Absolutely, night and day difference. And I have first hand experience with 2 trucks and 2 different brand tuners with the same result.

 

Moved to the Computer Chips & Tuners forum.

 

I'm afraid not when it comes from me. I've always maintained shift on the fly devices as the culprits. Old or new. That would preclude their normal tuning lineup. It also seems to depend on what engine you are talking about as well. Mine is based off of 6.0 experience. Engines like the 7.3 have been tolerant of shift on the fly devices. Hell, DP is really well known for his 16 position chip for the 7.3. To my knowledge he doesn't sell one for the 6.0. I wonder why.

Does everyone have a problem with them? No, not everyone. Your chances are better then average at having a problem, but it doesn't mean that you will. You also have to keep in mind that your truck might have had an issue that was very small, to the point of not knowing it existed and the "tuner" brought it up to the for front. Did it really cause it? No, but it sure did expose the problem.

I can tell you personally of 7 people that have had trannies destroyed by the Juice line. Monitoring defuel points and all that crap isn't tuning. Those are just safety measures, nothing to do with tuning. Anything that intercepts and modifies signals without doing anything to the engine modules is not tuning. It really isn't. Now if you hook it up to the OBD II port and change your parameters there, that's something else, but hooking up everything under the hood, that's tricking the computer, not tuning it.

Depending on what you do with your truck, you may not notice an issue until much later. I got my tranny issues with my gauge showing that it was getting to temp quicker then normal in the winter. Burned direct clutch, but no issue other then temp raising too fast (didn't go beyond normal temp range even for winter either).

 

You're comparing apples to oranges with the "shift on the fly" devices. The older (up to the CS/CTS platform) Juice module was NOT a programmer or chip. It is simply an injection pressure fooling device. NOTHING MORE. The newest CS/CTS Juice modules allow programming changes for the transmission as well....but no engine tuning). The only reason they are "shift on the fly" comes down to the fact that it does nothing more than change resistance values on the signal line between the injection control pressure sensor and the powertrain control module.

Any "chip" that is purchased for a 7.3L truck will include all of the same tuning practices that go into a flash programmer (like the Evolution, Superchips, SCT, et al.) and most all modern multiple position chips are switchable with the engine running and the vehicle rolling down the road.

The reason that nobody offers true "shift on the fly" tuning for a 6.0L truck (or newer) is because there is no way possible to bypass the computer's internal memory with a piece of hardware (like the J3 port on the EEC-V for the 7.3L). The Banks modules and Juice modules are still "shift on the fly" though because of what I stated earlier. It's impossible to reflash the ECM/TCM/PCM (whatever) while the truck is running.

Exactly.


Here's where we need to clarify some things:

You need to realize that "canned" programming is designed for a stock truck. By stock, I mean NO modified injectors or transmission hard parts. This diatribe will ONLY discuss tuning for a STOCK TRUCK. Intakes, exhausts, drop-in turbochargers, etc. don't require any change in the tuning for a stock truck so therefore canned tuning will work for a lot of people. I can say for absolute certainty that the tuning that I write will be the same tuning for people who have "stock" trucks (and most "custom" tuning companies probably do the same thing also to save drive space). For example, if person "A" buys a particular choice of "standard calibrations" for a 2001 F250 automatic with a PCM code of PMT2 and person "B" buys the same "standard calibrations" for a 1999 F350 automatic with a PCM code of NVK2, they will both get EXACTLY THE SAME TUNES (based on a PMT1 strategy). So, can you say that I also sell "canned" tuning? I suppose. Now, these tunes are definitely different than any other tuning company working with 7.3L trucks be they "canned" tuning companies or "custom" tuning companies. Notwithstanding, if comparing tuning from an original Evolution (Game Boy style) to the available tuning for a stock 7.3L on the newest CS/CTS Evolution, there have been many advancements in how the tuning is carried out to improve driveability and durability. The newer Evo tuning is less aggressive in many aspects making for more friendly shift feel and accelerator pedal response than the older units. Moreover, it currently resembles most modern tuning that is used by many "custom" tuners out there. The main difference you will find between varied tuners' styles will boil down to how the truck owner perceives the driveability (shift feel, shift points, accelerator pedal sensitivity, noise, harshness, etc.) and what the owner expects.


