Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L)
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L) Diesel Topics Only

Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 12:36 AM
1stgen3rdgendodge's Avatar
1stgen3rdgendodge 1stgen3rdgendodge is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 163
1stgen3rdgendodge is starting off with a positive reputation.
Manual for a ZF5

Anybody know where I can get a manual for a ZF5. I picked up 2 S5-42 4x4 ZF5's yesterday for quite a good deal. Couldn't pass it up. They are in pieces at the moment but I'm wanting to build one out of all the pieces I have. They both came from behind a 7.3 but one has a different 1st gear than the other. I'm assuming one is a granny gear?? Maybe maybe not. Anyways anybody know where I can get a manual on them. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
__________________

01 Dodge 2500 QCSB 5.9 24V Auto 4x4 - Edge Juice With Attitude - 5" Straight Pipe - AEM Intake - Glowshift Tranny, Boost - Raptor 150 - Bullydog J Hook - Big Line Kit Tank to VP - Stage 5 150hp Jammer Nozzles
86 Ford F250 Ext. Cab 6.9 IDI 4spd 4x4 - 10ft flatbed - 2 ZF5's in pieces (Coming soon - 38 Gallon Tank - New Shoes - 3" Duals - Glowshift Pyro)
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 02:18 PM
Aune163rd's Avatar
Aune163rd Aune163rd is offline
A Half a meatball....
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Missoula, Montana
Posts: 4,250
Aune163rd has a very good reputation on FTE.Aune163rd has a very good reputation on FTE.Aune163rd has a very good reputation on FTE.
http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/u...ce_manual_.pdf

here ya be
__________________
Quintin Aune BigBs'r #21 & Off. Slackmaster #31
1984 F250 6.9l N/A 212,000 miles Wrecked 26 Oct 11
1990 F-350 7.3l IDI ZF-5(sold)
2000 F-250 6.8l Triton V10 209k miles
2006 F-250 5.4l Triton V8 129k Loaded XL
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 02:55 PM
starmilt starmilt is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Faibanks Ak.
Posts: 10,503
starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.
Thanks for that file Aune.
Does anyone know for sure, positively, if the wide ratio gas gears can be used in the diesel case.
I have read that they can and that they can't, I have just not read it from anyone that actually changed them or tried to change them.
__________________
absolutely no dodges.
to many fords to list.
one town car.sold
If it breaks because of my advice
you can keep both halves
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 03:57 PM
FORDF250HDXLT's Avatar
FORDF250HDXLT FORDF250HDXLT is offline
Diesel Junkie
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,878
FORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud of
what would be the advantage of having gears further apart star? do you find the diesel Zf5 too closely geared so you have to shift too soon or?
on a side note,that does sound kinda backwards in general doesn't it.close ratio one would think would be better suited for a gas to keep it's rpms up,and wider for a diesel giving that a diesel has it's grunt down low.hmm.
__________________
♠ Log Truck: '93 F-Super Duty (F450) XLT 1st Gen Navistar 444ci IDI Diesel w/ Intercooled 2nd Gen Banks Sidewinder Turbo, E40D, 5:13, Dually, 16' Dump ♠
♠ Chip Truck: '93 F250HD XLT 4x4 1st Gen Navistar 444ci IDI Diesel w/ Intercooled 2nd Gen Banks Sidewinder Turbo, E40D, 3.55, Dually, 9' Dump, & Plow ♠

Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 04:42 PM
starmilt starmilt is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Faibanks Ak.
Posts: 10,503
starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.
I personally like the gears better, I like the low granny and reverse, as with a load I can idle off with out touching the throttle, or slipping the clutch.

Also if I need the closer split between gears I can split them with the GV.

