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Old 04-23-2012, 09:40 AM
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superv10 superv10 is offline
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Coolant blowing from Degas bottle - need help

Title says it all, but I have a lot of details. I want to narrow down what the problem may be so I can go after it.

Here's the details on the rig:

2006 with 85000 miles. Running dieselsite coolant filter. Did a complete coolant system flush last August and replaced with Zerex G-05 phosphate free coolant. Also put a brand new thermostat.

I have/was running Spartans (Matt's) 40hp heavy tow tune and have the EGR valve unplugged (in closed mode). When I'm towing my TT and have 2 ATVs loaded, I was blowing coolant all over out of the degas bottle - enough to loose almost an entire gallon of coolant. It was never over filled and was at the min line.

The truck started to overheat according to the idiot gauge, but only once and dropped off immediately when I let out on the throttle, but I do not know the ECT or EOT numbers. With the 40HP tune in, I only saw 20 PSI of boost and EGT's were at about 1050 - nothing major. After that one overheat, it never did it again but continued to blow coolant even on flat freeway!

Now here's the kicker, when I stopped and put the stock tune back in I had no problems at all towing same load. And under the stock tune, I was pushing way more boost - ~28 PSI and hit just under 1100 EGT. I hammered the truck under stock going up a 7% grade at 60-62 MPH - it was 85 outside temp. Truck was running at 2700 rpm, I could hear the fan going full boar, and was watching fuel mileage go down!

Given that, what would be causing my coolant to blow out? I replaced the degas cap and that didn't help. I don't see how it could be head gaskets and/or stretched bolts if the stock tune with a much higher boost doesn't cause it. It seems that the coolant is getting way to hot and causing the expansion and blow. Is this a result of the EGR cooler/oil cooler?

Any guidance will be great..Thanks all!
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:54 AM
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If your stock gauge was showing hot. Chances are you were way way hot. That thing is a piece of garbage, and by the time it starts to move off the normal range you are already to hot. You really need gauges for ECT and EOT.

Your overheating could be from a blown HG, but there are also a few other possibilities. First thing is you need to plug your EGR valve back in. When it is unpluged it can effect the fan opperation, not allowing it to go to 100%. That in it's self could be the cause of your overheating. Also, just because your tune creates less boost, and EGT's (witch I might add is unusual for a tune) than stock tune, doesn't mean you don't have blown HG's. There's more to what a tune does that the stock doesn't than just boost and EGT's, cylinder pressure.

There is a TSB on how to determin causes of loosing coolant. It is a lot of steps to take to diagnose and you will need some different equipment to do the test.

Here is the TSB

TSB 09-8-3

05/04/09

COOLANT LOSS - 6.0L
FORD:
2003-2005 Excursion
2003-2007 F-Super Duty
2004-2009 E-Series

This article supersedes TSB 08-11-3 to update the Service Procedure, which includes the release of a new Oil Cooler Service Kit. The Oil Cooler Service Kit includes a serviceable heat exchanger, which is to be used to service a restricted oil cooler. Replacement of the entire Oil Cooler assembly due to flow restriction is no longer necessary.
ISSUE
Some 2003-2007 F-Super Duty, 2003-2005 Excursion and 2004-2009 E-Series vehicles, all equipped with a 6.0L engine, may exhibit:



^

Coolant venting from the degas bottle cap



^

Internal engine coolant leak (possibly resulting in a hydro-locked engine)



^

White smoke from tail pipe



^

Coolant loss



^

Lacks power due to overheating



^

No cabin heat


The conditions typically occur when operating the vehicle under a load such as trailer towing, uphill driving, or both.
ACTION
Follow the Service Procedure steps to correct the condition.

