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Old 06-07-2012, 02:36 PM
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DiMora's 400 build - part deux

Hello gentlemen,

This thread will seek your advice concerning my re-build of the heads, cam and valvetrain.

I haven't been on here in a while. The car has been sitting in TN at my Grandmother's place, and I brought it back home to Atlanta.

It has had a few issues. It started with an overheat. I originally had the engine "professionally" pulled by a local shop and then rebuilt by my friend. My friend did a good job on the rebuild, but the local shop installed the lower radiator hose spring backwards, and spring got sucked into my Edelbrock Performer water pump, causing the lower hose to crush on inlet suction, creating water starvation and an overheat.

That was one issue.

A second issue, cause unknown, was both push-rods bent at cylinder number 7.

I replaced both pushrods and both lifters (used assembly lube, followed proper break-in with a 20 inute run immediately after start, varying RPM between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM.

The cam to hydraulic lifter interface at cylinder 7 is totally trashed, lifters are concave, and I am certain the lobe at #7 on the cam is trashed. So...a new cam and lifters are in order.

As best I can tell, the lower half (short-block) is all fine.

So...let's get on to the re-build:

Vehicle: 1978 Ford LTD Landau 2 door
Ford 400 bored .030 over to 408 cubic inches
Fully balanced and line honed
Edelbrock 2171 Intake
Edelbrock 1405 600 CFM carb
Edelbrock 8844 water pump
Edelbrock 7821 Double-roller timing set
Pistons: Federal Mogul 427P / Sterling STL-427 P30 pistons (Same thing) 4.030" diameter, 10CC dish
Aussie 302 Cleveland 2V "Quench" heads, 62CC chamber (maybe 59CC; I read conflicting numbers on various sites - anyone know how to tell for sure?)
C6 transmission
Static compression before cam selection I calculated to be 10.028:1


Old cam with the "failed" build was an Edelbrock 2172 with Edelbrock matched lifters. Specs were:

@.050": 204 intake 214 Exhaust
LSA 112
Intake centerline 107
Lift @ Valve: .484 IN /.510 EX
Lift @ Cam: .280 IN / .295 EX

The above cam had lots of pinging and detonation, Comp told me it was a poor choice with the Aussie heads and that 10:1 compression I was running.

Where I need the forums advice is concerning a new cam for the re-build. Cam will be custom ground and full hydraulic roller, as well as new hydraulic roller rockers.

Supporting hardware will be
  • Scorpion SCP 1024BL roller rockers (pedestal mount) - from Tim Meyer
  • Comp cams hydraulic roller lifters (8931-16)
  • Comp springs (924-16)
  • Comp Retainers (741-16)
  • Comp Valve locks (611-16)
  • Comp Teflon valve seals (503-16)
  • ...and shorter push-rods. (to be ordered from Tim Meyer)


Here is the crux of the biscuit if you are skimming:

How does this cam look to you experts who know how to read a cam and / or have desktop dyno software. This grind was recommended to me by Comp cams.

SPEC CARD
PART #: 32-000-8
ENGINE: FORD 351C-400M
GRINDING INSTRUCTIONS 1
"" "" 2
"" "" 3
GRIND #: FC 3345F /3345F HR112.0
SPC INST 1:
SPC INST 2:
J. DIAM: STD INT EXH
VALVE ADJUSTMENT HYD HYD
GROSS VALVE LIFT .520 .520
DURATION @ .006
TAPPET LIFT 282 282
VALVE TIMING OPEN CLOSE
@ .050 INT 7 43
EXH 51 1-
SPECS FOR CAM INST. @ 108.0 CENTERLINE ASSIGNED TO PRODU
INT EXH
DURATION @ .050 230.00 230.00
LOBE LIFT .301 .301
LOBE SEPARATION 112.0
FIRING ORDER STD
ROCKER ARM RATIO 1.73 1.73


Does that look reasonable? Can anyone calculate dynamic compression with that cam? Can you old timers "look" at the numbers and get a feel for it?

Thanks, guys!

Shane
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78 Ford LTD: Ford 400 Bored out .030 - 408 CI, Edelbrock #2171 Intake Manifold, Edelbrock #1805 650 CFM Thunder AVS Carb, Edelbrock #8844 water pump, TMeyer spec KB2344 pistons, Aussie Cleveland 302C "Quench" TMeyer heads, Custom Comp Hyd Roller Cam (216 / 224 @.050", 108LSA), Lunati Roller lifters, Scorpion Roller Rockers. Got M? More is better. Mods in Garage
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:16 PM
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I don't like that piston. You should have a Zero deck piston to take advantage of Quench with the Aussie heads. The 427P is a stock replacement piston and sits at least 0.067" down the hole. See Tim Meyer for the right piston for those heads.

The dynamic CR is about 7.7:1. That is conservative enough, but you should have Quench. Your old DCR was about 9.2:1. It's no wonder that it pinged.

