Ric got hosed, plain and simple. Given that it is not unreasonable to expect about 10,000 hours of service from the HPFP and that he got something like 1,000 hrs out of his, his pump failed way up on the wrong side of the bell curve. Time will tell if the bell curve on the CP4 has a median of around 10,000 hrs., but if somewhat short of that then it's pretty much a POS. BTW, this wouldn't be the first time Bosch put out a HPFP that typically failed well before 10,000 hrs., a lot of Cummins owners were disappointed by the VP44 pump.

 

Rickatic,

Having been a development engineer, field service engineer, product support mnager and numerous sales managing jobs for a major diesel and gaseous engine company for over 24 years now...I have to state I'm siding with you!

I won't go into laborious detail, but bottom line:

1. Our company validates fuel systems to extreme pressure and fuel lubricity (even to todays ultra low sulfur "hydro cracked" lower lubricity fuel) --> meaning it should still function even with "little" water. Our customers expect high performance, quality, and durability.
2. Even when I encountered a failure that was "non-warranty" (material or workmanship of my company) I would review the situation from. "goodwill" aspect (note: I developed the "goodwill" process for my company in 1998 based of my experiences in the field with real life customers that used their products either to make a living and/or to have fun with. We train our new service reps on it thoroughly to ensure our customers receive fair value, satisfaction and loyalty. Maybe it's the way I grew up in the mid-West on a farm and these values were engrained in me - but my management and executives recognized this and put me in charge to carry out this process because at the end of the day even customers who experienced problems became more loyal!)

I'm pretty good at failure analysis and problem resolution. Based off what I have "read" of your issue I probably would have gone warranty, but let's say I didn't...then at the very least I would have offered you "goodwill".

Based on no "chip", owner abuse, loyalty of your family to our company, major investment in this truck by you, etc... that this engine should go 250,000 miles and that you received 31,000 miles of life, and after reviewing with you personally (i like to read the person and look eye to eye) I would have offered that you pay 10% of the repair bill and I will pick up the rest as "goodwill" for all the aforementioned reasons.

Typically the repairs break down to 2/3 parts and 1/3 labor. I would have taken the parts down to warranty rate

I know this doesn't do you any good with Ford, but I'm just telling you how I would have handled for my company. 9 times out of 10 in a situation such as yours I would have gained an even more loyal customer than one who never had a problem, odd how that works, but when you stand side by side with someone through the "****" it works out that way.

Brian

 

As to Tom's bad fuel question, who defines bad fuel? How does an owner know if he has bought bad fuel? Are we still discussing water in the fuel? Again, there was no water found by anyone in the fuel system. This has been validated by Shepherds. Their 3 certified diesel techs, with a combined seniority at Shepherds of over 90 years, have all seen the disassembled pump. They stand pat on their original diagnosis, not a water issue. Multiple engineers have visually inspected the pump. Their analysis is the same. All have said "low lubricity" is responsible. Is their credibility in question here?............................................. .......................I have a response from Shepards confirming rust was found. I've been trying to be nice and not release it. but this has got to stop.

 

Rust means there was water...

 

Rick reported the first dealer found rust as well, but no other details were metioned after that statement. Also Rick reported the first dealer found water in the fuel filter/water seperator so water was in the fuel system, but to be clear I'm not saying this was the source of Ricks problem.

Rick,
Can you chime in and give us details about the rust you reported the first dealer found?

 

Not necessarily.... The rust could have come from the gas stations tank and was pumped into the truck during fill up.

 

Vince

The rust referenced by Ray at Shepherds was a very minute partial brown stain that was hardly visible on the Pressure Control Valve (PCV). The stain on my PCV is less than 10% of what appears in the diagnostics example. Since the conversation you are referencing, Ray and all the diesel mechanics have looked at all the disassembled pump and injection parts. The remainder of the parts shown in the diagnosis bulletin are absolutely spotless. I have seen the entire internet conversation that you reference. I know you would like to lessen the bloody nose Ford has gotten themselves over this repair but even the FSE told Ray that if the truck had been brought there first, he would have approved the warranty repair.

The only water found in this mess was in the used bottled drinking water container that the first dealer used. There was no water in the fuel tank or the secondary filter. There was no evidence of water at the pump. I have stated many times that Shepherds drained the Titan tank with the intention of ruling water either in or out. They found no water in the tank. Seeing that you can not use the fuel system to pump out the entire contents of the tank...and the fact that water would stay at the bottom of the tank...and the fact that the first dealer only claimed his samples came from the separator...pretty much rules out any water removal before Shepherds began their quest for justice.

The PCV from my truck was inspected by a Detroit Diesel fuel injection engineer. His specialty is Bosch HPFP systems. At my request, he examined the PCV closely. I asked him about the slight discoloration of a small area of the PCV. He said it was normal and not related to the presence of water. After his inspection I asked him about the probability of this being water related. His answer was no water presence apparent in the HPFP system. Are we questioning his credentials?

