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  #16  
Old 06-12-2012, 04:08 PM
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Thanks for the info. I'm not opening my system. It looks as if there is something in the system with maybe a small leak. There is pressure when I push in the shader valve so something is holding. I can't get my gauges hooked up just yet as I'm waiting on a port adapter.

Stupid question. Which is the high side and which is the low?

Lastly, Has anyone heard or enviro-safe refrigerant? They make an r12 compatible product I had found when I googled about r12. Any thoughts?
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  #17  
Old 06-12-2012, 05:23 PM
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The low side has the larger threaded connection (usually located on the drier/accumulator but there could be a connection at the compressor).
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:35 PM
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There is NO such thing as a drop in or top off replacement, no matter what you may hear. Nothing can be mixed, the chemicals are not compatible. It all requires a retrofit, seperate machines, fittings, etc. That is part of the EPA ruling on replacement refrigerants. And envirosafe products are also highy flammable.
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  #19  
Old 06-12-2012, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archion View Post
For a/c oil, it is 8oz of either Ester oil or the newer universal PAG oil, for the entire system, but break it up into at least three places so it is not all in one lump so that it blows seals out, I put ~ 3oz in the compressor, and split the rest between the accumulator and the condenser.

The system must be placed under a vacuum for ~30 minutes to pull moisture out. Then shut the valves and make sure the system does not lose vacuum. I let is sit for @ 10 minutes or 1 beer, depending on the mood.
I hope it's okay to throw you some more questions.

1. Which would be better, PAG or Ester for a system that consists of entirely new parts?

2. If the oil is added to the system then a vacuum is pulled to get the moisture out, does it pull the oil out that had just been put in the system?

3. I see all these cans of R134A that say they have oil in the can too, should those be avoided if 8oz. has already been added to the system?
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  #20  
Old 06-12-2012, 08:20 PM
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Archion.Uberpimp PartsGuyMatt mvose OVC Archion
No problem at all.

1.With a new compressor and a clean system, go with the Pag. If the store does not have the universal, you want low viscosity, PAG46.

2.The oil is too heavy to get sucked out on its own, it would need to be blended with the 134 first, and even then most of it remains in the system.

3. Yes, avoid the oil included r134a, you do not want to over oil the system. This time of year, you can usually find a good deal at big lots. The last two years it's been 8 bucks a can.
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  #21  
Old 06-12-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sw1tchfoot View Post
I hope it's okay to throw you some more questions.

1. Which would be better, PAG or Ester for a system that consists of entirely new parts?

2. If the oil is added to the system then a vacuum is pulled to get the moisture out, does it pull the oil out that had just been put in the system?

3. I see all these cans of R134A that say they have oil in the can too, should those be avoided if 8oz. has already been added to the system?
Yes, those are good questions, I am curious to the response myself. On the reading I have done, you have to use the ester or the pag, and both cannot be mixed together.

My wife's Honda has PAG in it, so I have to go with and keep the PAG. All the retro-fit 134a kits I have used had the cans of refrigerant with the oil already in them, and it was the ester oil.

From what I understand, the old oil that was used with the original r12 will not mix with the new 134a, and will just "lay" in the system and do no harm, just take up a little space, which is why the "stick it in and go" works with most of the old cars(after you pull a vacuum on the system).

But if you have a car with PAG, you should not use ester in it, I forget why though. I used some of the refrigerant in my wife's car that had a "stop leak" in it, and asked the counter guy if it was compatible with a system that had PAG in it, and he didn't really know. But I used it anyway, and it seems to be working well so far.

But I would be curious if anyone has more info on the different oils and their compatibility.

As far as question #2, if you have a lot of flow in the system, it can drag some oil out. But the vacuum pump doesn't have a lot of flow to it, so you will lose little oil. If the system is under pressure, and you open the schrader valve and really let the refrigerant flow out at a high rate, then yes it will drag a lot of the oil out with it.

