Electrical Germlin,, HAH,,,More like an Oger
#16
09-18-2012, 08:09 PM
That link is not working, make sure you open the diagram in a separate tab or window, and then copy that url in your post(the raw jpg file). I think it usually works that way.
I don't see any meter work here, only plugging and unplugging connectors and fuses. Do you have a meter or testlight? If not, you will need it if you want to continue with this.
I don't see any meter work here, only plugging and unplugging connectors and fuses. Do you have a meter or testlight? If not, you will need it if you want to continue with this.
#17
09-18-2012, 08:20 PM
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| Repair Guides | Module Communications Network (2003) | Module Communications Network (2003) | AutoZone.com
Hmm, works fine on this end. Yes I do have both,,,
Hmm, works fine on this end. Yes I do have both,,,
#18
09-18-2012, 08:49 PM
You might not like this answer but have you checked the PCM? If your alternator went south on you and it messed it up, you could have issues with it. The PCM these days monitors everything you have listed and could have issues.
One reason you cant just go buy a new alternator, without knowing what voltage regulator combo it has in it.
One reason you cant just go buy a new alternator, without knowing what voltage regulator combo it has in it.
#19
09-18-2012, 09:46 PM
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You may already be aware of and versed in the points of discussion I'm about to offer. And unfortunately, I have little way of knowing for sure if my input here is either helpful to you or possibly distracting chatter. But given the chance that it *might* be helpful... I'll offer it up for whatever it's worth.
I was reading back through your first few posts and came across your description of having first straight-wired, and then ultimately having eliminated a relay (low speed I think?) originally used to feed power to the E-fan. I had to re-read it several times.. and I think I understand your description correctly now.
I don't presume that you aren't aware of this, but it's worth including anyway because it's fundamental to what I'm going to suggest in a minute. -- First off, relays are typically used to isolate (higher current) power-feed circuits from the controlling signals used to turn such devices on/off (or in some cases, to isolate such current-hungry devices from their *conditional* ((usually means multiple-inputs covering differing conditions)) device controller signals.
I don't have the advantage of having a wiring diagram for your vehicle in front of me at the moment, but from your description of the instrument-panel's behavior (sweep/dimming) as being linked with the falling speed of the E Fan after turning the truck off (E Fan fed by accessory-mode/fuse).... this sounds very much like you may have a loop-back or multi-circuit cross-feed effect going on. Now I should add that if in fact this might be the case.... then that doesn't necessarily mean that your truck has suffered melted wiring or that you're dealing with some kind of significant wiring damage. Let's hope not anyway.
Keep in mind that many electric motors in automotive applications are good old-fashioned DC permanent-magnet (commutated) motors. But that also means they are also (in effect) electrical generators as well. Also keep in mind that some control relays are designed in such a way as to *share* (if you will) "one side" of a simple two-pole electrical power supply. All kinds of different relay designs come to mind here... but especially what is known as a "latching" type relay. Such latching relays can be designed in several different ways... but the important thing to understand is that some will (under certain circumstances) allow for undesirable cross-feed effects (certainly unintended by the designers) as mentioned earlier.
And furthermore since (as best I understand it)... the A/C fan (high & low speed fan relay signals), along with certain other "control-level' inputs (which for example; might come from the EAT module as signal-level voltage inputs)... not to mention other on/off commands to the E Fan which may originate (probably) from engine-coolant temperature sensor(s).... --- then the potential chances for a power loop-back phenomenon (with power generated from the E Fan in this case) is enhanced significantly.
I've seen this kind of semi-complicated phenomenon happen on more than one occasion with certain industrial-control systems where the technicians couldn't initially comprehend the unexpected behavior of circuits that seemed (on the surface) like they should have no logical effect or bearing on other 'supposedly isolated' and functionally unrelated circuits within a control system matrix.
To summarize; if the power supply to the E Fan is somehow NOT isolated (via proper 'as-manufacturer-intended' relay deployment) from other subsystems such as instruments, EAT, or other "accessory" class circuitry... then I can imagine how the E Fan could generate a back-feed effect into other semi-but-not-totally isolated sub-circuitry (perhaps through the ignition switch control module or possibly the GEM controlled timed-delay relays or similar stuff?).
So basically, In addition to following Franklin2's advice about checking all ground points for proper integrity -- I'm suggesting that perhaps you should at this point return to the original relay-based control of the E Fan using only known good components and especially only using the recommended (thus hopefully historically-proven) electrical supply source-points for providing supply power to the Fan system.
And finally, this may not of course directly address the not-working issues you have listed with certain other lights etc. -- but those again...may very well turn out to be other unrelated and separately distinct problems not necessarily linked-in to what I'm trying to address above.
