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  #16  
Old 06-26-2012, 06:51 PM
dmanlyr dmanlyr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kermmydog View Post
Boy how times change. Back in the day your boss told you to go tow something or go get something the last thing he wanted to hear was it is too heavy.
I remember when I was a mechanic for one of the worlds largest core drilling companies. Two drillers needed to get a 40 foot mobile home from a job site near Las Vegas back to our yard in Reno NV. So they hooked it to the Barden Bumper of a new 76 F250 with a 360 & 4 speed with a 2 5/16 ball & towed it to Reno. 450 miles over two passes over 6000 ft. The trailer was so heavy it bent the bumper down about 8" & sucked the rear frame rails in but no big deal, Nothing a little work couldn't fix.
That is part of today's problems, in my opinion, more thought & work goes into how NOT to do something than getting it done.
Just my two cents. I'm just one of the outdated old Bast--ds here.
Craig
While I can certainy agree on the talking more about something than getting it done... BUT

Bending the bumper and sucking in the frame rails in no way passes the red faced test... what would anyone involved in the whole chain of mistakes said if the hitch had failed and the trailer had killed somebody? I can just see it now... well you see, getting that trailer there was more important than a life......

I know in this case it did not, but it has happened in my state. A innocent lady was killed by a overloaded trailer tounge failure. Just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I wonder, if that person who knowingly and willingly GROSSLY overloaded his truck/trailer would have had the same "no big deal" thoughts looking at jail time.... besides facing loved ones of the person he MURDERED (my opinion, not in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of the law it was a "vehicular homicide" charge.)

And no, I am not perfect, I have pulled (and will undoubtable again) / loaded items out recommendations, but I wonder how many on here drive slower, the heavier the load or the hotter day?

I mean really, I see all the time on here that people pull in excess of the 65 mph maximum on ST rated trailer tires. Here in Washington state, ANY trailer on ANY road has a maximum speed limit of 60 mph, and NO left lane usage at all on a three lane in one direction or more freeway. But, yup, you get these yahoos driving 70+ mph in a 70 mph zone (remember, ANY vehicle pulling ANY trailer has a max speed of 60 mph in this same zone), in the left lane just trying to push the car in front of them faster by driving close, all the time while pulling a trailer!! Not one of them could even take 5 minuets of there life to actually reseach the law and rules, or they could really care less....

I wonder how many on here will leave plenty of extra space in front of them, or just NOT drive in heavy traffic, due the negative aspect that that heavier load has on braking, and that in heavy traffic people will tend to cut you off, even when moving along at a slower pace in the right lane.....

I wonder how many will pull over and put there vacation or life on hold until conditions are safer (not nessarily safe) for continued travel with the load and rig that they have? Not many I have found.... and there desire to elevate there illegal needs can cost other innocents there lives, fo no reason other than pure selfishness or simply not carring.

How many drivers do you see riding there brakes for example all the way down the hill with a load rather than gearing down (automatic or manual) and pulling over to the right lane and going slower down the hill than up the hill?

Nope, from what I can see most people, regardless of what they are driving, still follow just as close, drive just as fast and could really care less to even research basic physics and how it affects different rigs, heights and weights.

Ok semi rant over.

David
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  #17  
Old 06-26-2012, 09:32 PM
Gary Atsma Gary Atsma is offline
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Hey dmnalyr, the guy you replied to proves one thing; common sense ain't all that common, is it?
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  #18  
Old 06-26-2012, 11:57 PM
dmanlyr dmanlyr is offline
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Ya, I should probably just shut up.

But then, in my own main tow vehicle, a 1990 F250 HD, I at times will pull past the recommended max GCWR - but I do try to use common sense, and have not broken anything yet, and do limit just how much I am over. I also try to practise something called a educated risk managment scheme, emcompasing many divergent thoughts....

For example, a 1990 F250 HD, 460, 3.55 gears with E4OD has 15k GCWR, 4.10 gears makes that 18.5k, I at times have been at 19-20k so I have been a little over.

That said, I regeared my truck recently to 4.10's to better and more safely take advantage of being able to tow more, after all, moving another 3k at 8 mpg just means one less trip! $$$ saved

So some thoughts that I follow....

First and foremost, if something is in doubt, absolutly NOTHING, repeat NOTHING is important enough that I just have to drive something defective, with two exceptions...

1) Life and limb direct endangerment, both from a injury or escaping from a potential injury

2) End of the world stuff, impending nuke attack and such

I will NOT buy ANY used truck that is NOT properly equipped from the factory and has been used to tow. That means I pass by any truck that, even while nice does not have the optional towing packages. Yeah, I could put all of what the factory puts on, but why buy a 460 equipped truck that has been used to tow, but does not have the towing package engine oil cooler? It is there for a reason!

