TSB 11-04-21
#61
04-28-2011, 11:14 AM
I would also like to add that we are pretty fortunate that our so-called 'issue' can be solved with a simple flash. To me that speaks volumes about how well the truck itself is designed and can be tweaked for incremental improvements through programming updates. At leas we all don't require new pistons or something stupid like that.
#62
04-28-2011, 11:16 AM
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My case is that not all issues can be fixed with the flash. Some actually have problems that aren't related to the flash. For me to do my job and do it effectively, I need to see your truck and actively try to diagnose the problem. Many have underlying issues that will not be repaired with just this flash. If I just flash it first then give it back to the customer, I have an unhappy customer should things not work correctly. If you percieve me as incompetent for wanting to pursue the actual problem, so be it. But I will continue to do my job the same way as always.
But the reason that the programming was changed was due to people like me, sgt93 and others having already been in - sometimes multiple times for the issues that couldn't be fixed except for "wait for the flash".
#63
04-28-2011, 11:19 AM
EXACTLY.
"Diagnose" all you want, but explain to me how applying a flash KNOWN to at least partially address the issue reported is not a bad baseline troubleshooting step. You are now dealing with electronic components, and in the tech world, more often than not, a firmware update corrects far more issues than it introduces.
If you flash my truck based on the reports I give you, and it still has the issue, you and I are going to have a different (and more friendly) dialogue than if you say "I can't flash it first..."
I PROMISE you if you demonstrate good faith to me and apply something Ford acknowledges first, I will be more than happy to work with you should further issues arise AFTER flashing it. In fact, I will be far more understanding and patient during the process.
BUT, if you try to stonewall me, jerk me around, waste my time, and try to force me to demonstrate the issue I have already explained to you, I will bear my full wrath all the way up the chain.
Thank god for the resources an informed owner now has at his disposal. No longer can service departments hide.
"Diagnose" all you want, but explain to me how applying a flash KNOWN to at least partially address the issue reported is not a bad baseline troubleshooting step. You are now dealing with electronic components, and in the tech world, more often than not, a firmware update corrects far more issues than it introduces.
If you flash my truck based on the reports I give you, and it still has the issue, you and I are going to have a different (and more friendly) dialogue than if you say "I can't flash it first..."
I PROMISE you if you demonstrate good faith to me and apply something Ford acknowledges first, I will be more than happy to work with you should further issues arise AFTER flashing it. In fact, I will be far more understanding and patient during the process.
BUT, if you try to stonewall me, jerk me around, waste my time, and try to force me to demonstrate the issue I have already explained to you, I will bear my full wrath all the way up the chain.
Thank god for the resources an informed owner now has at his disposal. No longer can service departments hide.
#64
04-28-2011, 11:32 AM
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Now I am really glad I didn't buy my truck near Waynesville...
That is precisely the type of tech and service manager attitude I am talking about.
When I spend north of $60k on a vehicle, you can damn well bet I expect to be treated with courtesy and respect. ESPECIALLY when I am fighting an issue for months like many people here have.
Do you think we all sit around so bored that we just invent problems with our trucks to make your life more difficult? Seriously?? If most of us did, we couldn't afford these trucks. We are making a living with them, and that (indirectly) pays your salary, I might add. We don't have time to be jerked around with "we have to reproduce your issue or it didn't happen..."
I am growing increasingly tired of this "prove it to me" mentality of service shops. If I tell you this transmission misses shifts, hunts for gears, and slams into gear harder than it should, THEN IT IS DOING IT.
Believe me, I don't salivate over taking any vehicle in for service. Ever. I have many more productive uses for my time. But, when I bend my schedule to come in, take care of me. Don't jerk me around. That is a perfectly reasonable request, and anything less is just poor customer service, period.
He has EVERY RIGHT to be frustrated and unhappy.
There is a BIG difference between a completely unreasonable customer, and a customer who is frustrated with repeated attempts to fix the same issue.
That is precisely the type of tech and service manager attitude I am talking about.