-- Just my two cents worth.
I was reading back through your first few posts and came across your description of having first straight-wired, and then ultimately having eliminated a relay (low speed I think?) originally used to feed power to the E-fan. I had to re-read it several times.. and I think I understand your description correctly now.
I don't presume that you aren't aware of this, but it's worth including anyway because it's fundamental to what I'm going to suggest in a minute. -- First off, relays are typically used to isolate (higher current) power-feed circuits from the controlling signals used to turn such devices on/off (or in some cases, to isolate such current-hungry devices from their *conditional* ((usually means multiple-inputs covering differing conditions)) device controller signals.
I don't have the advantage of having a wiring diagram for your vehicle in front of me at the moment, but from your description of the instrument-panel's behavior (sweep/dimming) as being linked with the falling speed of the E Fan after turning the truck off (E Fan fed by accessory-mode/fuse).... this sounds very much like you may have a loop-back or multi-circuit cross-feed effect going on. Now I should add that if in fact this might be the case.... then that doesn't necessarily mean that your truck has suffered melted wiring or that you're dealing with some kind of significant wiring damage. Let's hope not anyway.
Keep in mind that many electric motors in automotive applications are good old-fashioned DC permanent-magnet (commutated) motors. But that also means they are also (in effect) electrical generators as well. Also keep in mind that some control relays are designed in such a way as to *share* (if you will) "one side" of a simple two-pole electrical power supply. All kinds of different relay designs come to mind here... but especially what is known as a "latching" type relay. Such latching relays can be designed in several different ways... but the important thing to understand is that some will (under certain circumstances) allow for undesirable cross-feed effects (certainly unintended by the designers) as mentioned earlier.
And furthermore since (as best I understand it)... the A/C fan (high & low speed fan relay signals), along with certain other "control-level' inputs (which for example; might come from the EAT module as signal-level voltage inputs)... not to mention other on/off commands to the E Fan which may originate (probably) from engine-coolant temperature sensor(s).... --- then the potential chances for a power loop-back phenomenon (with power generated from the E Fan in this case) is enhanced significantly.
I've seen this kind of semi-complicated phenomenon happen on more than one occasion with certain industrial-control systems where the technicians couldn't initially comprehend the unexpected behavior of circuits that seemed (on the surface) like they should have no logical effect or bearing on other 'supposedly isolated' and functionally unrelated circuits within a control system matrix.
To summarize; if the power supply to the E Fan is somehow NOT isolated (via proper 'as-manufacturer-intended' relay deployment) from other subsystems such as instruments, EAT, or other "accessory" class circuitry... then I can imagine how the E Fan could generate a back-feed effect into other semi-but-not-totally isolated sub-circuitry (perhaps through the ignition switch control module or possibly the GEM controlled timed-delay relays or similar stuff?).
So basically, In addition to following Franklin2's advice about checking all ground points for proper integrity -- I'm suggesting that perhaps you should at this point return to the original relay-based control of the E Fan using only known good components and especially only using the recommended (thus hopefully historically-proven) electrical supply source-points for providing supply power to the Fan system.
And finally, this may not of course directly address the not-working issues you have listed with certain other lights etc. -- but those again...may very well turn out to be other unrelated and separately distinct problems not necessarily linked-in to what I'm trying to address above.
-- Just my two cents worth.
#20
09-19-2012, 09:31 AM
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This has crossed my mind...
You might not like this answer but have you checked the PCM? If your alternator went south on you and it messed it up, you could have issues with it. The PCM these days monitors everything you have listed and could have issues.
One reason you cant just go buy a new alternator, without knowing what voltage regulator combo it has in it.
One reason you cant just go buy a new alternator, without knowing what voltage regulator combo it has in it.
#21
09-19-2012, 09:55 AM
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Yes, you are correct in your assumption. That is /has occurred, now where does the damage lye.......
You may already be aware of and versed in the points of discussion I'm about to offer. And unfortunately, I have little way of knowing for sure if my input here is either helpful to you or possibly distracting chatter. But given the chance that it *might* be helpful... I'll offer it up for whatever it's worth.
I was reading back through your first few posts and came across your description of having first straight-wired, and then ultimately having eliminated a relay (low speed I think?) originally used to feed power to the E-fan. I had to re-read it several times.. and I think I understand your description correctly now.
I don't presume that you aren't aware of this, but it's worth including anyway because it's fundamental to what I'm going to suggest in a minute. -- First off, relays are typically used to isolate (higher current) power-feed circuits from the controlling signals used to turn such devices on/off (or in some cases, to isolate such current-hungry devices from their *conditional* ((usually means multiple-inputs covering differing conditions)) device controller signals.