SERVICE PROCEDURE

Following the Service Procedure steps will aid in isolating the source of the coolant leak condition by testing and repairing as necessary the following: degas bottle and pressure cap integrity, exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) cooler for internal leaks and the oil cooler for coolant flow restrictions. All vehicles will be required to have the cooling system flushed with Motorcraft(R) Engine Cooling System Iron Cleaner. For vehicles that are diagnosed to have leaking head gaskets, you will be required to test the turbocharger for causing an over-boost condition, which may be the cause of the head gasket failure.
NOTE PLEASE REFER TO THE WARRANTY AND POLICY MANUAL, SECTION 3, FOR WARRANTY IMPLICATIONS OF REPAIRS RELATED TO VEHICLE MODIFICATIONS.
NOTE A NEW OIL COOLER SERVICE KIT, WHICH INCLUDES A SERVICEABLE HEAT EXCHANGER, IS TO BE USED TO SERVICE A RESTRICTED OIL COOLER. REPLACEMENT OF THE ENTIRE OIL COOLER ASSEMBLY DUE TO FLOW RESTRICTION IS NO LONGER NECESSARY.

Prior to making any repairs, verify the coolant level is not overfull. The correct cold coolant fill level is at the MIN line of the degas bottle cold. Overfilled coolant levels will cause coolant to vent from the degas bottle cap.

Complete All Steps In Order As Outlined (Steps 1-4 Must Be Performed On A Cold Engine)









1.

Inspect the cooling system as per the Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-03 for external leaks, oil or fuel contamination, and/or diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). If external coolant leaks, oil or fuel contamination of coolant, and/or DTC(s) P0480 / P0528 are found, do not continue with this procedure. Refer to WSM, Section 303-03, Powertrain Controls/Emissions Diagnosis (PC/ED) or any other applicable articles as needed.



2.

Test the degas bottle and pressure cap for proper operation of the pressure cap and its seal to the degas bottle:



a.

Do not remove the pressure cap.











b.

Install a pressure tester in-line with the degas bottle hose using Rotunda 014-R1068 adapter. (Figure 1)




c.

Pressurize the cooling system by using slow and steady pump action on the tester pump handle. Quick or rapid pumps on the tester handle may cause false readings. Pressurize the system until the gauge pressure levels off, between 12-18 psi (83-124 kPa).



d.

The degas cap should release between 12-18 psi (83-124 kPa) allowing the pressure to level off.



(1)

If the degas cap releases with less than 12 psi (83 kPa), replace the cap.



(2)

If degas cap was replaced or held pressure, apply pressure to 12-18 psi (83-124kPa) and wait 30 seconds for pressure to stabilize. If pressure holds, go to Step 2e. If pressure drops, continue to next step.



(3)

If the gauge pressure drops:



(a)

Apply soapy water around the cap to find any leaks.



(b)

Check the degas bottle fill neck lip for nicks or cracks. Small nicks can be removed by light sanding with fine emery cloth. Repair or replace as necessary and re-pressure test.



(c)

Replace the pressure cap, if leaks are still present and pressure cap was not already replaced in a previous step.



(d)

Pressurize the system and test again, if leaks are still present replace the degas bottle, Refer to WSM, Section 303-03.



e.

Record the degas cap holding pressure for later reference, go to Step 3.



CAUTION COOLANT ENTERING ANY COMBUSTION CHAMBER MAY CAUSE A HYDRO LOCK CONDITION. EVACUATE INTAKE PASSAGES AND COMBUSTION CHAMBERS OF ALL LIQUIDS USING A SUCTION DEVICE. REMOVE GLOW PLUGS (REFER TO WSM, SECTION 303-07B) TO ASSIST IN VENTING LIQUID FROM COMBUSTION CHAMBERS, BEFORE ENGINE IS STARTED.



3.

EGR Cooler Leak Test On Vehicle:

NOTE




NOTE :

A LEAKING EGR COOLER CAN CAUSE EXCESSIVE WHITE SMOKE, INTERNAL COOLANT LOSS (WHICH MAY RESULT IN A HYDRO-LOCKED ENGINE), AND/OR PRESSURIZED EXHAUST GASES ENTERING THE COOLING SYSTEM. THIS MAY RESULT IN VENTING FROM THE DEGAS BOTTLE CAP, AND APPEAR SIMILAR TO A LEAKING HEAD GASKET.




a.