I never tow above recommended GCWR in any mountains / extremly hilly areas

I have well working trailer brakes (electric) on all axles and wheels

I verify on a regular basis that the trucks brakes are in good shape

I figure I have exactly ONE emergency stop, or big steep hill stop, then it is time to let the brakes cool. Slowing quickly from 55 mph loaded, yup that is my one good stop, after that I treat my brakes very gingerly until some time has passed. Yes, I have pulled over at rest stops / exits for a few minuts before

I tow at a max of 55 mph when over GCWR. Even if lightly loaded / no load, I will NEVER exceed the maximum speed limit 65 mph ST rated tire, regardless if the posted trailer / truck limit is higher, even for passing

I have upgraded my stock 10k hitch to a 15k rated custom hitch.

I use a 18k rated ball mount

I use a 20k rated 2-5/16" ball

I use my gears a lot and can generaly slow down fine with little brake application

I watch my following distances like a hawk. And yes, I have to practive breathing in and out when idiots cut me off charging for the exit

I drive almost exclusivly in the right lane

I will NEVER exceed the GAWR's nor the trucks GVWR as those are absolute numbers

I know exactly what the tare weight of my truck is

I know exactly what the tare weigh of my trailer is

I check and always give a bit of extra to any published equipment weight, if nothing more than to make up for water or mud weight

If in doubt, I wil not move the combination farther than the scale 7 miles away, reachable on roads with a max of 35 mph, so less kinetic energy to stop than at 55 mph, hence less opertunity to have to come to a brake heating higher speed stop

When close or at GVWR, or GCWR, tires are pre tripped and checked for air pressure. MAX air ressure is carried when needed to have less sidewall flex, which equals less heat build up in the tire

I pay strick attention to tire capacity and ALWAYS make sure that the tires have equall to, or more capacity than the axle rating

I never run badly worn or damamged tires. The rig is parked until I can get the tire replaced (I will limp a UNLOADED truck or trailer less than 6 miles to the store though, if the tire will hold air) If not, on goes the properly inflated spare

NO recaps on ANY tire on ANY position if such tire is subjected to loads close to its maximum capacity

I will NEVER put any aftermarket rim on any trailer or truck that does not have a offset EXACTLY the same as the factory as designed, to maintain PROPER centering / offset over the axle bearings so either the inner or outer is not unduly loaded

The heavier the load, the slower I will drive, down to the minimum speed on the freeways at times, as tire sidewall flex builds heat, and that flex speed increases the faster you go = more heat

The hotter day, the same as the heavier the load. Slower = slower side wall flex = less heat

Every required DOT light is verifired functional

Absolutly no way will I drive any lifted JUNK TOY trucks with a load appraching max. Yes, I have had a lifted Bronco, NEVER used for towing more than 1500 lbs nor hauling more than people or dogs

WHY? Because I do not want to hurt anyone. I am 53, and have yet to loose a tire or piece of equipment under a load.

Also, I carry a CDL, so I tend to be more vigilent. ALSO - because the company I work for requires a accident and ticket free record for continued employment

Also - because I do NOT want to loose my house, or have my paychecks garnished by knowinlgly flaunting the law and rules for safe transpotation, and having a failure, collison, whatever. AND, did I mention that I did not want to hurt anyone???

While I do not consider myself a full time CDL driver, at one time I worked for a company with a "conditional" rating, that means that most likely you will get pulled in at weight stations for a inspection, I have yet to fail or be ticketed with one exception, and that ticket was for not having a PUC permit in Oregon, but I read the rules and did not need it, as the commercial truck was in transit thru Oregon and NOT in service nor marked with any company info as that was to be added in Washington. I had a temporay licence plate. The scale inspector thought differently and ticketed me. I did not argue past the point if asking why. The ticket was dismmised. The exact quote from the permit issurer was " that was stupid of him to ticket you, you don't need one" YUP that is what I figured

This has worked for me ... I have yet to have a collison, I have had a few tickets in cars... as I have mentioned, I am far from perfect!!! Could I have a problem tommorow, YES, but I try to limit my exposure to a problem from a educated, CONTROLLED from my actions risk management

Funny thing is, at my work I am almost always called for over legal / oversize loads (all of course with the proper before trip permiting and trip route planning) since I seem to just get the job done with little fanfare, drama or issues

Ok, so I should just SHUT UP!

David
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  #19  
Old 06-27-2012, 08:29 AM
Gary Atsma Gary Atsma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanlyr View Post
Ok, so I should just SHUT UP!

David
What for? You make a lot of sense......
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  #20  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:30 PM
dmanlyr dmanlyr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Atsma View Post
What for? You make a lot of sense......
Thank you, I just do not want to come off as a know it all as I learn new things everyday. I figure the day I die, is the day I don't learn something.