I don't have the advantage of having a wiring diagram for your vehicle in front of me at the moment, but from your description of the instrument-panel's behavior (sweep/dimming) as being linked with the falling speed of the E Fan after turning the truck off (E Fan fed by accessory-mode/fuse).... this sounds very much like you may have a loop-back or multi-circuit cross-feed effect going on. Now I should add that if in fact this might be the case.... then that doesn't necessarily mean that your truck has suffered melted wiring or that you're dealing with some kind of significant wiring damage. Let's hope not anyway.
Keep in mind that many electric motors in automotive applications are good old-fashioned DC permanent-magnet (commutated) motors. But that also means they are also (in effect) electrical generators as well. Also keep in mind that some control relays are designed in such a way as to *share* (if you will) "one side" of a simple two-pole electrical power supply. All kinds of different relay designs come to mind here... but especially what is known as a "latching" type relay. Such latching relays can be designed in several different ways... but the important thing to understand is that some will (under certain circumstances) allow for undesirable cross-feed effects (certainly unintended by the designers) as mentioned earlier.
And furthermore since (as best I understand it)... the A/C fan (high & low speed fan relay signals), along with certain other "control-level' inputs (which for example; might come from the EAT module as signal-level voltage inputs)... not to mention other on/off commands to the E Fan which may originate (probably) from engine-coolant temperature sensor(s).... --- then the potential chances for a power loop-back phenomenon (with power generated from the E Fan in this case) is enhanced significantly.
I've seen this kind of semi-complicated phenomenon happen on more than one occasion with certain industrial-control systems where the technicians couldn't initially comprehend the unexpected behavior of circuits that seemed (on the surface) like they should have no logical effect or bearing on other 'supposedly isolated' and functionally unrelated circuits within a control system matrix.
To summarize; if the power supply to the E Fan is somehow NOT isolated (via proper 'as-manufacturer-intended' relay deployment) from other subsystems such as instruments, EAT, or other "accessory" class circuitry... then I can imagine how the E Fan could generate a back-feed effect into other semi-but-not-totally isolated sub-circuitry (perhaps through the ignition switch control module or possibly the GEM controlled timed-delay relays or similar stuff?).
So basically, In addition to following Franklin2's advice about checking all ground points for proper integrity -- I'm suggesting that perhaps you should at this point return to the original relay-based control of the E Fan using only known good components and especially only using the recommended (thus hopefully historically-proven) electrical supply source-points for providing supply power to the Fan system.
And finally, this may not of course directly address the not-working issues you have listed with certain other lights etc. -- but those again...may very well turn out to be other unrelated and separately distinct problems not necessarily linked-in to what I'm trying to address above.
-- Just my two cents worth.
I was reading back through your first few posts and came across your description of having first straight-wired, and then ultimately having eliminated a relay (low speed I think?) originally used to feed power to the E-fan. I had to re-read it several times.. and I think I understand your description correctly now.
I don't presume that you aren't aware of this, but it's worth including anyway because it's fundamental to what I'm going to suggest in a minute. -- First off, relays are typically used to isolate (higher current) power-feed circuits from the controlling signals used to turn such devices on/off (or in some cases, to isolate such current-hungry devices from their *conditional* ((usually means multiple-inputs covering differing conditions)) device controller signals.
I don't have the advantage of having a wiring diagram for your vehicle in front of me at the moment, but from your description of the instrument-panel's behavior (sweep/dimming) as being linked with the falling speed of the E Fan after turning the truck off (E Fan fed by accessory-mode/fuse).... this sounds very much like you may have a loop-back or multi-circuit cross-feed effect going on. Now I should add that if in fact this might be the case.... then that doesn't necessarily mean that your truck has suffered melted wiring or that you're dealing with some kind of significant wiring damage. Let's hope not anyway.
Keep in mind that many electric motors in automotive applications are good old-fashioned DC permanent-magnet (commutated) motors. But that also means they are also (in effect) electrical generators as well. Also keep in mind that some control relays are designed in such a way as to *share* (if you will) "one side" of a simple two-pole electrical power supply. All kinds of different relay designs come to mind here... but especially what is known as a "latching" type relay. Such latching relays can be designed in several different ways... but the important thing to understand is that some will (under certain circumstances) allow for undesirable cross-feed effects (certainly unintended by the designers) as mentioned earlier.
And furthermore since (as best I understand it)... the A/C fan (high & low speed fan relay signals), along with certain other "control-level' inputs (which for example; might come from the EAT module as signal-level voltage inputs)... not to mention other on/off commands to the E Fan which may originate (probably) from engine-coolant temperature sensor(s).... --- then the potential chances for a power loop-back phenomenon (with power generated from the E Fan in this case) is enhanced significantly.