Install RADKITPLUSA 078-00592 on the degas tank.



b.

Regulate shop air to 100 psi (690 kPa) and apply vacuum to cooling system until gauge stops decreasing or 20 inches of vacuum is reached. Degas bottle coolant level must be set to MIN line with a cold engine to allow sufficient space for vacuum.



c.

Hold vacuum and allow vacuum to stabilize (allow 60 seconds for vacuum to stabilize).



(1)

If vacuum holds steady over 15 minutes go to Step 5.



(2)

If vacuum does not hold steady over 15 minutes go to Step 4.





4.

EGR Cooler Leak Test Off Vehicle:



a.

Remove the EGR cooler from the engine following Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-08.











b.

Install cooler block-off tools and pressurize the EGR cooler to 30 psi (207 kPa). Fasten the inlet and outlet port block-off plates using standard bolts, nuts and washers. (Figure 2)

NOTE FOR VERY SMALL LEAKS, IT MAY BE REQUIRED THAT EGR COOLER REMAIN SUBMERGED FOR UP TO 15 MINUTES TO AID IN LEAK IDENTIFICATION. THIS TIME IS NEEDED TO ALLOW SMALL LEAKS TO DISPLACE ENOUGH WATER FROM THE COOLANT PASSAGES TO BECOME EVIDENT.









c.

Submerge the EGR cooler horizontally in the water, with the coolant ports pointing upward. Manipulate the cooler under water to purge all trapped air from the internal coolant passages. (Figure 3)



d.

Inspect for continuous bubbles escaping from the coolant ports.



(1)

If continuous bubbles identify a leak, replace the EGR cooler and service the oil cooler with an Oil Cooler Kit. Refer to the WSM, Sections 303-01C and 303-08 for additional information and go to Step 7.



(2)

If bubbles do not identify a leak, an external leak was missed in Step 1. Install the original EGR cooler and exit this procedure. This procedure should not be performed until all external cooling system leaks have been repaired.





5.

Road Test For Restricted Oil Cooler - Setup and Observations:



a.

Install integrated diagnostic system (IDS), select engine coolant temperature (ECT) and engine oil temperature (EOT) PID's on IDS Datalogger.



b.

Carefully drive the vehicle at wide open throttle (WOT) / high load to achieve maximum boost.


NOTE FOR ACCURATE TEST RESULTS, ECT TEMPERATURE MUST BE GREATER THAN 190 0F (88 C) WHEN MEASURING THE ECT AND EOT MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIAL.
NOTE PERFORMING THIS TEST STEP OUT OF SEQUENCE CAN RESULT IN INACCURATE TEST RESULTS. THIS CAN BE CAUSED BY A LEAKING EGR COOLER ALLOWING (HOT) COMBUSTION GASES TO ENTER THE ENGINE COOLANT AND ARTIFICIALLY RAISING ECT READINGS.



c.

Observe ECT and EOT PID's on IDS Datalogger. EOT maximum temperature differential might occur at throttle tip-out.



(1)

If EOT is within 15 F (8.4 C) degrees of the ECT, go to Step 7.



(2)

If EOT exceeds ECT by 15 F (8.4 C) or more at any time during the test, go to Step 6.





6.

Service Oil Cooler and Pressure Test EGR Cooler Off Vehicle:



a.

Service oil cooler with an Oil Cooler Kit per WSM, Sections 303-01C and 303-08.



b.

EGR cooler leak test - off vehicle:



(1)

Remove the EGR cooler from the engine following Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-08.



