVO or bio have to heat their fuel.
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  #25  
Old 10-21-2012, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcoogan View Post
And I totally disagree with your point on cold weather operation. The viscosity at cold temps can affect performance. Even diesels running up in arctic conditions that don't run any WVO or bio have to heat their fuel.
I can run WVO in colder temps than most people can run diesel. They key to a good conversion is adequately heating the WVO to reduce viscosity to replicate diesel. My VO is near coolant temp - regardless of ambient temps. I see 180-200* fuel in my conversions before the heads (it gets significantly hotter in a PSD before it gets to the injectors).

As far as 'falling back on the company' - that's a joke. Once they have your money, there is nothing to go back to. Each of these companies will blame the user for the issues... I have met more people than I can count who wasted their money on a POS system that either fails to work right EVER, or caused so many problems or even engine damage that they eventually just gave up on using it. There are a couple of systems on the market that don't fall into this category - namely, Frybrid and Vegistroke. The others all have major design flaws that inevitably cause problems from things like a lack of adequate heat, using materials (specifically copper heat exchangers) that promote polymerization or 'shared' filters. In some climates, these flaws take longer to cause damage/failures than others - but I'd go as far as to say there are as many failures as successes. Most people think 'its too good to be true' when they start out and are simply not surprised when it doesn't work out.

In over 270k miles burning WVO in my (2) PSD's - I have never had a fuel-related issue.

I always say 'Choose wisely, or please post pics of the carnage'.
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  #26  
Old 10-21-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkySkiJason View Post
I can run WVO in colder temps than most people can run diesel. They key to a good conversion is adequately heating the WVO to reduce viscosity to replicate diesel. My VO is near coolant temp - regardless of ambient temps. I see 180-200* fuel in my conversions before the heads (it gets significantly hotter in a PSD before it gets to the injectors).

As far as 'falling back on the company' - that's a joke. Once they have your money, there is nothing to go back to. Each of these companies will blame the user for the issues... I have met more people than I can count who wasted their money on a POS system that either fails to work right EVER, or caused so many problems or even engine damage that they eventually just gave up on using it. There are a couple of systems on the market that don't fall into this category - namely, Frybrid and Vegistroke. The others all have major design flaws that inevitably cause problems from things like a lack of adequate heat, using materials (specifically copper heat exchangers) that promote polymerization or 'shared' filters. In some climates, these flaws take longer to cause damage/failures than others - but I'd go as far as to say there are as many failures as successes. Most people think 'its too good to be true' when they start out and are simply not surprised when it doesn't work out.

In over 270k miles burning WVO in my (2) PSD's - I have never had a fuel-related issue.

I always say 'Choose wisely, or please post pics of the carnage'.
That was my whole point from my first post...you need to reduce viscosity. You do that through heating and blending. What I said the first time!

And as for your pessimism about holding a company responsible, I hope I never develop that attitude. If someone honestly thinks that doing nothing is the best choice when they are ripped off, I feel very sorry for them. I myself go and do something about it.
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Old 10-21-2012, 10:59 AM
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I don't 'blend' - there is no need if you have a good conversion. Adding D2/kero/etc is just a bandaid for a poorly designed VO system.

Let me know how it works out when your Lovecraft system trashes your pristine MBZ. Or tell me what Golden Showers has to say when you replace injectors after 40k miles running their POS conversion (shared filters, inadequate heat, etc). Or what Greasecrap says when your copper HE fuel tank is a poly-factory. I know what they say - I have helped dozens of people 'fix' these poorly designed systems that either never worked at all or caused so much trouble they weren't worth it. Apparently, some people tolerate the need to cut VO in cold weather and having to regularly give their fuel tank and lines an enema to remove poly - but I have to believe they just don't know any better...

But hey, I learned a long time ago ya seldom win an 'argument' on the www... I just reply to help others make better decisions if they choose to go with a WVO conversion!

Somebody used to have in their sig 'Winning an argument on the internet is like getting a medal in the Special Olympics'.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatont9999 View Post
Linus72,

Veggie oil to me is a tricky oil to run in a Diesel. The long term effects and engine damage of improperly running veggie are well known. I don't have the resources right now to correctly run it, so I stick with the waste dino oil. Basically, if you get a clean supply, cut it, let it settle and filter it, you are done. Bio Diesel is even more complicated. I'm not Walter White, so I stay away from that as well.

Firstly, I suspect a lift pump issue on your truck. Secondly, if the IP is worn and the tolerances are no longer there, it will not be able to build up pop pressure to pop the injectors. The thicker fuel fills the gaps in the internals of the pump and allows it to get up to pop pressure. The pump I sent you has always worked fine for me, that is why I doubt it is the IP.

Injector codes mean little to me because they could have been rebuilt or they have all settled to a similar pop pressure. You need to pop test any injector before you know if it matches the others.
Biodiesel is perfectly fine to run in just about any diesel vehicle out there. I have a 2006 6L Ford that has been running on B100 for over fourteen months now, with no problems whatever. I did install a new lift pump beforehand, but other than that, nothing. My truck runs great, I even saw a very moderate bump in milage to boot.
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