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Central A/C condensation mildew problem

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Old 07-30-2011, 01:59 PM
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Central A/C condensation mildew problem

We just bought the house a few months ago. The Central heat & A/C unit is less than a year old. We were cleaning the house this morning and opened up the door to the closet the unit is in and there is mildew growning the door! My wife had been complaining of a mildew smell in our bedroom closet, but I couldn't smell it. Anyway our closet shares a wall with the closet the unit is in. I went and got the flashlight and started looking and noticed condensation all on the walls of the closet the unit is in and on the case the evaporator is in. Also condensation on the insulation that is around the copper pipe coming in from the condensor and some on the PVC drain pipe. So I called the guy that installed the unit and he is coming by to look at it, but I'm wondering if the inside of the ac unit closet should be insulated? Would that help with the condensation on the walls? Now back to our bedroom closet, there was condensation at the top of the closet and a little mildew starting to grow. The hatch into the attic is in our closet and when I stuck my hand up in the top of the closet it was really hot and humid.

Sorry that is so long, I hope its clear enough for ya'll to understand. I'd appreciate any insight!

The previous owners of the house aren't any help because they bought the house because it was in foreclosure and never lived here.

I know this is for exterior but I was wondering if this would be good to put up on the walls off the unit closet.
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Ma...atalogId=10053
 
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Old 07-30-2011, 03:28 PM
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He just came and put new insulation on the condensor line and put insulation on the drain pipe. He also fixed some places it was leaking cold air and he said that was mixxing with the hot air from the attic causing the condensation. He said insulating the walls of the closet that the unit is in isn't a bad idea.
 
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:10 PM
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How much insulation is in the attic? Might not be a bad idea to get some insulation blown in there to help keep the heat and cold from mixing as much in the closet too.
 
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Old 07-30-2011, 08:48 PM
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The first thing you need to do is to wear protective clothing and respirators and clean up the mold. You need to be able to contain the spores so they don't infiltrate the rest of the house, your ducts may need cleaning as well.

Bleach will kill the mold but I believe there is a premixed solution available on the market for this purpose.

Is the closet that the a/c unit is in a conditioned space? In other words, is it hot in there in the summer and cold in the winter? If so, insulating that room will make little difference. My A coil and air handler is in the garage and it performs just fine.
 
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:30 PM
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Yea we definitely are going to be blowing more insulation in the attic because whats up there now looks like cotton and is about level with the joists.

The closet is in the center of the house and it is open to the attic somewhat because the A/C guy said since it's a gas furnace it needs to be able to suck in air from the attic for combustion. But when you open the door it always pretty much seems the same temp as the rest of the house (not any hotter) don't know about in the winter because we are still along way from it getting cold here. I'll definitely wear some protection when cleaning the mildew.

Thanks guys
 
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:50 AM
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Your furnace should have fresh air from outside the house then just the air returns inside the house, I've never heard of furnaces drawing air from an attic. It's not something I would want to do since the air is so hot in there, and that could be part of the problem with the condensation right there.
 
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Old 07-31-2011, 06:39 AM
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By code there should be 2, TWO, air vents to an enclosed combustion appliance.
One high and one low.

"Spray Nine" cleaner kills all kinds of spores and germs.
http://www.spraynine.com/product/spr...sinfectant-635
A simple mixture of bleach and water works just fine.

Condensation is forming because there is a temperature difference
The dew point has to be -somewhere- it just happens to be on the inside surface of the closet.
More insulation won't change that, it will just hide the condensation.
Add a louvered door to the closet (or just leave it open) in order to condition that space as well and the problem will disappear.
 
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:45 AM
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I just reread this and it gave me pause.
If there is little or no temperature differential then something is -introducing- moisture into the closets.
An incorrectly exhausted gas appliance can do this.
I would put a cheap carbon monoxide detector in there just for peace of mind.
Originally Posted by jsutton
....The closet is in the center of the house and it is open to the attic somewhat because the A/C guy said since it's a gas furnace it needs to be able to suck in air from the attic for combustion. But when you open the door it always pretty much seems the same temp as the rest of the house (not any hotter) ...
 