As far as performance is concerned, tuning companies don't just arbitrarily make up 60, 80, 100, etc. horsepower tunes. They are all pretty darn good at making the advertised horsepower on stock injectors because horsepower on a diesel is based almost exclusively on fuel rate over a given RPM range. So, as far as ANY tuning is concerned, the ultimate power output is determined by the injector capacity and flow rate. No "custom" tuner out there will be able to make significantly more power (as in taking an appreciable amount of time off of a 1/4 mile run) than the "extreme" setting on most flash programmers or "canned" chips. Stock AD injectors (99-03) are usually limited to fuel rates capable of 100-120 HP over stock depending on the condition of the high pressure oil pump and that is IT. Obviously there are the "unicorn trucks" that will be able to make a little more than that (and there are also those that will fall short), but generally speaking, one can realistically expect a maximum horsepower number between 290-320 RWHP on stock injectors on tuning available from just about any tuning company. How the truck feels, smokes, or shifts up to that point is going to vary wildly between products/companies though.

That being said, out of the literally 11-12 different tuning products I have tried over the years (before doing my own tuning), my favorite (for when stock), has to be the original Superchips 1705 programmer. I have used it on all four flavors of 7.3L trucks and I have found that it does the best for what I look for in a truck. Believe it or not, it actually changes fewer things than most tuning I have looked at, but in my case, less is more. Is that to say that it's the best? Of course not. It just worked well for me and made the trucks exhibit the best well-rounded characteristics in terms of how I think a truck should run (and I am one picky SOB when it comes to how I think a truck should run and drive).

Conversely, there are a couple different tuning companies I would stay away from. I have looked at a lot of different stuff and I can say that a couple of them are kind of scary. Those companies will remain nameless, but they are also ones that have a less-than-stellar following anyway, so I wouldn't be telling anyone something they don't already know.

This is the exact problem when dealing with vehicle owners and different driving styles. For the sake of discussion, a 4R100 will die a fiery death with stock engine tuning given the right driving "technique"; if you're hard enough on it for a long enough time, it will break. Adding extra power into the mix only exasperates the situation by stressing hard parts even more when people turn their 4-ton trucks into street-racers.

Here's the kicker:
NOTHING ANY "TUNER" (be it the product or the person writing the calibrations) CAN DO will make the transmission "stronger". The best that we can do is help the transmission cope with higher horsepower input by adding pressure during a shift (to help with "burn time" by shortening the time that the shift occurs), adding pressure during steady-state driving (to minimize the chances of slippage by pressing the friction elements into the steels harder), and by quickening the torque converter clutch apply rate (on the SD trucks) to minimize the amount of time that there is slippage between the friction disk and the cover plate under high load. We can't do anything to keep the intermediate sprag from grenading (short of making the 1-2 shift less aggressive), keeping clutch teeth from stripping, thwarting twisted input shafts, or performing miracle tuning to fix an already "tired" transmission. If it's worn out, we can't do a "rebuild-in-a-can" to fix it. Hard parts replacement is the only way to make a transmission physically "stronger".....and a valve body is NOT going to make a transmission unbreakable. It simply does to pressures by mechanical means what most tuning companies do on an electronic control scale.

 

Bullydog triple dog tuner to my knowledge is the only tuner that is shift on the fly and is a tuner for the 6.0. It uses variable fueling tables to accomplish this. However, it is not a module, it iso a tuner.

 

It is, you're right. However, as you stated "It uses variable fueling tables to accomplish this.". I'm trying to remember how it's accomplished, but it's a VERY limited function download.

 

thx Cleatus

 

Finally on something that I can type from and not my cell phone.

I'm not following this logic.

The same reason that these devices don't truly tune the engine goes for the TCM as well.

There is no true tuning on either of the 3 truck modules from any inline device that I can find (6.0).

That is what makes these things "evil" on an engine like the 6.0 that is already within tight tolerances. Now the TS can handle more stress then the tranny behind the 7.3 (in stock form), but the computers on this engine all need tuning in the same manner.

Now everything that I'm talking about is only in relation to the 6.0. I'm not talking about any other engine then that.


Now why I would go against the "canned" tunes is that not everyone has good experiences with the stock tunes that come with these devices. I know when I had the Triple Dog, my truck hated the street and extreme tunes. It was fine in Tow. At least with custom tunes, you can get them to where the truck doesn't act up on you. With canned tunes, your screwed pretty much. Not much help with post purchase.

 

Edge Products| Product

"• NEW Ability to program your transmission to adjust Shift Points, Shift Firmness*, Speed Limiter, and Rev Limiter*"

Level T: Transmission Tune Only

The new CS/CTS Juice DOES plug into the OBDII port for datastream data (and transmission tuning) unlike the old ones that just intercepted sensor signals and displayed RPM, boost, and EGT. Oh, and the transmission portion of the tuning is not "shift on the fly".