I also like to idle around when I am off road without slipping the clutch.
It is also easier to back a trailer in tight spots, with out going to low range.
It basically fits what I do better, but it is not for everybody, for instance plowing snow, half of your time is spent backing up, it would basically be too slow.
__________________
absolutely no dodges.
to many fords to list.
one town car.sold
If it breaks because of my advice
you can keep both halves
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 06:04 PM
FORDF250HDXLT's Avatar
FORDF250HDXLT FORDF250HDXLT is offline
Diesel Junkie
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,878
FORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud ofFORDF250HDXLT has much to be proud of
ah i see.i understand and use low range almost daily myself.i guess im just used to pulling that lever moving around to load up,up steep drives and for backing up when towing my equipment etc.
you know,if you prefer not having to pull the lever all the time,many latter ('95 + probably?) 1156 t-cases are actuated electrically,so all you need to do is push the button.id image this swap would much easier? not sure if that's what your after really,just figured id throw that out there.
__________________
♠ Log Truck: '93 F-Super Duty (F450) XLT 1st Gen Navistar 444ci IDI Diesel w/ Intercooled 2nd Gen Banks Sidewinder Turbo, E40D, 5:13, Dually, 16' Dump ♠
♠ Chip Truck: '93 F250HD XLT 4x4 1st Gen Navistar 444ci IDI Diesel w/ Intercooled 2nd Gen Banks Sidewinder Turbo, E40D, 3.55, Dually, 9' Dump, & Plow ♠

Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 07:11 PM
starmilt starmilt is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Faibanks Ak.
Posts: 10,503
starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.
I also like to idle around off road, this is in low range. When I had my shop, I used to push loaded semi,s in, and didn't like going to low range and then having to shift up.
It all depends on what you do, but I liked the one I had a gas tranny in way better than the several I've had with the diesel version. (talking 4spd's here)
I actually traded for a gas four spd to install in my dually when the clutch has to be replaced, but have now traded for another ZF5, if the clutch ever needs replacing, I think the motor is going to need it first though. lol
__________________
absolutely no dodges.
to many fords to list.
one town car.sold
If it breaks because of my advice
you can keep both halves
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 08:25 PM
tecgod13 tecgod13 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 2,229
tecgod13 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FORDF250HDXLT View Post
ah i see.i understand and use low range almost daily myself.i guess im just used to pulling that lever moving around to load up,up steep drives and for backing up when towing my equipment etc.
you know,if you prefer not having to pull the lever all the time,many latter ('95 + probably?) 1156 t-cases are actuated electrically,so all you need to do is push the button.id image this swap would much easier? not sure if that's what your after really,just figured id throw that out there.
And I'll throw out that the biggest problem with electrically actuated transfer cases is the electrical part. You never actually know if it works or not. And when the motor dies, you're SOL as you can't change it, even better if it craps out when changing ranges and you're stuck in neutral and can't go anywhere.

I know exactly what starmilt is saying, it makes a lot of sense. 95% of the time I'm in low range its when I'm backing up a trailer (or trying to hook up to it).

As to the gas verse diesel gears, I don't know... I'm going to lean towards yes they can. Looking at the parts file, some of things seemed to be grouped depending on the gear ratio, somethings depending on the engine, somethings 4x2 vs 4x4/superduty(parking brake).
From what I can tell, there are 3 input shafts: all small block gas(wide ratio), wide ratio, close ratio. Looks like the 460 and 6.9/7.3 use the same input shaft, the difference being the gear ratios. There are only two countershafts, wide ratio or close ratio. There are also 3 front housings (bell/engine pattern), small block gas, big block gas, and diesel. There are several rear housings, but again small block gas is by itself, while the 460 and diesel can share the same rear housing (in either a 4x2 or 4x4 option)

From what I'm seeing, if the gas gears are from a 460 (big block), they should be able to swap with a diesel. You might be able to mess around with some of the gearing, however, 1st,2nd and reverse are all built into the countershaft. But you might be able to swap 3rd, 4th, and 5th from wide ratio to close ratio or vice versa. I'm saying this just looking at the pictures, I DON"T know if thats really possible.

That being said, if anyone has a 460 wide ratio gas tranny sitting around, I have a disassembled diesel tranny in my garage we could compare it to. I'll guess mine is the close ratio diesel, but theres no data plate on that one, and its too wet to climb under my actual truck to look at that one (both the same ratio).