(2)

Install cooler block-off tools and pressurize the EGR cooler to 30 psi (207 kPa). Fasten the inlet and outlet port block-off plates using standard bolts, nuts and washers. (Figure 2)



NOTE FOR VERY SMALL LEAKS, IT MAY BE REQUIRED THAT EGR COOLER REMAIN SUBMERGED FOR UP TO 15 MINUTES TO AID IN LEAK IDENTIFICATION. THIS TIME IS NEEDED TO ALLOW SMALL LEAKS TO DISPLACE ENOUGH WATER FROM THE COOLANT PASSAGES TO BECOME EVIDENT.



(3)

Submerge the EGR cooler horizontally in the water, with the coolant ports pointing upward. Manipulate the cooler under water to purge all trapped air from the internal coolant passages. Inspect for continuous bubbles escaping from the coolant ports. (Figure 3)



(a)

If continuous bubbles identify a leak, replace the EGR cooler. Refer to the WSM, Sections 303-01 C and 303-08 for additional information and go to Step 7.



(b)

If bubbles do not identify a leak, install the original EGR cooler and go to Step 7.





7.

Road Test For Leaking Head Gaskets - Setup And Observations:










a.

Install the vehicle measurement module (VMM) pressure vacuum transducer (PVT), or Rotunda Pressure Adapter Kit 014-00761, or equivalent. (Figure 4)

CAUTION CAREFULLY RELEASE THE COOLING SYSTEM PRESSURE WHILE REMOVING DEGAS CAP.



b.

Carefully release the cooling system pressure, leaving the tester in place.



c.

Seal pressure bleed.



d.

Drive the vehicle at wide open throttle (WOT) I high load I to achieve maximum boost.



e.

Observe whether the cooling system pressure exceeds the holding pressure noted in Step 2e.



f.

Check for coolant venting through the degas bottle cap by listening for a hissing noise.



(1)

If the cooling system pressure is less than the holding pressure noted in Step 2, go to Step 10.



(2)

If the cooling system pressure exceeds the holding pressure noted in Step 2, and/or the degas bottle cap continuously vents with loaded engine, go to Step 8.





8.

Turbocharger Over-boost Tests

NOTE OVER-BOOST CONDITIONS WILL RESULT IN EXCESSIVE CYLINDER PRESSURES, AND MAY BE CAUSED BY IRREGULAR RESPONSE IN VARIABLE GEOMETRY TURBOCHARGER (VGT), OR BY A BIASED EXHAUST BACK PRESSURE (EBP) SENSOR SIGNAL. EXCESSIVE CYLINDER PRESSURES MAY LEAD TO HEAD GASKET FAILURE.



a.

Remove the EBP sensor wire seal connector and inspect the weather seal. If the seal is missing, replace the connector and EBP sensor.



b.

Perform both turbocharger tests in IDS by going to the tests as follows and performing the on-screen prompts:



(1)

Tool Box > Powertrain > Air Management > Turbo Test > Turbo Boost Test



(2)

Tool Box > Powertrain > Air Management > Turbo Test > VVT Test


NOTE FOR 2003 AND EARLY 2004 MODEL YEAR VEHICLES, PERFORM PC/ED PPT STEPS KA9 AND KA10 FOR VVT TEST TO DETERMINE VGT VANE OPERATION.



(a)

If either test indicates turbocharger repair or replacement is required, refer to the WSM, Section 303-01D General Procedures for Turbocharger Reconditioning procedures. Turbocharger service must be performed while the turbocharger is off the vehicle for head gasket service in Step 9.



(b)

If both tests indicate the turbocharger is operating properly, go to Step 9.




9.

Head Gasket Replacement:










a.

Replace the head gaskets. Refer to WSM, Section 303-01 C for head removal installation, cleaning and flatness measurement procedures. Refer to Cylinder Head Gasket Identification Chart located at the end of this procedure. (Figure 5)



b.

Use other applicable TSB for proper cylinder head identification.




10.

Vehicle Assembly:

NOTE FAILURE TO PROPERLY FLUSH THE COOLING SYSTEM WITH MOTORCRAFT(R) ENGINE COOLING SYSTEM IRON CLEANER (VC-9) FOLLOWING WSM PROCEDURES MAY RESULT IN REPEAT EGR COOLER AND OIL COOLER FAILURES.



a.