When I spend north of $60k on a vehicle, you can damn well bet I expect to be treated with courtesy and respect. ESPECIALLY when I am fighting an issue for months like many people here have.
Do you think we all sit around so bored that we just invent problems with our trucks to make your life more difficult? Seriously?? If most of us did, we couldn't afford these trucks. We are making a living with them, and that (indirectly) pays your salary, I might add. We don't have time to be jerked around with "we have to reproduce your issue or it didn't happen..."
I am growing increasingly tired of this "prove it to me" mentality of service shops. If I tell you this transmission misses shifts, hunts for gears, and slams into gear harder than it should, THEN IT IS DOING IT.
Believe me, I don't salivate over taking any vehicle in for service. Ever. I have many more productive uses for my time. But, when I bend my schedule to come in, take care of me. Don't jerk me around. That is a perfectly reasonable request, and anything less is just poor customer service, period.
He has EVERY RIGHT to be frustrated and unhappy.
There is a BIG difference between a completely unreasonable customer, and a customer who is frustrated with repeated attempts to fix the same issue.
#65
04-28-2011, 11:54 AM
I just spoke with my dealer and they are taking the truck in Monday morning (the earliest I can get it in) and giving me a vehicle to drive while they have it. The mech says he believe if he changes a sensor it may fix the issue. I'm glad they are working with me. Man I have a headache over this.
#68
04-28-2011, 12:01 PM
#69
04-28-2011, 12:28 PM
11E02 is to reprogram the TCM and PCM on certain vehicles built between March 14, 2011 and March 28, 2011 because their calibrations may not meet emissions requirements of the California Air Resources Board and the EPA.
Any of the identified vehicles not yet sold will be reprogrammed at the dealer prior to customer delivery. Letters to owners will be issued in June in case they slipped thorugh.
Any of the identified vehicles not yet sold will be reprogrammed at the dealer prior to customer delivery. Letters to owners will be issued in June in case they slipped thorugh.
#70
04-28-2011, 12:40 PM
More Turbo
#72
04-28-2011, 12:49 PM
Why wasn't the sensor replaced to begin with? This is my point, if there's defective components involved, there will be defective components after the flash. Looks like a customer that waited for a flash that wasn't needed, then the "fix" is performed after the fact. This is why I profess proper diagnostics first.
#73
04-28-2011, 12:55 PM
It sounds like the sensor is a "hunch" for the mech. It sounds like a good plan to me and I assure you all, I will keep you all informed of the outcome. My dealer was very sympathetic with me and I appreciate that. The Service Manage said that he understood my pain and they are just as boggled as well. I just want my rig to work right. I was going on a fishing trip Monday but I obviously am not now. Am I ticked...you know it. I just want this thing to work right. I spent a ton of money on this truck and was glad to do so towards a non "bail out" company. I took honor in handing Ford my hard earned money. I don't want to regret my decision but I am starting to feel that way. To top it off, my dealer is not close to me and it's about a 40 minute drive. I'm sick of driving back and forth over this.
#75
04-28-2011, 01:53 PM
Amen! I hear and agree the dealership needs to validate things but when you wait and wait and wait knowing your issue fits the description of the TSB to a tee....load that puppy up and save you and me a lot of time. I love when I have to drive around with a tech and say "there, feel that?" Yes, I did....
I probably have more vested time in researching my vehicle than the dealership and I understand they can't literally do what I do for every vehicle. Know your customer, know the internet has changed the business model, and know to simply look if the customer has been in for the problem before.
I requested the update via the online appointment system and hopefully my dealership will see my summary and "history" and apply the update. If there's a big involved process, I will be disappointed that they truly do not understand the customer's vehicle history.
I probably have more vested time in researching my vehicle than the dealership and I understand they can't literally do what I do for every vehicle. Know your customer, know the internet has changed the business model, and know to simply look if the customer has been in for the problem before.
I requested the update via the online appointment system and hopefully my dealership will see my summary and "history" and apply the update. If there's a big involved process, I will be disappointed that they truly do not understand the customer's vehicle history.