Spare parts break down:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/u...SpareParts.pdf
Transmission break down by gear ratio and engine:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/u...nsmissions.pdf
__________________
1988 F250, 7.3L IDI, regular cab, long bed, 5spd ZF
Mods: ATS turbo, 3.5 inch exhaust, superduty springs front and rear, 4 gauge A-pillar pod: boost, pyro, coolant and 4th spot is switches; was 2wd, now 4wd with Dana 60 front axle
next projects: fix/complete the 3.5 inch exhaust (tailpipe exits waaaaaay to low, and needs to be extended out from under the bed) swap to a rust free cab
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 09:03 PM
starmilt starmilt is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Faibanks Ak.
Posts: 10,503
starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.
As I understand it all diesels are close ratio, but there is two ratios.
I would have no use to mix and match ratios, like I said I would just split the gears if I need to with the gv.
__________________
absolutely no dodges.
to many fords to list.
one town car.sold
If it breaks because of my advice
you can keep both halves
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 11:52 PM
1stgen3rdgendodge's Avatar
1stgen3rdgendodge 1stgen3rdgendodge is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 163
1stgen3rdgendodge is starting off with a positive reputation.
Thanks everybody for the info. Aune163rd sorry I never got back to you about that T19. Been crazy busy here and then I ran across these 2 ZF5's for $150 and couldn't pass them up. Now I have one whole case and then a mid sectaion and tail section for another case (both 4x4). The bell was cracked and so was junked. Now like I said in my first post 1st gear is the only thing different between the 2 trans I have. Not sure what's up with that.
__________________

01 Dodge 2500 QCSB 5.9 24V Auto 4x4 - Edge Juice With Attitude - 5" Straight Pipe - AEM Intake - Glowshift Tranny, Boost - Raptor 150 - Bullydog J Hook - Big Line Kit Tank to VP - Stage 5 150hp Jammer Nozzles
86 Ford F250 Ext. Cab 6.9 IDI 4spd 4x4 - 10ft flatbed - 2 ZF5's in pieces (Coming soon - 38 Gallon Tank - New Shoes - 3" Duals - Glowshift Pyro)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2011, 01:10 PM
Ford F834's Avatar
Ford F834 Ford F834 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,170
Ford F834 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by starmilt View Post
Thanks for that file Aune.
Does anyone know for sure, positively, if the wide ratio gas gears can be used in the diesel case.
I have read that they can and that they can't, I have just not read it from anyone that actually changed them or tried to change them.
We may be in luck! Look at the manual that Aune sent, 3rd page down near the bottom under vehicle applications. It lists the narrow range as "diesel only" while the wide range is described as being used in BOTH diesel and gas trucks over 8500 GVW. Over on the right, the ratio chart also lists the narrow range as diesel, and the wide range as gas OR diesel applications! If this is correct, we should be able to find a diesel housing ZF with wide gear spread.

Like you, I do not care for the diesel tranny's gear placement. I have driven granny gear T18's for many years before buying my diesel and although I enjoy the synchronized first gear, I hate everything else about my diesel T19. My truck is too heavy to start out in 2nd gear without really riding the clutch. 1st gear is way lower than necessary to get the thing rolling, and the extra shift adds to the slowness and roughness of start-outs. With T18, 2nd is fine for 99.99% of start-outs, even with 1T or better loaded on or pulled. I only resorted to 1st gear with a LOT of weight on a steep hill from a dead stop, or as a crawl gear in the woods. Third gear is lower than the T18, so when you downshift to corner a rolling turn the diesel T19 revs the engine and lurches a lot more. Lastly, I have the Gear Vendor unit also, and the narrow range makes it silly to want to split the gears even more... 3rd OD is so close to 4th that what's the point?