BUT that said, if I do not know something, I either ask, or will spend a night or a week of nights up reading and researching to learn what I am ignorant about. So yes, I have spent many a night or weekend reading 1500 page manuals, 300 page federal DOT manual, researching my states RCW's both in print and online. Luckily I have a ability to remember that stuff pretty well.

Point is, there is a incredible amount of real life knowledge on this forum, and there is all of the information available in book, manual and online that someone could take a lifetime to learn, there really is no one that should be ignorant of the rules.. that is if they give a darn.

I also do not want to come off as perfect, I have made my share of mistakes and have learned from them. Thankfully no one has had to be injured or killed for me to learn. Thankfully as well, even though I have had a few tickets, none of them have been for a wreck, defective equipment or scattering equipment across the freeway.

And yes, I earned and owned from a responsibility aspect every ticket I have recieved. They were all fair and square as I was in truth not following the rules properly. Now that ticket I got for 57 mph on a 55 mph zone in a diesel Chevette makes most people groan, but I was speeding, and, yup I earned it by not paying close enough attention. It was my foot on the go pedal after all.

Washington state at one time during the 55 mph limits, had a roving group of you will drive 55 or less you will be ticketed. Yup, drive 56, and you get a ticket. That is how I got my 57 in a 55 zone ticket.

I hated the double nickel speed limit personally. For many reasons and aspects, but the one thing that really stuck in my craw was how the Germans, on there limited AND unlimited speed (some at 200+ mph anyone!) sections of the Autobahn could have a safer driving record overall than my fellow Americans slogging along at 55 mph. I wonder, are they really that better educated and overall better drivers than we are? Do the higher driver test requirements really pay off for the Germans? Are the stricker vehicle standards really worth it if you can drive faster with less chance of a problem?

Just things I ponder at times!

Here is a recent truck picture, 16k (round #, there is slightly more than 16k, and more if I was in the truck) GCW, truck at 6k with the dump insert, plus 1.25k in the bed. Trailer is 2650 tare, and the tractor and stuff in the trailer brought the towed load up to 8840 lbs

Note that the truck has the proper frame slope and is not squatting in the rear. ALL trucks must have positive frame slope to tow and just generaly drive as designed, leveled spring sprung trucks that have no adjustable rear suspension that squat in the rear or sit nose high when loaded tend to be, or are always more unstable in that condition than a properly positive frame slope, as designed and built, truck.

Note also the proper factory rims with the proper offset, none of the tires are "sticking" way out there reducing the axle capacity, that look that so many pay good money for just to make there truck a "toy" from a load carring aspect.

I have 50 psi in the air bags.

I do not beleive in drop, slide in drawbars (for heavier loads that is, a 2k trailer is fine) as they have a negative effect on the hitch rating as now you have a bending moment of action rather than a simple back and forth action when braking / accelerating. I do have a 10k rated 6" drop drawbar just for my small 2k trailers to get them level for proper towing. It will NEVER be used on anything larger though.

While the trailer is sitting level for best towing, and that level position is below the trucks hitch height, that levelness is achieved with a properly engineered by the manufacture adjustable ball coupler as applied by the trailer manufacture.

I will not buy any larger trailer without a engineered adjustable height coupler, so all of my trailers above 2k have this option. Yes, I will pay extra for this.

Note the extra cost to me, full roller tarp systems on both the dump insert and trailer, I do not want to be responsible for stuff blowing out, and besides, here in the state of Washington after a heavy, inmproperly secured cabinet blew out of a trailer, blinded and horribly difigured a innocent woman driving a car, it is the LAW.

The tractor is secured to D rings, with four 3333 lb working capacity straps. Way overkill for a the weight of the tractor, but I can loose two and still have a secure load. A backup for a backup so to speak.

What is not showing is the full, heaviest available tow package, including sway bars front and rear.

Notice the truck? Since all of the SRW F250HD trucks have the same 6250lb rear axle rating, as well as the SAME GCWR, regardless of SRW or Dually, I opted for NO extended cab, NO 4wd, NO crew cab, and for maximum trailer towing, NO DRW's. This allows as much capacity to move a load as I can. If I need to haul people, I have E150 van for that, this is a towing and hauling truck.

If I did use this truck exclusivly a dump truck, (I do have a dump insert in this truck, as well as a C600 dump truck for bigger loads) then I would have opted for a dually though. More capacity to carry a load, but less capacity to pull a trailer.... remember, SRW or DRW, same GCWR and a dually rear axle weighs more and steals more from what you can tow and stay within / close to the recommendations!

As mentioned, at 8mpg, every pound I can remove from the Tare weight means that much more than I can haul and possibly eliminate a extra trip from time to time. Less trips = less risk from other drivers, less miles and wear and tear and best of all, less fuel $$$$ !!!!

Tows great, emergency handling is great and best of all, no white knuckle driving in any conditions.