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Old 07-31-2011, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rollerstud98
Your furnace should have fresh air from outside the house then just the air returns inside the house, I've never heard of furnaces drawing air from an attic. It's not something I would want to do since the air is so hot in there, and that could be part of the problem with the condensation right there.

My air handler and A coil are located in the garage as I mentioned earlier. I have a return vent in the middle of the house on each floor and the entire stack is open to the attic which is where it draws it's fresh air. The attic is well vented to the outside. This is a very common practice.
 
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:07 PM
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So Tim,
The A/C in your house uses the entire attic space as a return plenum?

The OP states the ceiling of his closet is open to the attic for combustion makeup air.
There is something very wrong about that.
I don't care where you live, or when your(his) house was built.

2009 International Residential Code

2406.2
Furnace prohibited from bedroom, bathroom or their closets, except direct vent installed according to manufacturers instructions.
Closet door must be gasketed.

2407.11
Vertical ducts to attic minimum 1 sq." per 4k Btu.
Galvanized metal or equivalent.
Minimum termination 6" above ceiling joists.
1 each, within 12" of floor and ceiling.
 
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ArdWrknTrk
So Tim,
The A/C in your house uses the entire attic space as a return plenum?

2407.11
Vertical ducts to attic minimum 1 sq." per 4k Btu.
Galvanized metal or equivalent.
Minimum termination 6" above ceiling joists.
1 each, within 12" of floor and ceiling.
I guess it does and the return is constructed just as you described.
 
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:32 PM
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I still don't understand the OP.
If there is no temperature differential there can be no condensation.
If it's not condensation then something is introducing humidity to the closet space.
The warm, moist air from the attic will condense on the cool interior of the closet.

Insulation will only hide the moisture, not eliminate it.
Then the mold will take over unnoticed.
 
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:56 AM
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Ok I don't want the mildew to take over so I'm not going to put up any insulation. Thanks

I'm sure there is a temp difference in the closet the unit is in since it is open to the attic and the attic is hot. The whole top of the closet isn't open to the attic, it has two squares cut out in the ceiling opening to the attic on either side of the vent stack. The A/C guy said I could leave it like that or if I wanted I could put in some vent tubing to run down a couple of feet from the top so that the combustion air draw is closer to the unit rather than way at the top.

I did as you suggested earlier Jim and left the door open to the unit and there was no condensation on the walls in there when we left the door open. So with no condensation problems when the door to the unit closet is left open. What would be my options to fix the condensation problem with the door shut.

Could part of the problem be the unit isn't totally isolated from the return air being sucked in. The door to the unit closet has a return vent on the bottom of it and the wall behind the unit has a return vent also. In every other house I've lived in the unit was in a closet that was up off the floor and the return was underneath it totally separated. The unit we have now in this house is up off the floor the same as the others but the bottom (return) is somewhat open to the top (unit). So I know as it's sucking air through the return vents that are in the wall and door it has to also be sucking (at least some) of the hot air out of the attic down over the unit and then into the return because of the top and bottom not being totally isolated from each other. Now that I've said and explained that I think that may be a major part of my problem. I need to seal off the return air (bottom) of the unit from the top of the closet so that it can only suck air through the return vents like it should.

Does any of that make sense? Thanks for the help.
 