My other question is about the cam. Is the cam a Roller Retro-fit or a Custom Billet cam that uses Tie-bar roller lifters? The Roller Retro-fit cams are Reduced Base-circle cams. My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed. Now I have a Comp-cams Custom Billet Cam with Lunati Tie-bar lifters.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danlee View Post
I don't like that piston. You should have a Zero deck piston to take advantage of Quench with the Aussie heads. The 427P is a stock replacement piston and sits at least 0.067" down the hole. See Tim Meyer for the right piston for those heads.

The dynamic CR is about 7.7:1. That is conservative enough, but you should have Quench. Your old DCR was about 9.2:1. It's no wonder that it pinged.

My other question is about the cam. Is the cam a Roller Retro-fit or a Custom Billet cam that uses Tie-bar roller lifters? The Roller Retro-fit cams are Reduced Base-circle cams. My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed. Now I have a Comp-cams Custom Billet Cam with Lunati Tie-bar lifters.
Thank you for your feedback, Danlee...if I have to pull the engine to swap pistons, I may do so. I'll consult with Tim to see if I can meet my goals with the pistons that are already in there. They have a 10CC dish.

It seems there is so much more knowledge (and of course those new pistons) out there since I did my initial build. When I did my initial build, I purposely went with stock replacements since I had read that Aussie heads were a direct bolt-on if one had OEM pistons in a 351M or 400 and that they provided a proper amount of quench...at the time I built, guys were using Badger flat-tops, if I recall correctly, to raise CR if they did NOT have Aussie heads. Perhaps a thinner head gasket can give me the quench I need? Again, I'll check with Tim on that.

To answer your query, the cam grind is a custom ground billet cam with Comp 8931-16 Pro Magnum hydraulic roller lifters:

Click the image to open in full size.

Since I haven't ordered the cam yet, I can change it to a different grind if need be once a final decision is made on the pistons. I'll keep this thread updated as I find out more information.
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78 Ford LTD: Ford 400 Bored out .030 - 408 CI, Edelbrock #2171 Intake Manifold, Edelbrock #1805 650 CFM Thunder AVS Carb, Edelbrock #8844 water pump, TMeyer spec KB2344 pistons, Aussie Cleveland 302C "Quench" TMeyer heads, Custom Comp Hyd Roller Cam (216 / 224 @.050", 108LSA), Lunati Roller lifters, Scorpion Roller Rockers. Got M? More is better. Mods in Garage
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:03 AM
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I had another crazy idea...for about $300...I can get my Edelbrock Performer converted to E85 Ethanol.

Now, you need to flow about 40% more fuel with ethanol, but it is cheaper...so cost-wise it may be a wash vs. 93 octane...and I could run high compression...and at ~105 octane detonation probably wouldn't be an issue. Intriguing!
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78 Ford LTD: Ford 400 Bored out .030 - 408 CI, Edelbrock #2171 Intake Manifold, Edelbrock #1805 650 CFM Thunder AVS Carb, Edelbrock #8844 water pump, TMeyer spec KB2344 pistons, Aussie Cleveland 302C "Quench" TMeyer heads, Custom Comp Hyd Roller Cam (216 / 224 @.050", 108LSA), Lunati Roller lifters, Scorpion Roller Rockers. Got M? More is better. Mods in Garage
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:47 AM
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There is no working with those pistons, they are just way too far below deck to begin with. There had to be a reason that cam went out. Was the preload set correctly, push rod length checked, retainer to guide clearance checked, rockers checked for binding in the fulcrum etc, did you use a cam break in additive, were you adding a ZDDP additive to your oil after the break in oil. Almost no off the shelve oils have enough zinc & pho in them anymore, even the diesel oils have been reduced to the point that they are pretty much no good anymore for a flat cam.
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danlee View Post
I don't like that piston. You should have a Zero deck piston to take advantage of Quench with the Aussie heads. The 427P is a stock replacement piston and sits at least 0.067" down the hole. See Tim Meyer for the right piston for those heads.

The dynamic CR is about 7.7:1. That is conservative enough, but you should have Quench. Your old DCR was about 9.2:1. It's no wonder that it pinged.

My other question is about the cam. Is the cam a Roller Retro-fit or a Custom Billet cam that uses Tie-bar roller lifters? The Roller Retro-fit cams are Reduced Base-circle cams. My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed. Now I have a Comp-cams Custom Billet Cam with Lunati Tie-bar lifters.
Dan, in your opinion is it worth the roller switch in a 335 ? Is there going to be a seat of the pants very noticable gain from a good flat cam for just street use ? When you add up the expence is it worth it ?
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark a. View Post
There is no working with those pistons, they are just way too far below deck to begin with. There had to be a reason that cam went out. Was the preload set correctly, push rod length checked, retainer to guide clearance checked, rockers checked for binding in the fulcrum etc, did you use a cam break in additive, were you adding a ZDDP additive to your oil after the break in oil. Almost no off the shelve oils have enough zinc & pho in them anymore, even the diesel oils have been reduced to the point that they are pretty much no good anymore for a flat cam.
Thanks for your input, Mark...to answer you directly, I do not know. I had it built by a friend that has done lots and lots of pushrod V-8's, and I figured he knew precisely what needed to be done and I never checked anything myself. The engine came back to my fully buttoned-up with the oil pump primed; all I had to do was instal lit in the car, add fluids, and break it in. I had that install done as well as I was working a lot back then and had no time to mess with it. On initial start I immediately went to 2,000 to 3,000 RPM and varied the RPM for 20 minutes as I was told to do. It is interesting to note that all lifters look great except for #7 piston.

