So we have weight ratings, safety equipment etc. But where do we actually see failures. Like I've never actually seen a hitch fail, and looking at my and many setups and there "safety chains" it occurs to me that anything that would break my hitch would also break the safety chains. Has anyone actually broken something, and better yet have they actually had the day saved by safety chains?

How about the truck, anyone had a frame failure with there hitch? I have but I was really pushing things, it was a real cheap reviever hitch on a lifted 1/2 ton Jeep truck. Was towing a car hauler with a 4wd F350 on it that had to be loaded too far forward to fit the 21' truck on the 20' trailer. The reciever was bolted under a combination of the rear crossmember and the bumper. All that weight hanging out on a long drop insert twisted the bumper and rear crossmember that the cheap reciever was bolted to so when I got where I was going the hitch was down at about a 30deg angle. But with all that I never came close to anything breaking, how about you?

One of my biggest reasons for asking this is both interest and more important I need to get an idea when I'm going to reach the limits and should do to limit the chances of failures. I'd really like to push the limits of towing off the back so I can plan correctly to tow as much as possible without using my bed for a gooseneck.

Course this brings up another question proably better asked elswhere but I'll toss it in here. Real tire limits, sure we have load ratings but really when do you start running into problems. I had one experiance where I the exceded limits. A full bed and loaded car trailer towed by a 65 1/2 ton with a 9" and LT tires. I don't really remember what the tires were, we trashed them that day for better ones, the tires that were on it felt like driving on marshmellows. Some new higher load rating tires did the trick.

Anyway, the single biggest limit on my truck that will be hard for me to upgrade with mods is that it's SRW and staying that way. I have no interest in driving a dually, this truck is my daily driver. So I got 10 ply tires with a 4000lbs load rating and as yet have had no problems. So when am I going to really have problems and what will they be?

 

the failure point depends on your exact setup. i once pulled close to 10k on a 3500# hitch ball without breaking it. but on that trip i broke the tow dolly rated at 6k.

i would say the most common limits are: brakes, tires, transmissions, in that order. what happens when you put a tandem axle cube trailer that might weigh 5k behind a dodge dakota and don't realize you don't have a brake controller? yeah, you don't stop. of course, if you have good trailer brakes, that part of the consideration is no longer an issue.
then we have tires - in both my F150 and F250, i've loaded them down with firewood or gravel to the point that 35 MPH is as fast as i dare go because of tire sway and general instability. in both cases, i was using the highest load rating i could find (c and e, respectively), and inflated fully to the spec on the sidewall, and maybe just a few pounds over. on one such occasion in the f150, i was rolling down a gravel road at 5MPH when i heard/felt a loud hissing noise followed by one corner of the truck dropping. a round rock about the size of a golf ball had gone through the tread of the tire. i've had a fair number of other tire failures based on overloading as well.
also, i've heard of people breaking leaf springs. on one occasion, i was working on an early 90s F250 that had air bag helper springs, and the frame was broken where those mounted to it.

for safety chains, they primarily get used in 2 cases: when the operator fails to properly lock the coupler onto the ball, forgets the little clip on the hitch pin, or otherwise does something stupid. and when the coupler fails from old age or whatever else - possibly a collision or a ball that wasn't properly tightened to the ball mount and comes loose... but hitches don't fail from an excessive linear pull while you're towing up a hill or anything basic like that.

for the hitch failure, i'd be curious to know the actual weight of the trailer, rating of the hitch, tongue weight, etc. and then consider the dynamic forces of you slamming on the brakes or whatever, combined with the extra leverage of that tall drop. in short, you had it coming to you for an unwise combination - but you already know that

now you mention your goal of pushing your limits as far as you think you can - i find several points that you must consider when doing so
1) balance - i've screwed this up at least once. a 6000# truck with a 4000# trailer limited to 35 MPH because the load was off balance to the rear. any further speed caused the tail to wag the dog, and honestly i almost wrecked it in the first mile. with proper balance and brakes, that truck wouldn't have had much trouble towing a few times that weight.
2) consider the conditions around you - don't even try pushing your limits on steep hills, crazy traffic, or anything else that will compromise the safety factor that the driver builds into every situation.
3) temperature - if you have an auto tranny, it better have an aux cooler and a temp gage. also have a real temp gage on your engine - its way too easy to work that temp up there when its working that hard.

now one thing about tire ratings, the tire is rated to handle the given load AT ITS RATED SPEED with the correct pressure. when you cut that speed in half from the tire rating, you can get away with a good bit more load. if you're playing with this, its wise to stop every so often and feel the tires for heat buildup. if they're getting hot, you need to either reduce the load, increase the pressure, or reduce the speed - or they will eventually blow up.

well that should at least get you started thinking about how far you think you can go...