Flush the cooling and heater system together using the WSM, Section 303-03 Cooling System Flushing - Diesel Engine procedure. Engine coolant quality can be affected by combustion gases, operation at low system pressure or exposure to excessive system temperatures. Engine coolant degradation characteristics include silicate drop out (clouding) and reduced corrosion protection. Rust flakes and silicate that combine in the system might collect in the oil cooler and be mistaken as casting sand.



b.

Change engine oil and oil filter.








Parts Block

OTHER APPLICABLE ARTICLES: 07-10-4, 05-2-5
WARRANTY STATUS: Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage
IMPORTANT : Warranty coverage limits/policies are not altered by a TSB. Warranty coverage limits are determined by the identified causal part.
OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME

090803A 2003-2007 Super Duty, 1.3 Hrs.
2003-2005 Excursion 6.0L,
2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L:
Includes Time To:
Pressure Test The Cooling
System Several Times;
Test The EGR Cooler On
Vehicle, Replace The
Degas Cap If Required,
Sand Degas Bottle Fill
Neck To Remove Small
Nicks If Required, Install
IDS/PVT, Road Test(s)
And Check For DTCs (May
Be Claimed With
Operations B, C, D, E, F,
G and H)

090803B 2004-2007 Super Duty, 6.1 Hrs.
2004-2005 Excursion 6.0L:
Includes Time To: Remove
And Leak Check EGR
Cooler Off Engine,
Replace EGR Cooler And
Oil Cooler If Required
(May Be Claimed With
Operations A, C, D, E, F,
G And H)

090803B 2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L: 7.8 Hrs.
Includes Time To: Remove
And Leak Check EGR
Cooler Off Engine,
Replace EGR Cooler And
Oil Cooler If Required May
Be Claimed With
Operations A, C, D, E, F,
G And H

090803B 2003 Super Duty, 2003 5.5 Hrs.
Excursion 6.0L: Includes
Time To: Remove And
Leak Check EGR Cooler
Off Engine, Replace EGR
Cooler And Oil Cooler If
Required (May Be Claimed
With Operations A, C, D,
E, F, G And H)

090803C 2003-2007 Super Duty, 0.5 Hr.
2003-2005 Excursion,
2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L:
Replace The Degas Bottle,
May Be Claimed With
Operations A, B, D, E, F,
G And H

090803D 2003-2004 Super Duty, 15.0
2003 Excursion 6.0L: Hrs.
Includes Time To: Test
And/Or Replace EBP
Sensor And Connector If
Required, Perform Turbo
Boost Test, Replace Head
Gaskets, May Be Claimed
With Operations A, B, C,
E, F, G And H

090803D 2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L: 21.1
Includes Time To: Test Hrs.
And/Or Replacing EBP
Sensor And Connector If
Required, Perform Turbo
Boost Test, Replace Head
Gaskets (May Be Claimed
With Operations A, B, C,
E, F, G And H)

090803D 2005-2007 Super Duty, 15.5
2004-2005 Excursion 6.0L: Hrs.
Includes Time To: Test
And/Or Replace EBP
Sensor And Connector If
Required, Perform Turbo
Boost Test, Replace Head
Gaskets (May Be Claimed
With Operations A, B, C,
E, F, G And H)

090803E 2003-2007 Super Duty, 1.5 Hrs.
2003-2005 Excursion 6.0L:
Remove Glow Plugs To
Vent Liquid From
Combustion Chambers,
Should Only Be Claimed If
Engine Is Found To Be
Hydro-locked (May Be
Claimed With Operations
A, B, C, D, F, G And H)

090803E 2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L: 2.4 Hrs.
Remove Glow Plugs To
Vent Liquid From
Combustion Chambers
Should Only Be Claimed If
Engine Is Found To Be
Hydro-locked (May Be
Claimed With Operations
A, B, C, D, F, G And H)