This was not water...it was poor fuel ingested into an even poorer HPFP...It's design is not up to the task. Owners should not have to worry about the quality of the fuel...the engine should have been designed to run on fuel we can reliably and regularly purchase

Ford politics is what sent this deal into the crapper...

Guy's enjoy your trucks...and the Pep Rally...I am going back to my airplanes

Kumbaya

 

Show me all the failed pumps, Rick. Since this is a "poorer" HPFP then you should have no trouble pointing to the mountains of these failed pumps that are on the road.

I mean there are what...over 400,000 of these out there? Show us the mountain of failures that surely exist of this badly designed pump! Otherwise your argument is looking pretty weak. Nothing you have posted would preclude the possibility that you got bad fuel somewhere. And before you jump to conclusions by thinking that I mean water, I do not. I mean lack of lubricity, which is exactly what your engineer has said already. And before you insist that every single drop of fuel that has entered your tank has been to the ASTM spec, I'll ask you how you know this.

Based on the information available to this time I could hypothesize that the fuel that the vast majority of people have been using is suitable for use in our trucks. Based on other things I've read I can say that ULSD that has not been properly treated will destroy an HPFP in a hurry, good design or not. And it's even been proven in labs that on occasion substandard fuel makes it out to filling stations. Such substandard fuel could destroy the pump because it's not up to the required specs, which is akin to putting vegetable oil in your crankcase and expecting your engine to last.

But of course that couldn't happen to you, Rick. There's absolutely no way a single drop of bad(see above for definition) fuel could have ever entered your tank. It's a bad design, plain and simple. Right?

 

you are forgetting the part about facts entering the discussion.

Rica tic

Like others I totally agree that this was handleded terribly. Your information is vitally important to all of us. I have learned a lot and brought this issue to my salesman and service manager where I live. I- like most on here would be irate and I am not sure I would have handled it as calmly as you did. I have been in the market for a new truck for several years. I purchased my truck after a lot of lurking on this site. Much of the information that I took into consideration were many of the discussions in which you provided substantial data and logical comparison. That said, while I know, it has been emotional. ( I speak for myself). I have found that that being a called a whistler comes across as condescending. Having it littered in many of the posts has taken away from the overall message. I can't afford to trade my truck in because of your misfortune ( nor do I want to, it is the nicest vehicle I have owned) but I find the info on this site to be extremely important. Your info and participation is valuable. I am now aware of this issue and made my wife aware since she pulls with it more than I.

I also enjoy the comradarie on this site and like the fun of it. I don't think because many of us post that we are enjoying our trucks that we are a bunch of blind mice singing kumbaya. Just my .02 cents. I don't mean my comments as a negative bash to you but my feelings.

I for one want to be appraised of what continues to transpire with your situation. Again you are the most comprehensive case study we have. From a research paradigm. Multiple case studies, provide a case series and with your information and those of others ( a larger sample) if this transpires a cohort which is higher level evidence. Thus providing the needed info for this to be rectified on a larger scale recalls etc

All my best

 

Hey FTE Herman, I just saw in one of your old posts that you are in Lafayette and you deal with Raisor Ford. I guess we can check one HPFP failure off of the list, because we both posted about the same failure. It looks like they told you the same thing over at Raisor about the Titan tank.

 

Can someone tell me if it is normal when an HPFP goes that it kill the entire fuel system? I'm OK replacing a fuel pump that fails at 10,000 hrs in or less for $2K, but knowing that this may happen without warning and kill the whole fuel system for a $10k repair really pisses me off. This is a disservice to the customer and reeks of gouging. I think we all expect to replace pieces of the fuel system over time but not all at one shot.

 

one thing I do have a problem with AND I think is a poor design is IF the HPFP goes out it spreads metal through everything and ruins it. that is very not good. isn't there some design feature that could be added so that if the pump does go out it doesn't ruin everything else in the fuel system??

 

It's not gouging, it's a standard in every high pressure common-rail fuel system I've ever read about. When the HPFP goes it will send shards of metal throughout the high-pressure fuel system which can destroy the injectors.

Read this:



Policy is to replace the entire high pressure fuel system for any case of contaminated fuel or HPFP failure.

It's not gouging, this stuff operates at an EXTREMELY high pressure and is expensive to fix...when you force metal at 30,000 PSI through intricate parts it causes serious damage.

 

The gouging comes in when they charge ridiculous prices for injectors x 8.

 

my experience is with dodges and if any of their injector pumps went bad the procedure was not to replace the entire fuel system. the VP 44 injection pump went bad on my '02 dodge, they were known to not be that durable of a pump. no one that I know of needed injector replacement and all that stuff. to me this is the most troubling long term situation about our trucks.

I don't believe that our pumps are ticking time bombs like ricatic does, but lets say they are a 150,000 mile part. at that sort of mileage the expense of repairing something like that could come close to the value of the vehicle. so its just junk at that point. no this isn't ok, no it aint normal or standard, its bull chit.

if these parts are only good to 150k miles and with diesel pushing close to $1 more /gal. is the diesel engine going to be not cost effective one day??