 

Destructive limits are well above rated limits and at the point of destruction variables other than weight may come into play making calculations unreliable.

Surely there must be easier ways to risk the lives of others?

Steve

 

Broke a couple axles on my dad's 64 F100 with 9" rear on it a few times.

Tires are always the weak point.

Just recently up in Ohio we pulled 16.5K of gravel off the receiver rated for 12.K. Did just fine.

 

Josh, Brakes, transmission, engine, etc I'm not really concerned with in this thread, I got that handled. Brakes however brings up something I saw once though. When working as a Ford dealership I saw a guy trading in his base model 90s toyota PU, 2wd, 4cyl, manual, reg cab, etc, super base model. Not that interesting except I looked from the back and saw a class 4 hitch with a 7 pin plug, going WTF I looked in the cab and saw a rather high end electric brake controller. WTF was that guy doing with that truck that he needed that equipment?

Anyway, did you actually say you pushed a rock thru a tire? Tell me more about your tire failures? How far over there rating or service life ya think you were? And the broken frame from the airbags is certainly something to take note of, what do you think caused it?

Hitch failure, you asking about the one with the Jeep. I have no idea the rating on the truck, the trailer itself weighs about 2000 with a truck that probably weighed 8000 on it. So it was probably 10,000 Gross on a tandom axle trailer. Cause of how long the truck is I had to put more weight on the tongue then usual, I would guess about 25% of the total so 2500lbs on the tongue. All of this should have been fine, except having to load the truck so far forward on the trailer, I tried it backwords but that didn't put enough weight on the tongue to be at all stable, otherwise the set up would have easily handled it all.

Balance, well of course, learned that leason with the Jeep, lol

Tires, so is it a heat thing? As long as the tire stays cool and not severly overpressure it shouldn't fail? Not saying it will handle well but won't blow?

I have no idea the speed rating of my swampers, but I've had them up over 100 without any trouble. I certainly don't want to push my tires too hard, a blow out can kill. But it's good to know what can be done. BTW this is in no way an endorsement for taking swampers to 100MPH, there not even round let alone balanced. This is however a HUGE endorsement for dynabeads. Few would believe how well my swampers do at speed without a single wheel weight ever being used. These suckers are as smooth as my fiances thighs at speed and have never even been on a tire balancer.

Steve, well of course there is, but if that's what I wanted I wouldn't be here asking would I? I'd be another dip**** exceding the limits of an 8.8, not putting time and money into my F350 to get the most I safely can out of it. The Jeep for instance, I NEVER would have done that with a 1/2 ton chevy of any kind or a ford with an 8.8. Pushing a C-clip axle is just asking for trouble but the Jeep with a model 20, 401, 727 etc was just fine except of course the issue mentioned. But seeing about going over the rated weight on an F350 with apropriate mods and trying to learn what those mods should be seams perfectly reasonable.

Scott, yeah I wasted a 9" in a 65 F100 but didn't break the axle, I killed the ring and pinion teath. 16.5 off a 12k hitch is more along the lines of what I'm after, what was the set up, how did it pull?

Anyway for now I'm looking for info on weeknesses that can't be delt with as they happen. Things like my tranny overheating, brakes not strong enough, etc. I'll have warning on can predict and can deal with thru diving changes and mods. The frame breaking or a tire blowing I can't and would be catastrophic.

Shoot I guess I should mention it's an '87 F350 CCLB 4WD.

 

It was a dump trailer and I had a weight dist hitch on it.

 

No matter how much you upgrade everything else on the truck, tires will be a weak point. Think putting LT tires on a class 8 rig!