What a I know about question 3. You need to sort of keep track of how much oil you have put in, and if you lose a little bit, how much to put back in. In the retro-fit kits, they give you two cans of oil/refrigerant, and you put both in usually, and it seems to be enough. If later on you find you need to replace the compressor, then take it out, pour out the oil, and estimate and try to put that much back in the compressor. If you get too much oil in the system, it's my understanding it will affect the efficiency of the system and it will not cool as well as it should.
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  #22  
Old 06-12-2012, 08:36 PM
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Ester and Pag are ok if mixed a little in a system . Pag and and mineral oil become corrosive. Ester and mineral oil can cohabitate safely in a retro fitted system which is why retro kits originally came with ester.
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Last edited by Archion; 06-12-2012 at 09:11 PM. Reason: 1D10T
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  #23  
Old 06-13-2012, 07:15 AM
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Thanks again.
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  #24  
Old 06-13-2012, 12:08 PM
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Brandon Harrison
If this hasnt been mentioned up to this point then good, if it has then I am sorry for repeating it.When vacuuming a system down pull it down until you get about 30-40 lbs on the gauge.Shut the pump down and let it sit for 20-30 minutes. You want to see the system hold the vacuum for a little bit before you start throwing expensive refrigerant in it. This wont show some leaks because the system will pressure up to 300 psi when the compressor is running and it puts the pressure on in the opposite direction. However, if you have a leak bad enough to show with the vacuum then it certainly needs to be addressed before charging.
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  #25  
Old 06-13-2012, 12:31 PM
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You may be reading your gauges wrong, but if your only sucking it down to 30-40 psi, then it's never going to work right, or take in the needed charge. You need to pull it to -28" in the low side gauge and hold it there for 30 minutes. Then close the valves and check to see if it loses vacuum.
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  #26  
Old 09-20-2012, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archion View Post
My center vent temp in actual usage @ 55 degrees on an 80 degree day.
What????? That's horrible. It should be blowing 35-40* within one minute after start up.

A properly working system should pull at least 45* off the cabin air in ONE SINGLE PASS through the evaporator coil, or there is something seriously wrong. Regardless if this is a R12 conversion to 134 or a true factory 134 system. All mine pull 50-60.

Blows VERY COLD on HI fan on a thermometer 98+ day. A couple days were heat indexes of 110*.
40* vent actually hurts.

Here's my vehicle
hot start after sitting 5 hours @ 98* ambient direct sunlight
123* cabin temp/ vent temp
on HI fan
vent 72* in one minute
57 in two minutes
53 in 3 minutes
50 in 4 minutes, not yet exceeded 35 mph.
40 in 6 minutes, now moving 55 on the highway.

On August 03, 2011, the local record was 111* ambient and the vent temp/ HI fan was LESS THAN 35* after 7 minutes down the highway..... with the cabin temp control blocked to see how cold it would actually get. It made ICE. Unblocked the temp control and it went to 43* and stayed there, with no ice.

Ford CCOT system
Variable Orifice Valve, 4 seasons #38902
ES12a Industrial refrigerant. (much colder than 134)

As the Texans say, "It ain't braggin if ya actually do it."
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  #27  
Old 09-20-2012, 08:02 PM
Gordon Shumway Gordon Shumway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archion View Post
There is NO such thing as a drop in or top off replacement, no matter what you may hear. Nothing can be mixed, the chemicals are not compatible. It all requires a retrofit, seperate machines, fittings, etc. That is part of the EPA ruling on replacement refrigerants. And envirosafe products are also highy flammable.
#1
Flammable is a red herring.

HC refrigerant is actually less flammable than 134, check the EPA and MSDS.ES is 50 state accepted by the EPA.
Some states have local ordinances against hydrocarbon refrigerants cooling motor vehicle cabins.

Even compressed air or carbon dioxide are flammable if you mix 8 oz of atomized refrigerant oil and pressurize it to 200 psi. and turn it lose into a flame.

Several million vehicles world wide use HCs with zero, none, nada, confirmed reports of system fires. period. The only ones that burned were deliberately burned just like the truck gas tank blow up thing.

R12 burns and produces the poisonous green fosgene gas of WWI fame.
R134 burns and produces poisonous hydrogen fluoride gas.
HCs burn and produce NO poison gas, it just burns.
If you were in a fire, which would you choose?

