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  #1  
Old 11-19-2011, 05:32 PM
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Starting a 351W build

Edit- I was on pain killers for a little neck injury and crossed posts between two topics and forums.

This engine will be for my dads '66 Mustang Coupe. It currently has a 289/3speed.

He won't drive it much, it'll be a show-off car, he'll do burnouts, and I'd be surprised if he doesn't hit the drag strip in it.

We'll be doing a 5 speed swap (he wants a six speed if we can do it easily) and we're planning to do either a 9" or more likely a 8.8"

The engine-

E4AE block
Heads will be aluminum, 60CC, 1.94/1.60 valves 171CC.
292H (but I'm open to suggestions, I just happen to have this cam around) (would a roller

Pistons- Looking for recommendations here. Since the car will only be a toy, I'm looking for the highest compression I can get on premium and maybe an additive. Don't want to be crazy. I'm sure my dad will never boost it, but i would not be surprised if he tosses a little spray on it eventually (if the engine can take it). Looking for Forged here. Thinking Probe SRS +4cc pistons giving me a 10.52.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:41 PM
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I have a '65 Mustang, 331 stroker running that cam. I don't think it would work particularly well with stock heads - it doesn't really start to pull until ~3,500rpm and is good to ~6,500 or beyond. Stock heads are good to maybe, maybe 5,000rpm on a 351. I wouldn't go much past 220 degrees duration @.050" with stock heads.

Are you using a '69 block? They're ~.02" (iirc) shorter than late model blocks. Get the block machined and measured before you order pistons to get the compression height right. I made that mistake on a '69 351W long block I built for a now gone truck project and it took a very expensive pair of .080" MLS head gaskets to keep the piston to head distance safe.

And on a totally related note, if you're anywhere near Dallas I could make you a deal on an engine that would work really well in that Mustang.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:47 AM
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Block is a E4AE.

From what I understand, the heads aren't all that bad. They are from a boat, and what little I could gather they have decent ports with no emissions bumps, and are high compression. How would that cam go with a set of 171cc 1.94/1.60 aluminum heads?

I also found a set of Twisted Wedge heads for $600 locally...
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:39 AM
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Aren't that bad is relative, I guess. But as a point of reference you'd probably pick ~125hp over them with a pair of AFR185 or those TW heads running that cam.

I love the way that 292h cam idles at ~1,000rpm with a nasty lope but there are a lot of times I've got to hunt gears to keep it in the power band. Is yours an auto or manual? Mine is backed up by a Tremec TKO500 + a 3.73:1 ring gear and I'd probably be a lot happier with 4.11 gears.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:45 AM
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It will be a 5 sped at least. My father would like a 6 speed if I can find one...
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:54 AM
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For a daily driver that cam is all wrong IMO, you have the potential to build a motor that will effortlessly spin the tires from just above idle and pull hard to 5000rpm(with better heads like those TFS 170s), I don't understand why guys throw away an outstanding street powerband like this just to get a nasty idle. There is no E8JL casting either so that must be a date code.. casting numbers are usually found on the head gasket side near one of the center intake ports. If you do have marine heads they could be GT40 castings identified by a the letters "GT" cast into the top surface near one of the end bolts and also by 3 vertical bars on the end of the head, or they could be early C8OE/D0OE heads. Both of these are better than the regular production heads but still far worse than anything from the aftermarket and simply not worth putting more than about $400 total into when lightly used aftermarket heads are available so cheap.
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Old 11-20-2011, 01:09 PM
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If you do use that cam - and I'm not saying you shouldn't - you would never need a sixth gear unless you're running something like 4.88 gears.

And Paul, never underestimate streetlight appeal. In my case the Mustang is a weekend hot rod so economy isn't an issue like it would be in a DD. Like I said, I'll probably end up changing out the rear end gears to keep the revs up around town otherwise it's a freakin' screamer.

