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  #76  
Old 09-25-2011, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 640 CI Aluminum FORD View Post
Though I do agree that exterior metals are thinner than they were once upon a time, I take little issue with that, the only place that would be a problem would be an instance like a hailstorm. And Ford is not the only manufacture to use thinner exterior metals these days, virtually everyone does it, Toyota included.

However I have to disagree with pretty much the rest of you're statement. First thing I would like to point out is the statement you made which is as follows...

(Quote)
''Parts were designed to fail, made extremely hard to work on and the parts can only be repaired/replaced with special tools so that you have to take it back to the dealer (or spend a fortune in Ford specifically designed tools) to get it fixed. I believe that this was well thought out by Ford executives to keep Ford's head above water during the bad economy. What Ford doesn't seem to realize is that eventually people will stop buying their trucks and go elsewhere, like Toyota.''

If you're talking about the 2005 F-150 that is listed as you're truck then it should be know that the economy was actually doing quite good at that time, especially truck sales...Back then Ford was knocking out almost 1,000,000 F-Series trucks a year. Even today Ford regularly does over 500,000 F-Series yearly.

Another thing I think worth bringing up is that Ford's F-Series have been the best selling line of trucks for almost 40 years. That kind of success doesn't come from ''designed to fail parts.'' My family has owned their fair share of Fords. My grandfather had a 2000 F-150 he bought new in 1999 and put 230,000 miles on it without so much as a single hiccup from it. My parents own a 2004 and 2006 F-150, the 2004 has 120,000 miles on it and the 2006 has 66,000 miles on it. Neither of those has faltered in their performance. And I myself currently own a 2011 F-150 FX4 with the new 5.0L V8 and even though its only 4,800miles on it, it's performed flawlessly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Toyota. My families owned some damn good Toyotas as well. I don't deny that Toyota makes a quality vehicle albeit a little boring maybe...But quality none the less. But I get the impression that you're putting Toyota up on a pedestal and talking down on Ford without acknowledging the accomplishments Ford has made over the years. Also let it be known that Ford is one of the only American auto manufactures to rank as high as Toyota in the annual quality surveys. So in essence you could say that every Ford is as good as every Toyota or every Toyota is as bad as every Ford.

Lastly...ALL modern cars are a pain to work on once again Toyota included. The days of working on you're own car in your garage are over. Car's today are far beyond you're average Joe mechanic's understanding. Even some auto shops have issues figuring it out when something goes wrong with a new car, hell sometimes even the DEALERS can't properly diagnose issues with new cars, so saying that Ford is designing their vehicles with disposable parts that no one can work on other that Ford really holds no water. Ford is pretty much doing what all other manufactures are doing.
Sorry, I've been away from the computer for a while... I was just replacing the AC in my 2002 Mercury Sable. You've got me wrong - I love my truck and I've been a Ford man for a long, long time. I currently own four of them. I really didn't want to get into a pissing match or too far off subject, but I think I've got some explaining to do.
First of all, I agree with you on many points. It's funny you mentioned hail, because that's exactly what happened to my truck. The hail bounced right off of my '97 explorer without leaving a mark, but did $1400 damage to my F-150 sitting right next to it. But like you said, all cars are made that way now. People keep buying Fords because they used to be better in every way - why not continue in that path? I'm not arguing that they're still the best selling trucks; and I'm aware of some of they're latest and greatest accomplishments - like the mind boggling EVO engine! My truck's body is no different than any of them that were made from 2004 - 2008. It has nothing to do with truck sales; they should be built with thicker metal so that they're rugged and you don't have to worry about dinging them up with your daily tasks. Ford should remain the only company out there still making rugged trucks with thicker skins.