First - I want to say thanks to Paul & vloney for their input & help here at FTE and on this TSB info as well..
Next - I am not sure if I get the issue with a reflash. It is not a recall - it's TSB.
The way I have always understood it, is that a recall is something that the company doesn't want to do (financially) unless it is a safety issue/problem. Then they replace a suspect part to preempt a problem..(I am not getting into whether the trans problem is a safety issue when we "stall out" pulling into traffic)..
Then you have a TSB... The TSB's were originally created (at least I thought they were) so that when a problem arose that multiple people were having - the company would see it and research it and provide a fix - The problem is that many times the dealer's tech is spending time/money reproducing/ isolating/ replacing parts, etc. So then comes the TSB so that the tech can say "OK we know how to fix without all the time & money involved in researching/analyzing each case (and charging Ford - warranty time).
Now we have the internet - so we hear of these TSB's before the dealer does in some cases. The good and the bad is - we want it & dealer says that they have to test to see if it is needed.. we as owners feel like we know best because we have been waiting on the fix.
The thing that also comes out of this is that I started having these issues in December. From here at FTE, I realized that this was a common issue and comments from those "in the know" said "Ford is working on it" so I was patient. I could have been taking the truck to the dealer leaving it telling them that the tranny needed replacement - again & again until I went to the buy back or Lemon law route...
So while I understand that Ford needs the dealer to "verify or reproduce" the issue - I think that is a waste of time and money (for Ford, Tech, dealership, Owner) to have too much in-depth testing. Meaning - mine has to "soak" for a couple of hours than go straight to a larger road for it to happen.. I can reproduce for the dealer, but It would take me (who is familiar with the way to "make it happen") and a couple of hours of my time & 2 minutes of a techs time... But, I would bet that I could leave it at the dealer for a day & they would not be able to reproduce unless I got very lucky...
Now - for the guys throwing codes & stuff that is different - they would show - but those with tranny issues I think applying a "Flash" that only cost .6/hr & no "hard parts" the verification process should be streamlined..
Sorry for the Thesis......
Next - I am not sure if I get the issue with a reflash. It is not a recall - it's TSB.
The way I have always understood it, is that a recall is something that the company doesn't want to do (financially) unless it is a safety issue/problem. Then they replace a suspect part to preempt a problem..(I am not getting into whether the trans problem is a safety issue when we "stall out" pulling into traffic)..
Then you have a TSB... The TSB's were originally created (at least I thought they were) so that when a problem arose that multiple people were having - the company would see it and research it and provide a fix - The problem is that many times the dealer's tech is spending time/money reproducing/ isolating/ replacing parts, etc. So then comes the TSB so that the tech can say "OK we know how to fix without all the time & money involved in researching/analyzing each case (and charging Ford - warranty time).
Now we have the internet - so we hear of these TSB's before the dealer does in some cases. The good and the bad is - we want it & dealer says that they have to test to see if it is needed.. we as owners feel like we know best because we have been waiting on the fix.
The thing that also comes out of this is that I started having these issues in December. From here at FTE, I realized that this was a common issue and comments from those "in the know" said "Ford is working on it" so I was patient. I could have been taking the truck to the dealer leaving it telling them that the tranny needed replacement - again & again until I went to the buy back or Lemon law route...
So while I understand that Ford needs the dealer to "verify or reproduce" the issue - I think that is a waste of time and money (for Ford, Tech, dealership, Owner) to have too much in-depth testing. Meaning - mine has to "soak" for a couple of hours than go straight to a larger road for it to happen.. I can reproduce for the dealer, but It would take me (who is familiar with the way to "make it happen") and a couple of hours of my time & 2 minutes of a techs time... But, I would bet that I could leave it at the dealer for a day & they would not be able to reproduce unless I got very lucky...
Now - for the guys throwing codes & stuff that is different - they would show - but those with tranny issues I think applying a "Flash" that only cost .6/hr & no "hard parts" the verification process should be streamlined..
Sorry for the Thesis......