I've seen this kind of semi-complicated phenomenon happen on more than one occasion with certain industrial-control systems where the technicians couldn't initially comprehend the unexpected behavior of circuits that seemed (on the surface) like they should have no logical effect or bearing on other 'supposedly isolated' and functionally unrelated circuits within a control system matrix.
To summarize; if the power supply to the E Fan is somehow NOT isolated (via proper 'as-manufacturer-intended' relay deployment) from other subsystems such as instruments, EAT, or other "accessory" class circuitry... then I can imagine how the E Fan could generate a back-feed effect into other semi-but-not-totally isolated sub-circuitry (perhaps through the ignition switch control module or possibly the GEM controlled timed-delay relays or similar stuff?).
So basically, In addition to following Franklin2's advice about checking all ground points for proper integrity -- I'm suggesting that perhaps you should at this point return to the original relay-based control of the E Fan using only known good components and especially only using the recommended (thus hopefully historically-proven) electrical supply source-points for providing supply power to the Fan system.
And finally, this may not of course directly address the not-working issues you have listed with certain other lights etc. -- but those again...may very well turn out to be other unrelated and separately distinct problems not necessarily linked-in to what I'm trying to address above.
-- Just my two cents worth.
#22
09-19-2012, 10:43 PM
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love dogs? ... pfffffffftt! -- dealing with 3 myself. -- only *one* of 'em belongs to me tho.
".. am a virgo..? " ...... heheheheh...
you in a heapa' trouble now boy!!~ I got yur number...
--- WTF? -- did you rig up the E Fan back to a *proper* relay-control config???
-- if so, then what's the current sit-rep on the item-list of non-working functions???
just as an aside... gotta' mid-seventies gibson 12 stringer.... severely mistreated (left on the rear car-deck on the beach (hot sun) all day long & other torture-treatment etc.) -- the owner has already written if off... but NOT me!!
~ re-formed the deck - fabricated a rosewood reinforcement block underneath.. and still need to re-fret the neck. !! Purfling and all other stuff to follow in the wake.
sooo... to get back on topic ~ as Franklin2 asked earlier... where's the meter-work on all the electrical stuff with the show Queen??
Cheers!! Dr. Fisch ~ dave r.
#23
09-29-2012, 06:55 PM
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Back to messing with it again, let me throw something out here. It has a 6 year old yellow top optima battery, it reads 12.6V... which a month ago, I went to Texas for 2 weeks and came back it was dead.
Just wondering if it had a dead cell in it , could it cause this ghost type electrical issue??
I have pulled the e-fan out and re-installed the stock fan, checked allot of grounds along the way, cleaned everything in my path.
Tried a programed GEM & fuse panel combo out of 2002 F150 HD from a friends truck. Same thing, nothing. Just wondering if a weak battery,,,, could cause this,, could it be that simple or and I just smok'n crack here and being wishful??
Just wondering if it had a dead cell in it , could it cause this ghost type electrical issue??
I have pulled the e-fan out and re-installed the stock fan, checked allot of grounds along the way, cleaned everything in my path.
Tried a programed GEM & fuse panel combo out of 2002 F150 HD from a friends truck. Same thing, nothing. Just wondering if a weak battery,,,, could cause this,, could it be that simple or and I just smok'n crack here and being wishful??
#24
09-29-2012, 09:48 PM
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Hey Luthier! --- Get a grip!
---> You can chase squirrels, ghosts, and herrings in a rainbow of colors til the cows come home if you're really that determined to do so.
But if you want to solve your electrical problems in a more intelligent way... then get a decent multi-meter and start checking things *one* by *one*in a more logical fashion. And try to keep that imagination and that fast&furious mind of yours under control.
Using the following as a reference: | Repair Guides | Module Communications Network (2003) | Module Communications Network (2003) | AutoZone.com
START HERE:
With the key switch OFF:
Step #1: check to see if you have 12V+ coming *out* of the 50amp fuse slot [F1.103] located in the Battery-Junction-Box (BJB [14A003]) -- TN/BK wire
Step #2: check to see if you have 12V+ going *into* the 20amp fuse [F-2.3] located in the Central-Junction-Box (CJB [14A068]) -- TN/BK wire
Step #3: check to see if you have 12V+ coming *out* of the 20amp fuse slot [F-2.3] located in the Central-Junction-Box (CJB [14A068]) -- LB/WH wire
Step #4: now go back and repeat steps #1,#2,#3... but this time turn the key switch ON before testing:
THEN: use a test-light with a good frame-ground point for the light's alligator-clip and go back through all above steps.