Now let me get to the other points I made. You asked Monkeywrench: "Let me ask you this...Do you feel totally comfortable that you could take any select 2011/2012 model car totally disassemble the engine and transmission then put it back together in complete working order with tools that your ''average joe'' mechanic has in his garage? Much less do it as easily as you could a 1975 model car?"
That's my point exactly. I have always done my own work - in my garage with regular "average joe" hand tools. I have increased my tool collection significantly as of late. It's getting increasingly harder to do. But it's not necessary. Most of these new designs could be manufactured with the home mechanic in mind, but there not. They are made specifically to be repaired only by professionals with the budgets and facilities to buy special tools and hydraulic lifts. They are also made to be more difficult to work on than ever before. Parts are being relocated to places that are hard to get to - places that require significant man hours of labor to even get access to. Case in point; I mentioned my Mercury Sable earlier; I had to completely disassemble the front of the car and remove the AC compressor just because the clutch bearing failed. The air conditioning was still putting out ice cold air, but the pulley was wobbling. Since there is not enough room to use a puller to remove the bearing with the conpressor in the car, I had two options. Either the compressor had to come out or the entire engine had to be dropped from the bottom of the car (which requires a hydraulic lift). There was no getting to the compressor without removing the front bumper cover, upper radiator support crossmember, draning the cooling system, removing radiator hoses and the degas tank, wheel well splash gaurds, etc. The job was an absolute nightmare! With all the labor I put into it, I chose to replace the compressor and many other parts before putting it all back together - rather than taking any chances.
Now for my pick-up. I bought my truck with only 48K on it and found that it had bad phasers because the previous owner used an aftermarket oil filter (without the check valve in it). That cost $2600 and I had it done at the dealer because I don't have the special tools needed to complete that job. Then the throttle body went bad (design flaw). I got one online for $130 bucks. Then, a COP went bad. Then a spark plug went bad - Ford dealer replaced it with their special tools. Then I made my own special tools for removing the spark plugs and replaced the rest of them. Now my truck has 54K on it and my front shocks have failed, (again, design flaw), and my transmission is slipping in third (Drive). Am I wrong to expect a little more from a vehicle that I baby? I have never been off road, never pulled a trailer, and have never hauled an excessively heavy load.
And finally, I don't even like Toyota's; I'm certainly not putting them on a pedestal! But I have had a lot of friends over the years that have had flawless experiences with them. I have always wanted to buy American to support american jobs and our economy. I don't want to change that in the future. My only goal was to raise Ford's awareness that they need to start making vehicles like they used to. My 1997 Ford Explorer has been the best vehicle I've ever owned. Ford, build more like that.
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  #77  
Old 09-26-2011, 05:41 AM
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Eight speed transmissions are already on the streets from Mercedes and Chrysler. Ford is developing one for the Expedition and Navi.

I was thinking that the time will come when it will be more cost effective to purchase a 150K mile extended warranty and drive with confidence and keep the car for a couple of extra years than to not cover yourself at all. But actually, the time is now and that time actually got here a few years ago.

When I was waiting at the dealer for my oil change and bored to death, I noticed a pamphlet advertising credit for repairs over $299.00.

Ford isn't alone here gentlemen.

My buddy has a 2007 Tundra TRD. He's pretty hard on it and it takes his abuse quite well I might add.

He was in the woods hunting and while driving to his spot on the heavily mudded trail, something, most likely a branch caught his transmission line and ripped it out.

He managed to get the truck out of the woods and had it towed to a Toy dealer only to be informed that the line was damaged as well as a nipple being crimped. Five days of waiting for a part to come just sucks.
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  #78  
Old 09-26-2011, 06:12 AM
640 CI Aluminum FORD 640 CI Aluminum FORD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnlovrs View Post
Sorry, I've been away from the computer for a while... I was just replacing the AC in my 2002 Mercury Sable. You've got me wrong - I love my truck and I've been a Ford man for a long, long time. I currently own four of them. I really didn't want to get into a pissing match or too far off subject, but I think I've got some explaining to do.
First of all, I agree with you on many points. It's funny you mentioned hail, because that's exactly what happened to my truck. The hail bounced right off of my '97 explorer without leaving a mark, but did $1400 damage to my F-150 sitting right next to it. But like you said, all cars are made that way now. People keep buying Fords because they used to be better in every way - why not continue in that path? I'm not arguing that they're still the best selling trucks; and I'm aware of some of they're latest and greatest accomplishments - like the mind boggling EVO engine! My truck's body is no different than any of them that were made from 2004 - 2008. It has nothing to do with truck sales; they should be built with thicker metal so that they're rugged and you don't have to worry about dinging them up with your daily tasks. Ford should remain the only company out there still making rugged trucks with thicker skins.