I could just pick up a gas T18 or T19 for my project, but it would be really nice to have the ZF's 5th gear. I have my GV overdrive engaged in 4th gear at about 35-40 mph (stock 235/85/16 tires and 4:10's), and at highway speeds it is screaming for another gear. Rather than go through the hassle and expense of doing a ring and pinion swap in both axles, a ZF would provide "double overdrive" and essentially duplicate 3.08 gears plus overdrive. (If I pull this off I'll be the first to tell you what my mpg's are!... and don't forget I'm cutting my truck in half so it should finish out pretty light) It may be a real pill to locate a wide range diesel ZF, but how awesome would that be? With R/P 4:10's ZF (5.72-0.76) + BW1345 (2.74) + GV (0.78) would provide 14 gears with final outputs from 64.26 to 2.43!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2011, 01:34 PM
starmilt starmilt is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Faibanks Ak.
Posts: 10,503
starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.starmilt has a very good reputation on FTE.
We have a member , or at least used to that has a gv behind an E40D and 3.55 gears.
He moved I believe from cali to florida and got good mileage. I would be lying if I posted the exact mileage, but I remember it was good for an idi at interstate speeds.
__________________
absolutely no dodges.
to many fords to list.
one town car.sold
If it breaks because of my advice
you can keep both halves
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2011, 01:55 PM
Alvin in AZ's Avatar
Alvin in AZ Alvin in AZ is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Gadsden Purchase
Posts: 2,760
Alvin in AZ is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Alvin in AZ is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
So this is what they mean by "Nilos Ring"... :)
NILOS RINGS

In God's "spare parts break down" PDF...
http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/u...SpareParts.pdf
...there's a part at position 02.030 that Ford calls an "oil dam".

That part's installation is not fool proof. Mine came from the factory not
seated all the way down and caused a metal scraping noise that was
pretty much continuous, got it cheaper because of that. LOL ;)

Anyway the Ford manual makes a big deal about being sure it's seated
all the way down and I caught myself not seating it all the way down
because there's a step for it to rest against that can fool ya. :/

But being the tinkering-fool-that-I-am, and in no-hurry (looking at minor
details for the fun of it etc) I just happened to catch my mistake. Same
mistake they made at the factory and the reason for the strong wording
in the Ford Shop Manual ...is the way I figure it.

Mine had rubbed so much and for so long (187k miles) that the rubber
had turned super hard and some was chipped away and the metal was
colored from the heat. Betcha is was bad for the bearings in that ZF! :/

--------------------------

Also, the picture is wrong in assembly step #13 page 07-03B-40...

ZF manual:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/u...ce_manual_.pdf

Don't let it spook ya. LOL :) BTDT, took me a half hour to realize the
picture was wrong and not me. Got the same mistake in the '91 Ford
Shop Manual, see? ;)

Alvin in AZ
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2011, 04:39 PM
76ranger's Avatar
76ranger 76ranger is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South Bend, IN
Posts: 446
76ranger has a great reputation on FTE.76ranger has a great reputation on FTE.76ranger has a great reputation on FTE.76ranger has a great reputation on FTE.76ranger has a great reputation on FTE.
You didnt happen to pick those zf's up in Barrien Springs?
__________________
Kevin
97 F350 CCLB 4x4 zf5 7.3 PSD
91 F250 ECLB 4x4 zf5 7.3 IDIT
88 F350 C&C SCLB 4x4 zf5 460 dually
93 F150 ECLB 4x4 e4od 302 7in lift 35's
76 F150 SCLB 4x4 c6 390fe
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2011, 07:50 PM
82F100SWB's Avatar
82F100SWB 82F100SWB is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Sioux Lookout, ON, Canada
Posts: 4,621
82F100SWB has a good reputation on FTE.82F100SWB has a good reputation on FTE.
The wide ratio diesel ZF is found in the f450's, they also came with the DMF AND a sprung clutch disc... just a little odd.
__________________
96 F350 Crew Psd/5 speed,/4x4... $600 special
96 F250 XLT PSD/5 speed/4x4... Freebie!
92 W250 LE, 4x4/CTD/G360/D60/D70U
86 F250 HD 4x4, 6.9/T19/broken D44 TTB junk/10.25.
8? F100 4x4 Mild 460/T19 D60/welded 10.25/44 Boggers,
It's not what you BUY, It's what you BUILD
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 07:50 PM
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L)

Tags
1988, 350, burners, cracked, diesel, ford, gear, housing, manuals, oil, speed, stuck, tail, tailhousing, zf, zf5

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup