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Eldelbrock Performer Plus Lifter Failure in a 400?

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Old 08-02-2012, 08:19 AM
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Question Eldelbrock Performer Plus Lifter Failure in a 400?

Hey guys,

Just wondering if anyone has run into problems with the Edelbrock Lifters that came in the 2172 Performer Plus Cam Kit?

Started the truck up after a short drive to the LPS yesterday and had to limp home with a bad tick and a dead miss...

Pulled the passenger side valve cover to find a rocker/pushrod bouncing around on a collapsed/busted lifter.

Removed the lifter through the head and replaced it with used lifter from a Performer RPM kit for a 460.(Everything measured the same but the retainer looks better/srtonger)

So I'm wondering; can I expect more trouble with these lifters or was this a rare occurance?

Engine is in my daily driver '77 F-100 and has been dead reliable until yesterday...only has about 15,000 miles on it since the rebuild.

Might have something to do with my right foot? She'll hit 5500 on the tach pretty quick if you let her...

Cheers

Ryan
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:02 PM
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lifter failure?

was the lifter failure internal or did it damage the cam any? Been lots of lifter issue the past couple yrs. the engine oils of modern engines don't like the oil iron of ours. a zinc addative is a thing to read about and probably add in your oil changes. read up on zinc addative for engine oil good read. things are changing but not talking about it much to the general public. make sure your rocker arm isn't damged or bent. make sure your rocker arm boss isn't worn to much and allowing to much clearance and not compressing hyd lifter. check/compare pushrods on length.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wyoming4x4 View Post
was the lifter failure internal or did it damage the cam any? Been lots of lifter issue the past couple yrs. the engine oils of modern engines don't like the oil iron of ours. a zinc addative is a thing to read about and probably add in your oil changes. read up on zinc addative for engine oil good read. things are changing but not talking about it much to the general public. make sure your rocker arm isn't damged or bent. make sure your rocker arm boss isn't worn to much and allowing to much clearance and not compressing hyd lifter. check/compare pushrods on length.
The lifter went internally...externally you couldn't tell it from a new one... I've been running Shell Rotella-T 15w40 and EOS since the first start up.

The metering disc in the lifter broke into several pieces and dropped down and plugged the oil passage/check valve...
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:24 PM
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interesting!

haven't ran a hyd lifter in a while. been rollers and solids for the past several yrs. wondering what caused it to break internal. if oil seal from lifter to pushrod to rocker was broken due to rocker arm or the rocker boss being worn and then basically pounding the hyd lifter like a hammer and breaking internal? just trying to troubleshoot from the computor. definelty look at all componets involved before assembling. working out of town and stuck in a motel room and not a engine nowhere to play with.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wyoming4x4 View Post
wondering what caused it to break internal. if oil seal from lifter to pushrod to rocker was broken due to rocker arm or the rocker boss being worn and then basically pounding the hyd lifter like a hammer and breaking internal? just trying to troubleshoot from the computor. definelty look at all componets involved before assembling. working out of town and stuck in a motel room and not a engine nowhere to play with.
I hear ya...that's what's bothering me...everything looks/feels/sounds right now but I didn't measure anything as far as tolerances go as I though thats what the oil/hydraulic part of the lifter took care of...

It's a hydraulic flat tappet lifter so I just tightened the rocker to spec, run her for a bit...lots of oil flowing/nice and quiet...cleaned her up and put a new valve cover gasket on and buttoned her back up.

I'm hoping it was just a faulty lifter...but it's going to be in the back of my mind now...
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:04 PM
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I hate to tell you this, but if the lifters are toast, your cam is probably toast too.

Look at your lifter faces where they interface with the cam - if they are concave (dished) your cam is destroyed.

Don't keep running it if that is the case - there is metal in the engine now, and it will only continue to gall your bearings and destroy your cam journals.

I know this all because I just went through it, and am now doing a full rebuild.

The exact same thing happened; I was on the interstate, cruising at 70 MPH...I wasn't even accelerating, steady RPM, when I heard a tick tick tick clang clang clang...I opened up the passenger side valve cover and cylinder number seven had two bent pushrods - both intake and exhaust.

I replaced ONLY the two offending lifters and the bent pushrods at the time.

Damage:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.


I STRONGLY suggest you replace the cam, unless you can verify with certainty it is still within specification.

Since I initially replaced only the two offending lifters and push-rods, the new ones were wiped out again (since the cam was damaged) in a very short time period.

I had to have my crank ground .010/.010 to remove the damage - nothing major, but an added expense nonetheless, and I also needed to replace my oil pump, as the gears were galled due to the metal flowing through the system.

If you have to go with a full rebuild, consider parts sourced from Tim Meyer Inc. - he really knows his stuff on these engines and has been very helpful.

DanLee on here is a great resource as well.

Shane
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78 Ford LTD: Ford 400 Bored out .030 - 408 CI, Edelbrock #2171 Intake Manifold, Edelbrock #1805 650 CFM Thunder AVS Carb, Edelbrock #8844 water pump, TMeyer spec KB2344 pistons, Aussie Cleveland 302C "Quench" TMeyer heads, Custom Comp Hyd Roller Cam (216 / 224 @.050", 108LSA), Lunati Roller lifters, Scorpion Roller Rockers. Got M? More is better. Mods in Garage
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:02 PM
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I just got off the phone with Edelbrock.

They told me that if the camshaft and lifter set was any older than one year, they would not warranty it.

I was hoping to get a replacement to recoup some of my investment.

Of course, Edelbrock blamed my engine builder and said my pushrods were too long.

He stated that the bent pushrods were evidence of the improper length.

I'll never know the truth since I didn't build it myself.

This time will be different.
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78 Ford LTD: Ford 400 Bored out .030 - 408 CI, Edelbrock #2171 Intake Manifold, Edelbrock #1805 650 CFM Thunder AVS Carb, Edelbrock #8844 water pump, TMeyer spec KB2344 pistons, Aussie Cleveland 302C "Quench" TMeyer heads, Custom Comp Hyd Roller Cam (216 / 224 @.050", 108LSA), Lunati Roller lifters, Scorpion Roller Rockers. Got M? More is better. Mods in Garage
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:43 PM
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Hey Shane,

Thanks for the response... Thankfully I don't have the same problem as you...

I just had one single lifter fail internally; the lifter face where it meets the cam had no visable/measurable wear.

The oil metering disc inside my lifter broke, dropped down and plugged the oil passage/lifter.

My main concern was that if one lifter failed are the others going to fail?

I spoke to my engine builder and they figure it was just a faulty lifter; hope they are right.

I was told to use Shell Rotella-T 15w40 and EOS in my engine right from day one to prevent the type of wear/failure you describe above.

The new convential oils don't have the lubrication/wear reduction elements that these engines need.

I'm sorry for your loss...

Cheers

Ryan
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recoil77 View Post
Hey Shane,

Thanks for the response... Thankfully I don't have the same problem as you...

I just had one single lifter fail internally; the lifter face where it meets the cam had no visable/measurable wear.

The oil metering disc inside my lifter broke, dropped down and plugged the oil passage/lifter.

My main concern was that if one lifter failed are the others going to fail?

I spoke to my engine builder and they figure it was just a faulty lifter; hope they are right.

I was told to use Shell Rotella-T 15w40 and EOS in my engine right from day one to prevent the type of wear/failure you describe above.

The new convential oils don't have the lubrication/wear reduction elements that these engines need.

I'm sorry for your loss...

Cheers

Ryan
I'm turning a negative into a positive...My new build will be exactly what I have always wanted it to be, but couldn't build the last time around because proper pistons were not available.

Now, with Tim Meyer having addressed this engine, I will get exactly what I want, plus a full roller setup to boot.

The guy that built my engine the last time had 20+ years of engine building experience. He used to build dragsters and muscle car engines.

He is no stranger to a proper build, and although I cannot verify that everything was 100%, it chaps me that Edelbrock insists that he used pushrods of an improper length.