Now let me get to the other points I made. You asked Monkeywrench: "Let me ask you this...Do you feel totally comfortable that you could take any select 2011/2012 model car totally disassemble the engine and transmission then put it back together in complete working order with tools that your ''average joe'' mechanic has in his garage? Much less do it as easily as you could a 1975 model car?"
That's my point exactly. I have always done my own work - in my garage with regular "average joe" hand tools. I have increased my tool collection significantly as of late. It's getting increasingly harder to do. But it's not necessary. Most of these new designs could be manufactured with the home mechanic in mind, but there not. They are made specifically to be repaired only by professionals with the budgets and facilities to buy special tools and hydraulic lifts. They are also made to be more difficult to work on than ever before. Parts are being relocated to places that are hard to get to - places that require significant man hours of labor to even get access to. Case in point; I mentioned my Mercury Sable earlier; I had to completely disassemble the front of the car and remove the AC compressor just because the clutch bearing failed. The air conditioning was still putting out ice cold air, but the pulley was wobbling. Since there is not enough room to use a puller to remove the bearing with the conpressor in the car, I had two options. Either the compressor had to come out or the entire engine had to be dropped from the bottom of the car (which requires a hydraulic lift). There was no getting to the compressor without removing the front bumper cover, upper radiator support crossmember, draning the cooling system, removing radiator hoses and the degas tank, wheel well splash gaurds, etc. The job was an absolute nightmare! With all the labor I put into it, I chose to replace the compressor and many other parts before putting it all back together - rather than taking any chances.
Now for my pick-up. I bought my truck with only 48K on it and found that it had bad phasers because the previous owner used an aftermarket oil filter (without the check valve in it). That cost $2600 and I had it done at the dealer because I don't have the special tools needed to complete that job. Then the throttle body went bad (design flaw). I got one online for $130 bucks. Then, a COP went bad. Then a spark plug went bad - Ford dealer replaced it with their special tools. Then I made my own special tools for removing the spark plugs and replaced the rest of them. Now my truck has 54K on it and my front shocks have failed, (again, design flaw), and my transmission is slipping in third (Drive). Am I wrong to expect a little more from a vehicle that I baby? I have never been off road, never pulled a trailer, and have never hauled an excessively heavy load.
And finally, I don't even like Toyota's; I'm certainly not putting them on a pedestal! But I have had a lot of friends over the years that have had flawless experiences with them. I have always wanted to buy American to support american jobs and our economy. I don't want to change that in the future. My only goal was to raise Ford's awareness that they need to sart making vehicles like they used to. My 1997 Ford Explorer has been the best vehicle I've ever owned. Ford, build more like that.

Excellent post! Very informative and it cleard alot up.

In you're closing sentance ''My only goal was to raise Ford's awareness that they need to sart making vehicles like they used to. My 1997 Ford Explorer has been the best vehicle I've ever owned. Ford, build more like that.'' I agree, I had a 1990 F-150 that was extreamly reliable. But I've also seen many new trucks go well into the 300,000 mile range with no issues what so ever. Another issue i've noticed is that alot of people really have no idea how to care for a car...And since you are obviously a do it yourselfer car guy you can appricate this. But it seems like most people think you just change the oil every 3 to 5 thousand miles and fill it up with gas and then they expect it to last 250,000+miles without a single issue. Of course that same person gets red faced mad when some part they don't even know what it is goes out because they neglected to relube it. No one realize's how much more there actually is to taking care of a car than just you're routine oil changes...I've always had good luck with my pickups, partly because I think Ford builds some of the best in the industry...But I know some of it is also because I am extreamly **** about changing out fluids at the right intravels and using the proper equipment to work on it ''If I have it'' and if not I'll send it to someone who does.

But anyway as I said earlier, Great post!
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  #79  
Old 09-26-2011, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnlovrs View Post
Am I wrong to expect a little more from a vehicle that I baby?
One has to ask, even though you treat your vehicle well, did the previous owner who had it for more miles? With the design flaws in mind, it's made by man, you do take a chance on things not going well.

