I have a secondary transmission that is used to divert power from the wheels on my 1952 Ford F-6 to a water pump that is refusing to shift. The casting on the transmission reads:

Waterous
St. Paul
8414

It has three gears: ROAD, PRIME, and PUMP. It is connected to a Waterous CA-4 pump (discontinued and not supported by Waterous). It's stuck in the road gear. I have jacked the truck up so that the four rear wheels are free to spin thinking that maybe backpressure comming up the rear of the drive shaft may have locked it with friction. The normal 4 speed transmission is in neutral, but I couldn't get it to budge out of ROAD.

I have drained and opened the transmission up. Drained oil still looks almost new. No gear teeth, metal shards or anything scary discovered. Unfortunately, the oopening is only 2 inches wide and 8 inches tall and not in the most convienient place to get a camera. However, I managed to get one shot that looks good enough to get an idea of what's going on inside (see below).

Getting to the title, I know that this is not a Ford part and not an official Ford modification, but I have seen a few members with Ford Fire Trucks and am hopeful that someone just may know where to point me or where to go or something or be uber smart about transmissions and gears and such (I just know that they shift somehow magically )

 

Ok my "wild *** guess", as I have never worked on let alone seen one til now, but could it be the shift rod has been in road for so many years that the selector gear has frozen to the drive shaft? Maybe some penetrating oil and a little friendly nudging will get it to move? Hard for me to tell by the picture but the groves the gear slide in looks kind of corroded so my best guess

 

I would guess that there are ball detents in the drive shaft locating the shifter sleeve. I would be tempted to stick a pry bar in behind the shifter and try to lever it over to the left. Of coarse while it is not running. The ball detents may have become stuck from long periods of disuse.

 

Boy, I wish I could help you? I'm going to be learning from this post too, hopefully?? I have 38 Firetruck but have not so much as touched it in a year.

do you have a picture of the entire setup and how it sits in the chassis??
mostly just curious on what it looks like and how it's situated...

btw
haven't seen you post here in along time?? welcome Back. did you find some good wheels and tires? how is everything else coming along with the truck?

cheers

Josh

 

sparky and fixnair,

I'm going to spray what I labled the "drive shaft in" and the thingy (maybe called the fork?) down with penetration oil and try again to shift it. As for forcing it, I don't think I mentioned before, but I did take a 2x4 and a larger framing hammer and bang the heck out of the shifter on the side of the truck. Dented the wood up well and was fearful that I might be messing something up on the inside. Unfortunately, I have this thing called a job that is preventing me from spending the time I'd like to on this project. I hear this problem only gets worse when you end up with a wife and kids.

jmadsen,

I found 6 wheels last year off of a 48 Dodge frame that was robbed of it's chassy for a rat rod project. (Read about it here: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...ck-ring-2.html ) I took one of those wheels and replaced the faulty one leaving me with 3 spares for the rear and 2 for the front (Enough to ferry another truck home with if I can fit one in my budget). My truck has been a regular driver - until I drained the secondary transmission a few days ago. As you can see, much of this year has been working towards getting her to draft (after I took care of my brake issues which you can read about here: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...b-parts-2.html).

 

Maybe it's the camera, but that looks pretty darn rusty. Can you fill it with kerosene or diesel and run it without load for a bit, drain and repeat until it's clean?

 

The oil that was drained is a caramel color and is coating the interior. Coupled with a crappy cellphone camera and flash, I think the picture makes it look worse than it is. I don't think it is exceptionally rusty, but maybe I am wrong. I'm not to keen about putting volitle liquids in a transmission that will likely get hot. I can't it out of road gear and there is no neutral gear so a condition of no load cannot be obtained. It is not a good idea to run fire pumps dry.

 

So I decided to remove the rear driveshaft and try to remove the rear casting so that I could push on the sliding gear/fork and such. I got the drive shaft disconnected just fine, and removed all the bolts, but the rear casting stuck on... I replaced two bolts loosely, and then took a framing hammer and struck the casting (buffered with wood), but it wouldn't budge...

More Pictures:



And an overview



Do I need to remove that Big Nut on the end of the Drive Shaft Out or is that asking for trouble?

 

I would assume so, it isn't going to slide over the yoke. Asking for trouble? I would guess it could be! Can you take the whole unit out and work on it on the bench?

 

What you don't see is the connection up to the pump and all the pump plumbing that is around... I don't even want to think about that...

But your theory, is if I take off the nut at the end, the yoke (the thingy that is part of the U-joint?) will come off and abra-cadabra, I will be able to remove the rear casting? I'm not so sure, because I cannot get any movement out of the rear casting as is. I would expect that if the rear casting was free, it would at least wiggle or move just a few mm or something and clearly indicate it was stuck on the yoke. Plus, will that expose a bearing seal or something nasty that should be replaced new everytime it is opened, and with my luck, won't be obtainable?

Just so everyone is on the same page, I am no grease monkey. I can change my oil, brake pads/rotors and shoes as well as vehicle lamps along with the blades on my lawn tractor but that is about it. In terms of precision mechanical abilities to rebuild engines, transmissions and the like... I've never done anything of the sort (except replace a pushrod).

 

It is very likely the shafts the gears ride on are supported by the front and rear casings. If they don't penetrate the casing to the outside, there aren't likely any seals, but putting it back on could be a real tedious affair -- it is probably meant to be done with the front casing face down on a bench, or vise versa. Can you find out from your local fire dept. who does work on these things for them?

 

Ah, I see... I didn't think about having to align all the rods the gears ride on!!! Now that I look at it though, the rear casting is only about 1/4 of an inch thick where it bolts on and the curcumference is only large enough for the sliding gear. The pump and prime gear rods do not penetrate towards the rear casting. I wonder if the road gear is simply a sleve of some sort...

As for who would work on them? Currently, they have agreements with the pump manufacturer. My pump model is discontinued and not supported by Waterous.

 

I have removed the nut from the yoke after going across all of creation to find a socket with thin enough walls. Unfortunately, the yoke didn't slide off, even after penetrating oil and a could of good tugs. Any suggestions? As always, here are some pictures of the progress (if you can call it that)

 

never mind- better info below

Sam

 

I have worked on many pumps over the years and that yoke is keyed to the shaft. It will come off but be careful if you use a puller with bolts through the holes. It looks like cast and if you put to much pressure on it you will break the ears off the yoke. It would be better if you can get the gear puller behind the yoke and close to the shaft so you are pulling on the hub of the yoke. If it has set up as you say for a long time it could have what we call fretting (just a brown rusty gunky substance)between the yoke and the shaft and they can be a PITA to get off. I have used heat on the hub and I have put pressure on the puller and then hit the hub all the way around with a ball peen hammer then repeat the process untill it pops off, not to hard a lick with the hammer just enough to shock it. Also does the rear housing have a couple of threaded holes that didn't have a bolt in it? If so these could be jacking holes. Once the yoke is off, you put a bolt in each of the threaded holes and tighten them down till it jacks the rear casting apart from the main body.
EDIT: I went back and zoomed in on the picture you posted and I did not see any jacking holes. But you will have to get that yoke and key off before the casting will come off. Just hard to tell from the picture how it seperates. I would first clean as much of the gunk off as possible and if/when you get the yoke off clean that shaft off REAL good with emory cloth or sand paper and then wipe it up super clean.