I pulled a 48' single drop flatbed back in the 70's. 10' upper deck and would stretch 25' on the lower deck. It had 15" tires on Dayton wheels. Tires were 18 ply and would easily haul 34,000 lbs. I once hauled almost 36,000 on the trailer tires from Houston Tx to Salt Lake City Ut. It was 1 inch plate steel and I could not get the load any closer to the front of the trailer.

Heavier duty tires are available, likely have to go to a commercial tire store and they are expensive. Those 15" tires cost almost as much as a 24.5 steer axle tire. Ran close to 5 grand to outfit truck and trailer tires over 30 yrs ago.

 

The question you are asking, as I see it, is how much weight can I put on my truck before something breaks that I do not plan on breaking and there is not a single person on this forum who has the vaguest idea what that weight might because virtually know one weighs their truck planning on a catastrophic event and, even if they did, there is not way to know if the weigh limit would be reproducible given the number of confounding variable that would be in play. All you can possibly get here are anecdotal responses which may have no meaning at all to your specific situation.

Even when designed, where a component fails takes place within a range with some failing below and some failing above the the design limit. In my opinion, it all becomes a crap shoot. The only way this question could validly be answered in a controlled experiment, until that happens, no matter what you do, you will just be guessing.

Steve

 

you want more on tire failures - you got it
the one i drove a rock through was a kumho 30x10.5r15 load range C. tread was still pretty decent, and i had bought them new a year or two before. that F150 was loaded up pretty far with gravel, but it was a number of years ago and i didn't have a way to weigh it, so i can't make an accurate weight estimate. these trips involved about 5 miles of gravel road, much of which was downhill, and that means painfully low speeds. i think i'd just downshifted (probably to low-2nd) for the coming hill when it happened. the rock was sitting on top of the hard gravel of the road, and that was all it took.
that truck never had a dangerous high speed blowout, so the rest of the stories are from my f250 or e350, which run 235/85r16 load range e.
on day driving down 405 in kirkland, i felt something out of balance on the rear of my F250, which was loaded as heavy as i felt safe doing highway speeds. rear axle was probably carrying 7k or so. it felt bad, so i pulled off at 124th and stopped in a parking lot, where i found that i was missing a section of tread half the width of the tire and a third of its circumference. i changed it immediately, and it never blew up, but was obviously condemned. the tire wasn't any warmer than it should have been.
on another day, my old man borrowed that truck to go cut firewood, and had an almost identical tire failure at low speed, except that the loose piece of rubber was still attached at one end. he didn't want to dig out the spares, so he called me to bring him one. we were just putting the new tire in place when the condemned one EXPLODED, showering us both in gravel.
on multiple occasions, i've had tires just split down the sidewall, in a straight line from tread to rim. i've lost count on how many times this has happened, i've done it on at least 3 vehicles, and mulitple times on the F250.
to finish and clarify this subject, heat is a guaranteed killer of tires, but not the only killer. some that i've blown were old age, others may have been heat-damaged previously, others were severely overloaded, others may have just been random (if random exists).

now about that guy in the F250 with air springs, the frame was cracking on both sides around where the air springs bolted to it, which was right above the axle. in my opinion, the frame wasn't designed to take that kind of load in that area, and it failed from fatigue as a result. because of this, i'm leary of any helper springs that take the load and apply it to a section of the frame that didn't carry load beforehand.
that said, i've seen plenty of add-a-leafs that never had a problem, because they keep the force where its designed to go, unlike the guy with air springs.

mistaken ID, i'd never heard of 15" tires with a real weight rating like that. my car trailer sits on 14.5 mobile home axles, and its 8-plys are soon going away for at least 12 ply, or the heaviest thing the tire shop can get. all the rubber is pretty bad as it sits, so why not upgrade at the same time

we should all remember that weight ratings are as heavy as the manufacturer is willing to GUARANTEE that the truck can safely handle in good conditions. there is a margin of safety built into that, which is where you're trying to play.

now for that toyota you mentioned, i have to wonder. but there comes a point where a truck thats less than 4000# is no longer heavy enough to steer that backhoe (or whatever) he was towing.