This time around, I will be doing it myself and checking everything. I have a couple books, and of course the internet is now an awesome resource...I'll be posting here for wisdom from you guys.

The engine was broken in with assembly lube on all the cam lobes, lifters, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark a. View Post
Dan, in your opinion is it worth the roller switch in a 335 ? Is there going to be a seat of the pants very noticable gain from a good flat cam for just street use ? When you add up the expence is it worth it ?
It is too late for that decision, as I already have all the parts mentioned above for a roller setup. All that is left is do decide if the pistons MUST come out in favor of something with more quench, and to select a proper custom hydraulic roller-lifter cam grind. If I need new slugs, they will come from Tim Meyer.

I may outsource the head-build and machining to Tim Meyer if he is interested...I sent him an e-mail yesterday.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark a. View Post
Dan, in your opinion is it worth the roller switch in a 335 ? Is there going to be a seat of the pants very noticable gain from a good flat cam for just street use ? When you add up the expence is it worth it ?
It's worth the piece of mind. The HR cams do not require all of that babying during the break-in period.

You can also get faster ramp rates, and that translates to longer duration with reduced overlap.

Other than these items, it's kind of subjective whether It's worth while to switch.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:41 PM
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Dimora,

Your old setup would have been OK, if you had used a longer duration cam with a later IVC. Of course, it would have so much overlap that the motor would have low vacuum, and poor low end torque. The Edelbrock stuff is for an otherwise stock motor.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danlee View Post
Dimora,

Your old setup would have been OK, if you had used a longer duration cam with a later IVC. Of course, it would have so much overlap that the motor would have low vacuum, and poor low end torque. The Edelbrock stuff is for an otherwise stock motor.
That's why I am wondering if I can use my existing pistons and heads (well, with the aforementioned head rebuild for a full roller setup) and simply go with a custom ground cam.

Do you think my other Edelbrock stuff (intake and carb) is alright for this build?

I find it all confusing since the virtues of Aussie quench heads simply bolted to a stock 351M or 400 have been touted for years (and thus my original decision to go with stock pistons with 10CC dish)...but obviously I erred when it came time for a cam selection.

The bottom line is now that I have committed to a full roller setup, I need to consult with someone like Tim Meyer so that there is no more guessing and I get a solid build. If that means pulling the motor and doing a piston swap, then that is what I'll do. I don't want to re-build this one again.

I know my carb and intake should be fine...the wildcards here are the pistons and the cam grind. Cams are definitely not my area of expertise.

I can bake a cake, but I am no chef. I definitely need to follow a recipe to make this work this time around.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:40 PM
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Here are the specs on the pistons I currently have in the block:



Cast; 2 -, 5/64 Groove, 1 - 3/16 Groove, 1.630 CD, Recessed Head .145 deep x 3.000 dia. w/2 valve reliefs - 7.9:1 C.R., 0.9751" Pin Dia. .030" Oversize;

I was told when I did my build that the reliefs equal 10CC

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimora View Post
Here are the specs on the pistons I currently have in the block:



Cast; 2 -, 5/64 Groove, 1 - 3/16 Groove, 1.630 CD, Recessed Head .145 deep x 3.000 dia. w/2 valve reliefs - 7.9:1 C.R., 0.9751" Pin Dia. .030" Oversize;

I was told when I did my build that the reliefs equal 10CC
The stock Ford pistons are 1.65 Compression Height. These are 1.63, so you are giving up another 0.020" of Compression Height. Now instead of 0.067" down the hole, your pistons will be 0.087" down.

You would have had better results with a set if Flattops, and your stock heads.

Your Intake and Carb are OK.

The cam that you mentioned is OK, but I prefer a dual pattern cam. The Exhaust duration should be about 10 degrees longer than the Intake duration.

You should have a zero deck piston with a ~24cc dish, and a cam with a seat-to-seat IVC of 66 to 68 degrees BTDC.

I'll check Tim's website to see what he recommends. It should be close.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:25 PM
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Tim's pistons have a 30cc dish. Your cam should have a seat-to-seat IVC of ~62 degrees BTDC.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:01 PM
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...My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed...
Dan, do you remember where the cam broke? Was it near the second cam bearing journal?

paul
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:50 PM
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paul,

My cam didn't break, but the distributor drive gear wore, and my ignition timing was out-of-wack. Comp cams gave my 50% credit, since it was used for a couple of years. It turns out that my distributor gear was too hard, although the cam was supposed to work with all gears.

I no longer have a distributor, but the cam sensor gear was made by Lunati to be compatible with my cam.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:50 PM
 
 
 
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