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2004 - 2008 F150 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 Ford F150's with 5.4 V8, 4.6 V8 or 4.2 V6 engine
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  #31  
Old 06-20-2012, 08:59 AM
jrroth jrroth is offline
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No. The lock-outs physically prevent the phasers from moving at all which is actually what quiets them. Over time, I believe that the spring weakens a bit and allows the phasers to move just enough to cause the knocking. The custom tune doesn't do a whole lot but defeat operation of the VCT solenoids and block the DTCs that would otherwise be set due to the cam not retarding/advancing properly. Also I beleive that the spark is advanced one degree to help offset the non-functioning cam phasers.

Jim
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  #32  
Old 06-20-2012, 11:27 AM
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Your problem may be a worn cam follower. Try to localize the noise to further diagnose it. It would possibly move down the side/meaning length of the head of the motor, more easily diagnosed with listening carefully when very cold or warmed up completely. Be patient to find the spot. The VCT problem is not always just the chains or phasers. It can go into the valve cover area. More curiosity sometimes is a good thing. These overhead cams do sometimes flatten out/wear through the hardening, and the clearence cannot be adjusted out by the systems built in.
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  #33  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:48 PM
Steve_Uzi Steve_Uzi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Tiger View Post
Your problem may be a worn cam follower. Try to localize the noise to further diagnose it. It would possibly move down the side/meaning length of the head of the motor, more easily diagnosed with listening carefully when very cold or warmed up completely. Be patient to find the spot. The VCT problem is not always just the chains or phasers. It can go into the valve cover area. More curiosity sometimes is a good thing. These overhead cams do sometimes flatten out/wear through the hardening, and the clearence cannot be adjusted out by the systems built in.
Would a worn cam follower be easy to spot if the valve cover was off ??

I am chasing the same Issue Jim (Jrroth) has had... Only idles rough / wants to stall after warm up, and sometimes throws a P0345 code.

So far:
- TB cleaned
- Both Phasers replaced
- Both VCT soleniods replaced (due to hole in screens)
- Pass side Cam posit sensor ( I broke the stupid thing.. only a $27 mistake)
- Plugs (broke 4 - 84,500 on engine)

I bought the Cloyes Timing chain kit (guides, chains, gear and tensioners) and plan on replacing those.
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  #34  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:48 PM
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I would check very closely the parts. Ford's TSB included them when doing the phasers on the older motors. It could be believable that the problem was never truly solved.
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  #35  
Old 07-27-2012, 07:00 PM
PeterTheWolf PeterTheWolf is offline
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Are these limiters being put in at full advanced or at full retarded?

If I remember correctly, the cam phasers are at the full retarded position without any oil pressure to advance them. Hence poor timing at idle ... run very rough idle and seems like it wants to die. So I would think you are putting these limiters in so the cam phasers are in the most advanced position all the time.

Is this correct?

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  #36  
Old 07-27-2012, 11:40 PM
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Engine runs full advanced and retards when lean mixture happens to cut emissions by holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond to let it mix with incoming fresh air charge. Thus lessening the ozone emmissions replacing the EGR systems. The newest motors move both cams for overlap and fuel injection to occur many times for micro- seconds at a time during the intake stroke. Also used this way to heat up the Catz quicker from cold start ups.
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  #37  
Old 07-28-2012, 09:00 AM
PeterTheWolf PeterTheWolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Papa Tiger View Post
Engine runs full advanced and retards when lean mixture happens to cut emissions by holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond to let it mix with incoming fresh air charge. Thus lessening the ozone emmissions replacing the EGR systems. The newest motors move both cams for overlap and fuel injection to occur many times for micro- seconds at a time during the intake stroke. Also used this way to heat up the Catz quicker from cold start ups.
This is when the Cam phaser is working correctly.
However, the question still in my mind is:

Is the limiters being installed at full advance or full retarded to quiet up the noise at idle?
It has to be one or the other.
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  #38  
Old 07-28-2012, 04:40 PM
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It's better to degree the engine in with Cam timing verses an EGR system. Cam timing is much quicker to response from sensors and the ECU. You may be getting worn guides and the 1st warning sign of breakage. Over all the engine puts out more with adjustable cam timing. Truck engine doesn't fully u ta lize it but it is better than an EGR system of the distant past.
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  #39  
Old 07-28-2012, 04:45 PM
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Oil PSI applied by the solenoids retard the exhaust camshaft and allow some spent gas to mix with the incoming air/fuel charge lessening ozone emmisions at hot/lean burn times adjusted by the ECU and sensor data. The kit removes the movement period. You can degree in your cam as you wish. You need his specs and his timing to get the motor running properly. Without the sysem andy has purchased the ECU won't recognize whats going on and will throw codes.
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  #40  
Old 07-28-2012, 07:24 PM
shfd102chief shfd102chief is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheWolf View Post
This is when the Cam phaser is working correctly.
However, the question still in my mind is:

Is the limiters being installed at full advance or full retarded to quiet up the noise at idle?
It has to be one or the other.
The limiter/lockouts are installed at fully advanced. I just received my kit from livernois yesterday and the instructions make it sound like when you remove the cam phaser a spring keeps the vanes in the fully advanced position, which is the position you "lock" it in. Just so you know, Livernois strongly recommends lockouts and not limiters for f150s with the cam phaser tick. The limiter is designed more for mustangs with cam changes.
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  #41  
Old 07-28-2012, 09:29 PM
shfd102chief shfd102chief is offline
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Thanks for the Great Post!

Andy,
Not sure if you're still following this thread, but I wanted to say thanks. I've been searching for years for a solution to this cam phaser issue and had heard about Livernois, but couldn't find a reputable explanation. After finding your thread, I decided it was time to go for it. I ordered the lockouts with tuner last week and plan on tearing into the truck on Monday. Thanks again for the pics and helpful hints. I'm not a mechanic, but I feel more comfortable with a solid reference, like yours, to check.
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  #42  
Old 07-28-2012, 11:39 PM
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SHFD make sure you check your adjuster tensioner seals make sure they aren't blown out. You don't want the oil leaks nohow.
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  #43  
Old 07-29-2012, 12:26 AM
PeterTheWolf PeterTheWolf is offline
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The reason I am asking about this lock is this:
1) I just got done putting $4k into rebuilding my motor that had 150k on it.
2) block was cleaned, bored .010" over And hone with a torque plate on it. Decked, new freeze and oil vane plugs and pressure checked. All holes chased. The mains were line-honed.
3) crank was polished and standard main bearings used. All oil clearances with ford specs. Bearings USA made.
4) new USA made pistons and rings. Each cylinder honed per piston and per spec.
5) heads completely redone. All exhaust valve guides replaced and 5 exhaust valves replaced. All lash-adjusters replaced. USA made.
6) obviously all new gaskets, o-rings and all bolts replaced with ARP bolts torqued with lube.
7) completely new timing kit USA made and New CAM Phasers from Ford With new VCT solenoid.
8) MMR Oil Pump
9) all oil clearances within Ford Spec.
10) engine was primed with 5w-20 castrol gtx before starting.
11) new crank shaft sensor from Ford.
This engine started right up and run great.

Now let me Tell you my problem.
And before someone says it is my cam phaser... Please re-read the above. It is not the cam phasers.

The first 20 miles I drive this engine with my foot in the gas as if I were a teenager who just got his license. I did keep it under 65 mph and I did not take it over 4k.
This was used to seat the piston rings.


It run very well. Obviously I brought it up to normal running temp. Before I did this.

Once I got back from the 20 mile ring seating drive I pulled in the driveway and when I came to a stop to let it idle the idle was rough. Cam phase was too retarded and out of timing.
The next day i changed the oil and drove it for 250 miles, which was today, under normal driving conditions in the mountains.

It run great ; however, out this 250 mile drive about 25% of the stop sign idles the cam phases would act up. Rough idle do to the retarded position. I shot one code of P0022.

There is something more going on with this motor.
What I was hoping to do was to get some advice what I need to look at to correct this problem.
I do believe the lock outs will correct this problem. But i was hoping someone may have the expertise on these motors to help me find out why there is this intermittent problem.

I have not replaced the cam positioning sensors yet and this was going to be my first step.

Sorry for the long post but felt it was the only way to pervert the common response of "it is your cam phasers"

Thanks,
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  #44  
Old 07-29-2012, 02:51 AM
parkland parkland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheWolf View Post
5) heads completely redone. All exhaust valve guides replaced and 5 exhaust valves replaced. All lash-adjusters replaced. USA made.

Why would you have the engine completely rebuilt, and not get a full rebuild kit for the valvetrain?

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  #45  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:03 AM
PeterTheWolf PeterTheWolf is offline
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Why would you have the engine completely rebuilt, and not get a full rebuild kit for the valvetrain?

I am assuming you are referring to the springs, Other values etc.,
I did not see the need to replace Componets when they were within spec.
The springs compression check was well within spec.

If you were to purchase a remanufactured head from Ford... This is exactly what you would get. A head with all components within spec used again... Hence... Remanufactured.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:03 AM
 
 
 
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