 

Yup tires, curently mine are doing just fine, did a little math and with the bed empty I can load up to about 3500lbs of tongue weight before I have 8000lbs on my rear axle. Currently I don't have a trailer that could handle anything that would put that kinda weight on the tongue. But of course I started this cause I'm trailer shopping. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around pushing a rock thru a tire. I can only assume it was a betled radial, how did the rock get thru the belts, was it significantly over pressure?

The others are scarry, the ones with the tread that pealed off were they retreads? Were they heavily deformed under the weight?

RV_Tech take a chill pill, the point here is to gather as much annecdotal evidence as I can and some good stories. Of course these things are hard to predict, but steal is steal and rubber is rubber. And with so many trucks doing so much work, and so many of them on FTE I'd think we could gather some evidence and maybe tell a few stories at the same time.

Thinking about my hitch though and as it relates to my tires limits, I think I need to do a little work to it before I feel comfortable putting the kinda weight on it it would take to really challenge my tires, negating bed weight of course. The hitch itself, bolts attaching it, and frame back there just don't strike me as safe enough for that kinda weight. Nore do I think there even close to rated for it. Class 4 is generally 12500lbs trailer with 10% of that tongue so 1,250lbs tongue. Even if I put 2000lbs in the bed I still have 1500lbs left for the tongue weight before I put 8000lbs on the rear axle.

Looking back, that load on that Jeep was such a bad idea. It motivated me to box the frame, build a hell of a hitch and put a 14 bolt in it though. Anyway back to my rig. I got about a 14' wheel base and as much as 5 feet from rear axle to hitch ball. The leverage this puts on the truck it seams to me that I should do everything I can to minimize that. When I do hitch work any downsides to gettting it as tucked up under the bed as far forward as I can without putting the ball too far forward to clear the trailer tongue?

Josh, was all this with that semi-floater D60?

 

yes, every story about the F250 is on that poor semi-floater. its been through a lot.
none of the tires that peeled off were retreads. the only retreads i've ever had were a set i picked up off the side of a logging road, and they were cracked enough they never should have gone on my truck to start with, but i only had sidewall failures on those.
that one in the F150 was a steel belted radial, but as i mentioned, a very soft rubber. it was weird, i may not understand it, but i can testify that it happened.
did you read my thread last month about the one i blew on the van - date code was 5 years old, original tread still over 80%, and it just unpeeled most of the way around, just leaving a foot of tread still attached to the sidewall, but one helluva whip that tore things up!

if you put enough tongue weight on there to max out your rear axle, you'll have about 500 pounds left on your steer axle, and you'll have fun driving it at 20 MPH - and still have trouble steering thats part of why most heavy loads are on a 5th wheel or gooseneck, as you don't have the leverage screwing with you like that

 

Yeah eventually that is a achilles heal of any setup on a bumper hitch no matter how tough the rest of the truck. But it's not THAT bad, and there are ways to deal with it. With my long wheelbase and front heavy truck, doing the math, with a 14' wheelbase, 5' from axle to ball, and 3500 on the ball it will take 1250 off a front axle that has about 4000 on it empty. This can be reduced quite a bit if I shorten how much my hitch sticks out the back. I think I can take almost a foot off, with the axle to ball reduced to 4' 3500 on the ball only takes 1000 off the front axle. Toss in a load distributing hitch and I'm all good. If I was to ever take this to the extreme I'd move the rear axle back. With the rear axle back a foot 3500 on the ball takes only 700 off the front axle, and every pound left on the front axle is another freed up for the rear.

Just for kicks to only leave only 500 on the front axle with my 5' from axle to ball it would take 9800 on the ball which would put 16800 on the rear axle. I'd break off the hitch, break off the back of the truck, blow both rear tires, and have the pumpkin dragging on the ground LOOOONG before I reached that point. For fun and comparison lets consider if my truck was a short box reg cab. That would give me what about a 9 foot wheelbase and still 5' from rear axle to ball. On that setup 3500 on the ball would take 2000 off the front axle in a truck that likely would only have about 3000 on the front axle empty, now that would be a bad idea, talk about the tail wagging the dog.

Shoot what's the wheelbase and distance from axle to ball on your van?

 

Once, I towed a 6000 lb laundry machine on metal casters on the end of a chain wrapped around a frame rail of my rig. No problem.

Today, I don't even come close to a problem.