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:11 AM
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I do not know what type of unit that you have, but I can tell you that you can use the attic as a fresh air intake, if there is adequate venting (ridge vents, gable vents, eave vents). If you have a heating unit that requires outside air for combustion, there should be two vent pipes going outside, one intake and one exhaust. Those two pipes have to be a minimum distance apart. Another possibility is that the return air plenum is not insulated properly, and could have condensation building up on it. If anything, you should call several legitimate HVAC contractors and ask them to come out and take a look at your issue and give you some advise on what to do, or an estimate. Shop around, don't take the cheapest price, but rather the best advise. If you plan on doing something yourself, at the very least that will give you a direction to go in. As far as your attic, extra insulation can't hurt, just make sure that your eave vents have a channel to vent above the insulation, so that there is adequate air flow. I would attach some type of insulation to the attic door/access. Today’s houses are built much tighter than houses in the past. Proper sealing protects against air leakage, keeping conditioned air inside the house, and unconditioned air outside. In general, a tighter house means more comfort and lower energy bills. However, homeowners today rely much more on air conditioning rather than on natural ventilation, often keeping their homes closed up year round. In older, leaky homes, this didn’t present much of a problem. But in today’s homes, some negative side effects of a having a leakage-free house are beginning to make an unpleasant appearance. Odors from pets, cooking, or even new carpeting or paint, can become trapped inside a tightly sealed house. Likewise, without proper ventilation, pollutants, radon, or vapors from household chemicals may build to unacceptable levels, causing health concerns. Homeowners themselves may even contribute to problems by burning scented candles to mask odors, which leads to soot deposits under doors and in other unlikely places where the air flows by. Also, remember that your air conditioner is a giant dehumidifier, so watch the humidity levels in your home. Forced-air heating systems are more popular today than baseboard electric, hydronic, or any other static system. Distribution fans for forced air systems typically move 800 – 2000 cubic feet of air per minute. A properly designed and sealed duct system allows efficient distribution of the heated air to various parts of the house. But leaky duct systems – which, unfortunately, includes most installations – can cause severe pressure differences between different areas of the house. This can lead to increased infiltration of unconditioned air into the home. Forced-air systems today are often designed with only one return-air inlet located in the main body of the house. This design reduces the complexity and cost of the air delivery duct system. However, it can often result in severe pressure imbalances within the home, when not taken into consideration as part of the house system. With only one air-return inlet in the home, closing an interior door can suddenly change the entire pressure balance of the house system. Since supply air delivered to the closed room has no path for return, the room becomes pressurized. Air in this pressurized room is then forced out through any holes it can find, such as electrical outlets, gaps under doors, or around window sills. With one room in the house pressurized, the rest of the house becomes depressurized. All of the air lost from the pressurized room must be replaced by air entering the house through other openings. So the house draws air in through the largest available holes with the least resistance, which may be the chimney, the vent stack for the hot water heater, the dryer vent, or other holes. In addition to drawing in unconditioned air, the air-handler or furnace is now competing for air with the vent fans, the fireplace, and other combustion devices. And since the air-handler or furnace is much stronger than any of the other draft sources, those weaker sources often become starved for air. To provide increased energy efficiency, homes today are designed with higher and higher levels of insulation in the walls, ceilings, and floors. But poor installation techniques that leave gaps, voids, or compressions, drastically reduce the effective R-value of the insulation. Improper installation of the insulation in a home can actually encourage mold growth, moisture damage, and higher energy use. Properly installed, the performance value (P-value) of thinner insulation may actually exceed that of higher R-value insulation that was installed poorly. Effective installation of the insulation helps to maintain the temperature of the conditioned air inside the home, while poor installation can reduce the overall efficiency of the home system. With older, leaky homes, the simple solution for heating and cooling shortfalls was to increase the capacity of the equipment. When it comes to furnaces and air conditioners, many builders and homeowners still mistakenly assume that “bigger is better.” But in today’s homes, over-sizing HVAC equipment seldom results in improved comfort or performance. Not only is over-sized equipment a waste of money for the homeowner, it can also cause a variety of operational problems, including short cycling, inadequate moisture removal, noisy operation, and shortening of equipment life. Over-sized air-handlers can lead to over-pressurization of the home, and increased leakage rates. For proper operation then, the HVAC system must be sized properly in consideration of the entire house system. I sure hope some of this helps you to shed some light on your situation.
 
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:33 AM
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Thanks Dave, that's a lot of good information.
 


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