But you need to build the engine around the cam - good heads and able to safely spin enough revs to take advantage of where it works best.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conanski View Post
For a daily driver that cam is all wrong IMO, you have the potential to build a motor that will effortlessly spin the tires from just above idle and pull hard to 5000rpm(with better heads like those TFS 170s), I don't understand why guys throw away an outstanding street powerband like this just to get a nasty idle. There is no E8JL casting either so that must be a date code.. casting numbers are usually found on the head gasket side near one of the center intake ports. If you do have marine heads they could be GT40 castings identified by a the letters "GT" cast into the top surface near one of the end bolts and also by 3 vertical bars on the end of the head, or they could be early C8OE/D0OE heads. Both of these are better than the regular production heads but still far worse than anything from the aftermarket and simply not worth putting more than about $400 total into when lightly used aftermarket heads are available so cheap.
There is a E8JL casting, absolutely. I've got a set, and I've read about them. J stands for "Industrial" and L stands for "Marine" as they are off a boat 351W. I plan to use these on my own '69 Mustangs 351W. They are higher compression, and I believe they have larger valves and ports than a set of car/truck heads. I'll have them ported by the machinst, or replaced with aluminum eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonAutomatc View Post
If you do use that cam - and I'm not saying you shouldn't - you would never need a sixth gear unless you're running something like 4.88 gears.

And Paul, never underestimate streetlight appeal. In my case the Mustang is a weekend hot rod so economy isn't an issue like it would be in a DD. Like I said, I'll probably end up changing out the rear end gears to keep the revs up around town otherwise it's a freakin' screamer.

But you need to build the engine around the cam - good heads and able to safely spin enough revs to take advantage of where it works best.
I don't think I'll need a six speed yet. For now, I think we'll do a 5 speed swap, it's easy and well documented. If my dad breaks the transmission (which he truly may, I've seen him blow up 4 in the last 2 years in toys) then I'll get him to invest in a new transmission, and he can go six speed then.
The rear end we'll end up with has a 3.73/LS(for now). I have no doubt he'll need to strengthen it eventually and re-gear appropriately then.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:49 PM
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My methodology to engines may be a little bit out in left field. First I had my cylinder heads cut for 1.94"/1.60" Chevy valves. Then I ported my heads. I am primarily concerned with grinding tight turns into wide, gradual and smooth bends. I especially did this with my exhaust ports. They had those horrible smog bumps. I put ten hours into my combustion chambers alone. The smoother the combustion chambers the better. You want to tolerate all the compression and advance you can.

I built my engine around the premise that for torque I want shorter valve duration, narrow lobe seperation angle, large valves, and well shaped ports that are not too large. By my camshaft description I mean that 40 degrees of overlap from a 208/214 @ .050" is not the same as 40 degrees of overlap from a 220/230 @ .050" cam. I asked Schneider for the widest torque curve and high average torque. He prescribed a 208/214 @ .050", and 108 or 110 degrees of lobe seperation. I have read various forums across the internet referencing this valve timing or ~ it as the torque builder on 350 V8s.

Right now I am leaning toward running in open loop and tuning with Quarterhorse with wide band o2 to run 12.5:1 all the time and run as much compression, and spark advance as I can. There is a tendancy to run richer with boost so why not with higher compression. Oh, I need a wider spark plug gap, and a spark amplifier to jump the gap with all this compression, and advance.

I just learned that I can wire a wide band o2 sensor into the EGR position sensor wires, and datalog off it.

I wouldn't use a long duration camshaft unless I had a special camshaft with two different lobe profiles, and an electronic solenoid to shift between high speed, and low speed lobes with rpm. Otherwise I don't care for long duration camshafts.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:39 PM
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That's an awful big cam for a 289....

My bad it's a 351W still on the big side for 351W... look at the voodoo grinds I just put a 268 voodoo in my 351W has a nice idle...still needs to be driven but I think it's going to be ok for what it is.. What are your plan for the bottom end, Rods?? bolts?? I would recommend you use some arp rod bolts...
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:48 PM
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KB Pistons for Automotive Applications

these would work good in your 84 block
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntersbo View Post
I just learned that I can wire a wide band o2 sensor into the EGR position sensor wires, and datalog off it.
Depending upon what software you use you won't need to do this, with Binary Editor my Innovate LC1 wideband seemlessly integrates into the datalog stream via the PC com port.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:55 AM
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Good call Conanski. That would be much easier to use the software to read the wide band o2 rather than to data log off the egr. I brought this up because I don't want to run 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. I think that is for catalytic converters which many of us with older cars are not using. I am getting the Quarterhorse and wideband o2 so I can tune for max torque.

It sounds unanimous that the camshaft in question by Handegard is too big. It is a racing camshaft to me personally.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:55 AM
 
 
 
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