 

Ok. Little confused here. If I'm reading this correctly, there is only 1 tune for the tranny which is Level T. How about for the others? The more aggressive the tune, the tranny has to act differently for each tune. As you said the tranny tuning isn't shift on the fly, so that means when you go from level 1 to level 5 you have to hook up and go through the motions of changing things for the tranny, effectively taking away from the novelty of the shift on the fly. Unless you keep the tranny settings for tow while you amp up to the extreme engine profile, which I wouldn't suggest, but hey.

Either that, or Level T is the only time you are able to make adjusts for the tranny. I wonder how many people are going to stay with that tune.

In either scenario, it really isn't the best thing, hugely inefficient in my mind unless I just have this all backwards.


If you already have to make adjustments for the tranny by hooking up to the OBDII port, then what is the point of keeping shift on the fly for the power settings? This also adds credence to the conclusion that Edge modules (remember I have only maintained that Edge modules were the cause, not the entire Edge product lineup) didn't play well with the TS, otherwise why add this function if their other method was "good enough"?


And I also have to wonder since they added this feature of hooking up to the OBD-II port for changing the tranny profile, why wouldn't they think it would be a good idea to make it that way for the engine profiles as well? Hell, if nothing else, use VFT like BullyDog does to achieve shift on the fly tuner.

 

You're over-thinking it.

By selecting "Level T", the device will tune the transmission. That tuning stays until programmed back to stock. The remainder of "switch on the fly" capability is performed the same as any other Juice module.

This is done for no other reason than to allow an advertised "switch on the fly" capability while still allowing the transmission to better accept the increased power.

 

So it is one tranny tune for all those power settings. That's not doing any good once you start getting to all those tunes on the fly.

You might have it tweaked for say, Level I, but once you get to Level III thru V, your tranny is screwed. That's why I took the BullyDog off my truck. Tow setting the tranny acted fine, but do the Street or for sure the Extreme settings and it shifted like crap. That can only be through improper tranny tuning to compensate for whatever else that the truck is dealing with.

So, yes the new Edge's atleast advertise that they do tranny tuning, but it doesn't look like they do tranny tuning across the spectrum of power settings that they off on their devices. Which I would argue that the device as a whole doesn't tune the tranny, because you have one tranny tune to deal with 5 levels of HP over stock (ranging from 25 HP to 120HP). They actually claim more then what they BullyDog did at the time that I got that tuner. If mine shifted like crap on BullyDog's Extreme setting, I would hate to feel what the Edge would do with an extra 30HP over BullyDog. Which more and more both of those devices are sounding a lot alike, at least with how they deal with the tranny aspect of it all.

Now, not everyone complains about how the trucks shift on those higher tunes with the BullyDog, however, I have to wonder if they really know how a tranny is supposed to shift or are they too busy getting a woody from how responsive their truck is now.

 

You're preaching to the choir though...

I am not a fan of inline modules either. I have zero affiliation with Edge or any other company that sells similar equipment.

I just don't like "blanket statements" about things.

 

I find that ironic considering both the OP of this thread and yourself made blanket statements.

The OP:


I have always maintained that it has been the inline fuel devices that are the problem and even with this so-called tranny tuning that they offer now, it is still going to be a problem, for the same reasons that I listed in my last couple of posts. Now they do offer tranny tuning now, but it wouldn't help across the power spectrum that they have available on their devices. Now, I don't like the other Edge devices much either, but I have different reasons for that.

I know Tylus knows me from the 6.0 forum, so I'm sure he is well aware of my posts. It would be one thing if he didn't frequent the 6.0 forum, but I've seen him in there, so I know he does.

Now your blanket statement is this:

Like I pointed out, BullyDog does. Now how good is it, safe etc, I would say it's right up there with the so-called tranny tuning of the new Edge devices. But the point is that it is offered on a tuning devices, regardless of how limited it is (very much like the tranny tuning of the Edge device, which is also limited).

 

Holy cow. Nitpick much?

You better highlight (make bold) the WHOLE phrase and try to call me a hypocrite. "True tuning" is NOT what this gone-awry discussion was about. Limited-function downloading was where the discussion was headed. There isn't any way possible to download an entire engine or transmission file without a reboot of the computer before and after the programming session....which means the engine cannot be running during that time (totally negates any ability for true switch on the fly tuning).

Notwithstanding, just because somebody's seen you post 10,261 times does not mean they "know" you. Could he pick you out of a police line up? The internet is a fine place for picking up bad advice and spending lots of time and money chasing problems (and throwing parts at them), but it's a horrible way to make "friends".

I'm bowing out of this conversation. It seems as of late people have had this unyielding desire to twist my words. Maybe I should use "text-speak", horrible grammar and spelling, and obscenities so I fit in with everyone else. Nah. I can't not be me.

Take care.