Case in point. SL600 price tag over 6 figures, less then 10k on the odometer and 7 pages worth of tranny DTCs. Later known to be design flaws. No matter what you shell out, if it's man made you run a risk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnlovrs View Post
I have always wanted to buy American to support american jobs and our economy.
Unfortunately, you are not doing as much supporting as you would like to think that you are.
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  #80  
Old 09-26-2011, 07:57 PM
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I would just like to point out that any profits made by Ford or GM are subject to US federal income taxes and any profits made by a foreign manufacturer such as Toyota are subject to federal taxes of the mother country (Japan). State and local taxes are paid by both foreign and domestic manufacturers and we all the economic impact on the average American of jobs created. For the American worker a pay check is a paycheck whether it's from a foreign or domestic company or employer.
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  #81  
Old 09-26-2011, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg B View Post
I would just like to point out that any profits made by Ford or GM are subject to US federal income taxes and any profits made by a foreign manufacturer such as Toyota are subject to federal taxes of the mother country (Japan). State and local taxes are paid by both foreign and domestic manufacturers and we all the economic impact on the average American of jobs created. For the American worker a pay check is a paycheck whether it's from a foreign or domestic company or employer.

Unfortunately though, there will be a lot more going elsewhere. Corp. taxes here are 39.3%(as of April of this year, highest of all developed countries). I wouldn't be surprised if more go to Ireland and setup shop, but I digress.
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  #82  
Old 09-27-2011, 06:35 PM
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I know what the rates are, Tex. But few American companies pay that on all of their profits. While we may have the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world, we also have the most generous write-offs and deductions in the industrialized world. Actually, more like corporate welfare. I would be very sympathetic to lowering the corporate tax rate and individual rates if the deductions, writeoffs, and loopholes were eliminated. But it's still a good idea for Ford to team with Toyota or anyone else to learn. I just wish more were being done with diesel technology as the production of these lithium-ion batteries used in hybrids do far more damage to environment than any automobile of the last 25 years. And diesel would deliver far more fuel efficiency on the highway, especially in larger vehicles.
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  #83  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg B View Post
I know what the rates are, Tex. But few American companies pay that on all of their profits. While we may have the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world, we also have the most generous write-offs and deductions in the industrialized world. Actually, more like corporate welfare.
You know what my dad did for a living? Tax and contract law (he has his CPA and LLM in taxation(LLM as I understand is like a masters degree for law students)). While we do have loop holes like you wouldn't believe, they aren't nearly as much as the news makes out.

The write offs do not bring that nearly 40% to the point of some countries being in the teens.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:54 PM
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While we do have loop holes like you wouldn't believe, they aren't nearly as much as the news makes out.

General electric paid no taxes last year.They got a huge refund because of loopholes.
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:07 PM
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While we do have loop holes like you wouldn't believe, they aren't nearly as much as the news makes out.

General electric paid no taxes last year.They got a huge refund because of loopholes.
Sure one company is lucky, however, I would be more worried about the loopholes that individuals can use under the guise of some tax right-offs. Those are far more egregious in my opinion.

However, if I go further into that little detail, I'm sure this thread will be locked or moved, so I'll leave it at that for out in this thread.

I know a few corporations that are getting rimmed pretty good with taxes. I wouldn't over generalize about the ones that make the news. Along with their increase in taxes, cost of benefits to employees have gone up for the second year in a row and they are taking out more from their employees.
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  #86  
Old 10-01-2011, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by tex25025 View Post
One has to ask, even though you treat your vehicle well, did the previous owner who had it for more miles? With the design flaws in mind, it's made by man, you do take a chance on things not going well.

Case in point. SL600 price tag over 6 figures, less then 10k on the odometer and 7 pages worth of tranny DTCs. Later known to be design flaws. No matter what you shell out, if it's man made you run a risk.

Unfortunately, you are not doing as much supporting as you would like to think that you are.
Unfortunately, I can't disagree with either of those statements. But I will say that my truck was free of dents, rust or scratches in the bed, tailgate, or under carriage when I bought it. Also, the powder coating on the factory receiver hitch was free of scratches - as if it has never been used. So, I doubt it was abused before I bought it. But, you never know...
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Old 10-01-2011, 03:01 AM
 
 
 
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