**When you're finished.... then report back here, and let us know just exactly what your test results are.
Please understand, I mean no disrespect... so if you don't care for my suggestions.. then just lemme' know. -- I'll be happy to step aside and you can have all the fun you want with your ghosts.
Cheers,
dave r.
---> You can chase squirrels, ghosts, and herrings in a rainbow of colors til the cows come home if you're really that determined to do so.
But if you want to solve your electrical problems in a more intelligent way... then get a decent multi-meter and start checking things *one* by *one*in a more logical fashion. And try to keep that imagination and that fast&furious mind of yours under control.
Using the following as a reference: | Repair Guides | Module Communications Network (2003) | Module Communications Network (2003) | AutoZone.com
START HERE:
With the key switch OFF:
Step #1: check to see if you have 12V+ coming *out* of the 50amp fuse slot [F1.103] located in the Battery-Junction-Box (BJB [14A003]) -- TN/BK wire
Step #2: check to see if you have 12V+ going *into* the 20amp fuse [F-2.3] located in the Central-Junction-Box (CJB [14A068]) -- TN/BK wire
Step #3: check to see if you have 12V+ coming *out* of the 20amp fuse slot [F-2.3] located in the Central-Junction-Box (CJB [14A068]) -- LB/WH wire
Step #4: now go back and repeat steps #1,#2,#3... but this time turn the key switch ON before testing:
THEN: use a test-light with a good frame-ground point for the light's alligator-clip and go back through all above steps.
**When you're finished.... then report back here, and let us know just exactly what your test results are.
Please understand, I mean no disrespect... so if you don't care for my suggestions.. then just lemme' know. -- I'll be happy to step aside and you can have all the fun you want with your ghosts.
Cheers,
dave r.
#25
09-30-2012, 02:58 PM
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This is with my original GEM & Fuse Panel.
With 12.6 Volts @ the battery.
Key off;
Step #1 Yes 12V With Volt Meter & Light to the engine side tang (F1.103) fuse out
Step #2 No with Volt Meter & Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Step #3 No with Volt Meter & Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Key on in forward ignition position;
Step #1 Yes 12V Meter & Light to the engine side tang (F1.103) fuse out
Step #2 3V , No Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Step #3 3V , No Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Key on in ACC. Position;
Step #1 Y 12V & Light (F1.103) fuse out
Step #2 N & N (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Step #3 N & N (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Fuse #103 With the fuse out gets 12V to the engine side tang Key on or off.
0V to the fender side tang with the key off and or in ACC. position.
3V to the fender side tang with the key in the forward ignition position.
For future reference;
Fuse #103 in fuse panel #1 ( F1.103 ) powers the Central Junction Box 50amp. BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE HOT AT ALL TIMES
Fuse #3 in fuse panel #2 (F2.3 ) Powers the Cigarette Lighter & the Data Link Connector 20amp. BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE HOT AT ALL TIMES
With 12.6 Volts @ the battery.
Key off;
Step #1 Yes 12V With Volt Meter & Light to the engine side tang (F1.103) fuse out
Step #2 No with Volt Meter & Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Step #3 No with Volt Meter & Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Key on in forward ignition position;
Step #1 Yes 12V Meter & Light to the engine side tang (F1.103) fuse out
Step #2 3V , No Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Step #3 3V , No Light (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Key on in ACC. Position;
Step #1 Y 12V & Light (F1.103) fuse out
Step #2 N & N (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Step #3 N & N (F2.3) fuse #103 in
Fuse #103 With the fuse out gets 12V to the engine side tang Key on or off.
0V to the fender side tang with the key off and or in ACC. position.
3V to the fender side tang with the key in the forward ignition position.
For future reference;
Fuse #103 in fuse panel #1 ( F1.103 ) powers the Central Junction Box 50amp. BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE HOT AT ALL TIMES
Fuse #3 in fuse panel #2 (F2.3 ) Powers the Cigarette Lighter & the Data Link Connector 20amp. BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE HOT AT ALL TIMES
Last edited by Luthier; 09-30-2012 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Add info
#26
09-30-2012, 04:33 PM
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#29
09-30-2012, 06:51 PM
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Thanks bro, you made me stop and look it from a different angle. When I had looked at the schematics the other day I still had no clue as to where I was supposed to head. It took a little hand holding,, but as soon as I saw the 3V feed back click on came the light. I knew I had no power to that source, but I didn't know why... Because I thought that fuse was good.. Again BIG thanks....
If I can help you out in the Guitar world let me know sir...
If I can help you out in the Guitar world let me know sir...
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