090803F 2003-2007 Super Duty, 2.1 Hrs.
2003-2005 Excursion 6.0L:
Includes Time To: Flush
And Fill Cooling System,
Change Engine Oil And
Filter (May Be Claimed
With Operations A, B, C,
D, E, G And H)

090803F 2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L: 3.0 Hrs.
Includes Time To: Flush
And Fill Cooling System,
Change Engine Oil And
Filter (May be Claimed
With Operations A, B, C,
D, E, G And H)

090803G 2003-2007 Super Duty, 1.0 Hr.
2003-2005 Excursion,
2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L:
Includes Time To:
Re-condition Turbocharger
(May Be Claimed With
Operations A, B, C, D, E,
F And H)

090803H 2003-2007 Super Duty, 0.3 Hr.
2003-2005 Excursion,
2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L:
Includes Time To: Replace
Turbocharger Center
Housing Rotating
Assembly (May Be
Claimed With Operations
A, B, C, D, E, F And G)
DEALER CODING CONDITION
BASIC PART NO. CODE
6A642 55
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:14 PM
PowerplayConway PowerplayConway is offline
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You have certainly given me a place to start, excellent information.

Powerplay,

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Old 03-13-2014, 12:35 PM
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One thing you can do that's easy and quick that might get you much closer to a diagnosis is to release the pressure from the degass bottle (open the cap). Once you've released all pressure but the cap back on. Start the truck and check to see if the degass bottle pressurizes as soon as you start the truck (remove the cap slowly to see if you hear it release).

If it's pressurized as soon as you start the truck, pull the little 3/8" hose off the top of the degass bottle while it's running (should be able to pull it by hand, or pinch the clamp by hand enough to let it go) see if there's a little vapor coming out of the hose, smell it. If it smells like exhaust, there's really only 1 way exhaust gets into the cooling system. Head gaskets.

The degass bottle will usualy look dark, dirty and somewhat funky.

That was the sure thing test on mine. Otherwise mine ran fine, although I also had my EGR unplugged and realize now, that was part of the cause of odd fan operation and possibly a slow decline in heat in the truck, especially the rear heat which had been started becoming a problem for 2-3 years prior.

That's a 2-3 minute almost sure test, I imagine the amount of pressure and time it take to pressurize depends on how bad the HG's are. Mine were breached around all 8 cyliders, but nice and evenly. If there was an upside, that was it, the heads were in good shape and mated to the block well.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKTex View Post
....If it smells like exhaust, there's really only 1 way exhaust gets into the cooling system. Head gaskets.
Close....there are actually 2 ways on a 6.0, the other is the EGR cooler.

You can actually go to harbor freight and build yourself a gauge to test the pressure and easily determine what the problem is.

You'll need a T-fitting for 3/8 hose and of course a guage to monitor pressure.

Perform this test when the truck is fully warmed up btw...

-If the pressure rises quickly under hard acceleration, it's the EGR cooler leaking.

-If the pressure rises slowly under hard acceleration, you have blown Head Gaskets.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toreador_Diesel View Post
Close....there are actually 2 ways on a 6.0, the other is the EGR cooler.

You can actually go to harbor freight and build yourself a gauge to test the pressure and easily determine what the problem is.

You'll need a T-fitting for 3/8 hose and of course a guage to monitor pressure.

Perform this test when the truck is fully warmed up btw...

-If the pressure rises quickly under hard acceleration, it's the EGR cooler leaking.

-If the pressure rises slowly under hard acceleration, you have blown Head Gaskets.

Good point. I'd assume in most cases if the EGR cooler is shot, coolant would end up white smoke out the tail pipe though. No always, but usually.

In my case, it didn't need time to build pressure, it was instant. As soon as the truck was started the degass had pressure, and a 3/8" rubber exhaust pipe feeding it. I wish I would have taken a video now.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:55 PM
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