#2
Of course separate AC machinery is necessary, just as with R12 and R134.

#3
YES, True drop-in does exist for both R12 systems and the non-EPA-regulated R134 systems.

#4
As far as "sham retrofits".... we're 18 years into this and real R12 is virtually gone and R134 is on phase out for the new flammable HFO1234yf in the 2013 cars, who actually cares if you slap fittings on and fill er up with HCs?

Just passing on the facts and my opinions. Bravo HCs.
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  #28  
Old 09-20-2012, 08:10 PM
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Thats cool, I will not run an alternative, non oem approved refrigerant, especially one as flammable as ES12a, 65/35 mix of propane and isobutane, no thanks. I hope you never let anyone service it and contaminate their machine.

I would probably have gotten better results with a late model condensor and a variable o-tube, but I didn't have one in stock when I did mine. Also I was low at the time I found out before Carlisle, I only drive the truck a handful of times out of the year.

Also, welcome to the forums, try in the future not to blast people in your first posts, it can be considered rude.
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:06 PM
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william.a.vose
Gordon, I don't know about you, but, I have been working on both automotive and home refrigeration systems for around 50 years. I am a certified mobile refrigeration mechanic. My truck will freeze you out in a very short time. Even with the carpet out in 100 degree weather with right at 100% RH it would stay comfortable. I have updated to 1) a 1994-96 evaporator, 2) a 1996 compressor and 3) a 1994-96 condensor. The pre-94 condensors were single pass, the later ones are multipass for better efficiency. The 94-96 evaporator is larger for greater cooling also.

I will not use propane or any of the other flammable refrigerants in any vehicle I own. Yes I am aware that if you burn R12 it generates phosgene, I worked in a laboratory for 30 years. The hazard isn't from a big fire, it's from a small leak mixing with air and creating an explosive mixture. One spark (cigarette, butane lighter) boom.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 85lebaront2 View Post
Gordon, I don't know about you, but, I have been working on both automotive and home refrigeration systems for around 50 years. I am a certified mobile refrigeration mechanic. My truck will freeze you out in a very short time. Even with the carpet out in 100 degree weather with right at 100% RH it would stay comfortable. I have updated to 1) a 1994-96 evaporator, 2) a 1996 compressor and 3) a 1994-96 condensor. The pre-94 condensors were single pass, the later ones are multipass for better efficiency. The 94-96 evaporator is larger for greater cooling also.

I will not use propane or any of the other flammable refrigerants in any vehicle I own. Yes I am aware that if you burn R12 it generates phosgene, I worked in a laboratory for 30 years. The hazard isn't from a big fire, it's from a small leak mixing with air and creating an explosive mixture. One spark (cigarette, butane lighter) boom.
Certainly a proper system will cool 50* delta easily.
In my experience a system such as a 2000 CrownVic will cool 14* cooler with ES Industrial than with 134 on a 98* ambient day. Back to back tests 1 hr apart. 134 properly installed as per Robinair.

Most people want to save money and fight a losing battle trying to be cool with a poor or worn out system. IF you are cool enough, you will forget the price.

An OEM manufacturer in Australia is now installing HCs.

Modern vehicles (30+ years) have NO refrigerant connections INSIDE the passenger compartment. (Because of the poison gas thingie)

The only way refrigerant could get into the passenger compartment is through a corrosion hole (HCs are non-corrosive), or a violent wreck. Studies have shown that in over 1,000 vehicles checked that ZERO passenger compartment punctures were located in any survivable wreck.

At the risk of belaboring this point, the entire contents of a HC system dumped into the average passenger car compartment is several times too lean of a mixture to cause any fire or explosion.

Here we have about 70 days of 95*+ temps. And a couple weeks of triple digits.

HCs are legal here (and safe IMO), and I choose to use them. That is no reflection on any of you or your freedom of choice.

May you freeze your butts off. LOL.

Last edited by Gordon Shumway; 09-20-2012 at 11:33 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:36 PM
 
 
 
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