If that was the case, would I not have experienced problems in more cylinders than just number seven? Would not all push-rods installed in my engine have been the same length (I could actually go look, I saved all the carnage).

I need to look into proper lubricants; I used regular dinosaur oil for initial break-in (I believe it was Castrol GTX) and then I switched to Mobil 1 at about 3,000 miles.

Perhaps the Mobil 1 doesn't have enough zinc for this old led sled motor...I'll be asking Tim Meyer his opinion as well as others. Initially I'll use some ZDDP oil additive to insure adequate zinc and phosphorous during break-in, then I'll need to decide whether to keep running it after I transition to whatever long-term oil I choose.

I am glad your cam survived; hopefully it was just an odd lifter issue...but since mine did it too, for whatever reason, there may be a trend here.

Hopefully others will chime in so we can get an accurate feel for whether or not the lifters may be at issue.

Shane
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78 Ford LTD: Ford 400 Bored out .030 - 408 CI, Edelbrock #2171 Intake Manifold, Edelbrock #1805 650 CFM Thunder AVS Carb, Edelbrock #8844 water pump, TMeyer spec KB2344 pistons, Aussie Cleveland 302C "Quench" TMeyer heads, Custom Comp Hyd Roller Cam (216 / 224 @.050", 108LSA), Lunati Roller lifters, Scorpion Roller Rockers. Got M? More is better. Mods in Garage
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:12 PM
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If I had went with a set of Tim's pistons when I was building mine I probably would have a bit more power...but I couldn't really ask for a better working/driveable set up as it is.

Have to run a minimum of 91 octane gas the way my timing is set now so if I went with his flat top pistons I'd likely have to run octane booster.

I had my block magnifluxed, they sonic checked, bored .060 over, line bored, cam bearings, decked .010, crank trued/turned .010/.010, rods reconditioned, and installed MALLE .060 pistons, heads were totally done over, .010 planed off, bronze guides, ported, 3 angle grind on the valves, Edelbrock 2172 Cam and Lifters, Double Roller Timing Set, Edelbrock 2171 Intake, 650 Holley DP, Hedman 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers, Pro Comp HEI Distributor....etc,etc...

Had a C-6 built for it and she's got a 9" with a 3.08 Limited Slip putting the power to the ground now.

She's embarrassed quite a few 'Young Fella's' with their hat's on backwards at the stop light...
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recoil77 View Post
If I had went with a set of Tim's pistons when I was building mine I probably would have a bit more power...but I couldn't really ask for a better working/driveable set up as it is.

Have to run a minimum of 91 octane gas the way my timing is set now so if I went with his flat top pistons I'd likely have to run octane booster.

I had my block magnifluxed, they sonic checked, bored .060 over, line bored, cam bearings, decked .010, crank trued/turned .010/.010, rods reconditioned, and installed MALLE .060 pistons, heads were totally done over, .010 planed off, bronze guides, ported, 3 angle grind on the valves, Edelbrock 2172 Cam and Lifters, Double Roller Timing Set, Edelbrock 2171 Intake, 650 Holley DP, Hedman 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers, Pro Comp HEI Distributor....etc,etc...

Had a C-6 built for it and she's got a 9" with a 3.08 Limited Slip putting the power to the ground now.

She's embarrassed quite a few 'Young Fella's' with their hat's on backwards at the stop light...
Sounds like a nice build for sure!

I once dispatched a Firebird with a screaming hood chicken sticker with my LTD. Needless to say they were astonished a sled as big as mine got out of its own way.
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78 Ford LTD: Ford 400 Bored out .030 - 408 CI, Edelbrock #2171 Intake Manifold, Edelbrock #1805 650 CFM Thunder AVS Carb, Edelbrock #8844 water pump, TMeyer spec KB2344 pistons, Aussie Cleveland 302C "Quench" TMeyer heads, Custom Comp Hyd Roller Cam (216 / 224 @.050", 108LSA), Lunati Roller lifters, Scorpion Roller Rockers. Got M? More is better. Mods in Garage
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:45 PM
 
 
 
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