So do I expect any attaboys for this, NOPE. AM I posting this just to prove how great I am? NOPE NOPE AND NOPE. I am posting to point out that with a little thought, something I believe all of us with a drivers licence should have, proper precautions can greatly reduce any chance of a failure / problems / injury. All it takes is a little thought, and more importantly carring about more than just getting it done, regardless of the risk to yourself ot other people. So it takes me 3 more minutes to put on the extra straps..... to me that is cheap insurance.

Click the image to open in full size.

David
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  #21  
Old 06-27-2012, 11:04 PM
BarnettMan85 BarnettMan85 is offline
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to answer the OP's question, your going to be close (or over) to running out payload with the bigger trailer.
Forget the dry weight of the trailer. What's the gross weight? My guess is 8k or more. Even if the trailer only comes in at 7k pounds, that's at least 700 lbs on the hitch (10% tongue weight) and a max of about 1100 lbs (15% tongue weight). Add in the family and the bikes and you are over on payload.
Could the truck do it? Sure, and probably safely at that, but you really need to see what your state (or province?) says about GWVR and GCWR and make the decision then.
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  #22  
Old 06-28-2012, 12:37 AM
dmanlyr dmanlyr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnettMan85 View Post
to answer the OP's question, your going to be close (or over) to running out payload with the bigger trailer.
Forget the dry weight of the trailer. What's the gross weight? My guess is 8k or more. Even if the trailer only comes in at 7k pounds, that's at least 700 lbs on the hitch (10% tongue weight) and a max of about 1100 lbs (15% tongue weight). Add in the family and the bikes and you are over on payload.
Could the truck do it? Sure, and probably safely at that, but you really need to see what your state (or province?) says about GWVR and GCWR and make the decision then.
Good post! Welcome to FTE!

I beleive that the OP's question was answered many posts before, I see that you are fairly new to this web site, we are just in the bantering around phase now, trying to educate, help, assist one another, putting forth different ideas as to why and such.

Probably scared the OP off by now....

But to me, this is the good learning phase, taking what Ford says, taking what the regs and laws say, taking what and how different people do things / approach issues, disecting them all and figuring out the thoughts behind them, and why, or why not they should be followed and when they have to be followed to the letter and when you can fudge and get safely / legaly away with it.

I for one, absolutly hate to be told - "do it just because". I like to get the understanding of why do it and the thoughts of why, fact or opinion behind it. I have learned a lot this way.

Many times things go off topic at this point, but many times there are much more that needs to be discussed than just black and white numbers, thought has to be given why, both from a engineering aspct and safety aspect.

David
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  #23  
Old 07-17-2012, 09:40 PM
BLK94F150 BLK94F150 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Atsma View Post
No, it CAN'T, nor should, do much more. Trailer tow ratings are more about axle ratios and weight capacities than engine power. And, by the way, the 5.0 IS rated to tow 10k with the HD payload package, which includes a much heavier axle rating and 3.73 gears. ANY engine can tow 10k if you gear it right, but common sense must prevail, so you really don't want to do it with the 3.7L, for example, as those behind you on a hill would REALLY get PO'd. Anyway, long story short, tow ratings are more about the chassis than the drivetrain.
Same exact truck as 2009 and 2010 with 5.4 except with more power and torque but lower ratings.
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  #24  
Old 10-13-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BLK94F150 View Post
Same exact truck as 2009 and 2010 with 5.4 except with more power and torque but lower ratings.
I guess other things are at play than peak hp and tq ratings?
I would guess that the power coming in 500-1000 rpm higher; 2000-3500 the 3v 5.4 puts out more torque!

Dmanlyr; im with you on staying legal. I dumped my 03 expy becuase of my new trailer. Technically i probably could have towed it (7500lbs) but it was just pushing all the capacities too much.
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  #25  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:59 PM
Duche400 Duche400 is offline
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Towed a 4400 lb. trailer 200 mi. Loaded plus family with a 300 six 5 spd. A new 5.0 coyote must be awesome! I'd like to drive one and replace my gmc 5.3 good deal, long story. First and last gm!!!
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2013, 07:55 PM
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As a guy who has had a vehicle smashed with his family in it at the time by a guy towing a too heavy trailer for his F150 (who thought his brakes were good enough) it's not about being able to tow a heavy weight or getting up hills, it's about the emergency shop or emergency lane change when you have too much weight pushing your truck which isn't rated to tow what you have hooked to it.

Please think twice about exceeding your tow limits, it's the other folks on the road who may pay the price.

Just my .02
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2013, 09:51 PM
Gary Atsma Gary Atsma is offline
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Hey cv67cheng-
Looks like you know first hand that it's about the chassis(brakes, axles, frame, etc.) and how some idiots gotta be made to believe it. Too bad you were the victim of one of those characters. I sincerely hope nobody got seriously hurt in your mishap.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:51 PM
 
 
 
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