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  #31  
Old 12-14-2011, 12:40 AM
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I have been a Mechanic in the Army for close to ten years now, that being said myself and some of my buddies have done some real world testing with JP8 v DF2 (#2 diesel).

First test was in Ft Lewis Washington 2002-2003
2 identical M1097A2 HMMWVs 6.5l GM Diesel (hummers)
We ran one on strictally DF2 the other on good tested JP8. We put around 20k miles on both dring training excersises and such. What was found is that the JP8 powered truck had about 2/3-3/4 the range as the DF2 powered one. It also went through two injector pumps, one mechanical fuel pump and a set of injectors. The DF2 powered truck used one injector pump.

Test 2 Ft Sill Oklahoma 2005-2006
2 identical M998 HMMWVs 6.2l GM Diesel (hummers)
I carried this test on to my next duty station where, after research on lubrication factors and power potential of the two fuels I added one quart of new 15w40 to each 28 gallon tank of the JP8 the DF2 was left unaltered. The milage for these trucks was not as high coming in at roughly 13k miles. Truck 1 (JP8+15w40) used one injector pump and one mechanical fuel pump. Truck 2 (DF2) used one mechanical fuel pump. The range of Truck 1 vs 2 was slightly improved being around 3/4+ that of the DF2 truck.

Test 3 Schweinfurt Germany 2010
2 identical M1097A2 HMMWVs 6.5l GM Diesel (hummers)
This test was slightly flawed by way of Truck 2 (DF2) had the engine replaced at 5800 miles into the test, but again the same outcome The JP8 powered truck had 75-85% the range of the DF2 powered one and had more fuel system compnents relaced in the same time period.

Test 4 Bagram Air Base Afghanistan 2011
2 identical uparmored 2004-2005 Ford Excursions
Here was the test that I had been waiting for. PRACTICAL APLICATION!!! Truck one was JP8+15w40 while truck 2 was straight DF2. This test was conducted with myself and a friend in another unit. Both trucks had aproxementally the same miles on the 11-13k and where operated in the same manner. The time frame was from June to November milage covered was around 5k. These two trucks were never driven must past 30mph as they did not leave post, both where however run very hard in 120+degree heat and down into the 20s towards the winter. They were idled constantly with A/C or heat on for roughly 15 hours a day. (Pics of mine are in my profile ) What was found is that truck 1 got 55-65% of the fuel economy as truck 2. Truck 1 had developed some injector related issues towrds the cooler months. and wound up needing 3 injectors at the end of the test. (20 November) Truck 2, mine, did not have any fuel related issues at the end of the test.

All these tests were conducted with vehicles and conditions as close together as possible. What I have found is that the straight JP8 does not have the needed lubrication to be a reliable alternitive for use in my personal vehicle. When combined with a quart of NEW 15w40 it seemed that fuel related compent replacement was reduced by 30-40%. Range and econmy was alway 15-30% lower with JP8 regardless of if whether it was mixed with oil or not.

What it would come down to with my truck I would use the JP8 mixed 50-50 with DF2 and add a good fuel additive. This could definitaly cut costs if one were able to get JP8 for free. I do not do this nor condone doing it, punishment wouldnt be worth my career, but I see maybe a 5-10% decrease in fuel component life if a 50-50 mix were used. Sorry that this was so long winded just figured some may find it interesting to know so backwoods, tried-real-hard-to-get-it-right testing. Hope it makes for a good read, any questions just ask, thanks again.
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  #32  
Old 12-14-2011, 08:28 AM
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Duke Averill
hmm very interesting thanks for the wright up I am glad now I dident run to much of that stuff through my motor. Also Thanks for serving bud!
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  #33  
Old 06-02-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKCKR View Post
OK here's a weird question, I've been told that jet fuel would be OK to use in my 6.0 Powerstroke. Is it true and what are the conciquences good or bad?
Ok so I have been in the military for 4 years yes jp8 works on a diesel I have a 7.3 power stroke turbo diesel. The thing is when you first introduce it mix it half and half my diesel works great. Good mileage and everything but when you put regular diesel back in you might want an engine cleaner to clean off the pistons. It doesn't hurt the engine unless you use it all the time. I only use it as an emergency back up fuel.
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  #34  
Old 06-02-2014, 01:06 PM
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FWIW, I used to drive a diesel VW specifically so I could burn Jet-A in it. The fleet of fuel tankers at the airport had to have a sample pulled from the sump twice a day to test for suspended water, visible water and specific gravity, that fuel could not be put back into the truck. There was a 250 gallon tank on a trailer that the company had to pay to have disposed of. I asked the site manager if I could burn it in a vehicle and he said help my self so the next day I bought a VW. I ran Jet-A in that car for 3 years averaging 60 miles a day, 5 days a week and never had a single issue.
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  #35  
Old 06-02-2014, 02:19 PM
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Guys,

This is a REALLY OLD thread.......... 2011! Still valid stuff though... it comes up in diesel forums every once in a while when someone who works "at the airport" gets their hands on a little bit of "contaminated" JET-A or JP-5/JP-8 etc......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich6.0 View Post
BE VERY CAREFULL WITH JP-8 IT BURNS AT A HIGHER TEMP THAN THE PREVIOS JP-4 OR JET A.......................
It appears that your CAPS lock might be stuck................

JP-8 has essentially the SAME BTU content as other Kerosene type fuels (which is slightly LESS than DF2, or Diesel #2.) so it cannot produce "higher temp" combustion than diesel fuel.

btw, the same misnomer is associated with (obsolete) Aviation Gasoline 100/130 or the newer AVGAS 100LL (100octane "Low Lead") ....... no it doesn't burn "hotter" nor will it produce "more power" in a car engine designed to run on no-lead gasoline but it will destroy the oxygen sensor and cat convertor pronto!



The flash point of most Jet-type fuels is also around 40C (100F)
[except JP-5 which is approx 140F (60C) The Navy of course wanted a less combustible fuel on carriers]

If anyone would like a definition and list of flash points of various liquid fuels and other combustibles, point your browser to ---> Flash Point - Fuels
Quote:
The flash point indicates how easy a chemical may ignite and burn


The flash point of a chemical is the lowest temperature where it will evaporate enough fluid to form a combustible concentration of gas. The flash point is an indication of how easy a chemical may burn.
Note that diesel has fuel has a flashpoint of approx 125F

Also note that diesel has a higher BTU content than ANY Jet fuel. So in any diesel engine, you'll NEVER get better mileage with any kerosene type fuel, but the difference might be slight to negligible. (also note that DF-1 IS a kerosene type fuel)

Kerosene type fuels exhibit LESS lubricity so if you do not add some type of lubricity enhancer, depending on the type of injection system, (if it depends on fuel as a lubricant) the kerosene type fuel may damage it or it may wear out faster.

Many jet type fuels have been tested extensively by the US Army and others as indicated above.....because they want a single fuel for universal use.

I am not sure I would want use it in a HEUI engine though. Aren't VT-365 injectors are somewhat sensitive to low lubricity fuels? But they certainly don't seem to care what color diesel is.......

Quote:
Throw some highly filtered used motor oil in the tank
I wouldn't do that in an HEUI engine......

Quote:
FWIW, I used to drive a diesel VW specifically so I could burn Jet-A in it.
So did I (still do) , I don't think any of the older Bosch, Stanadyne, Denso etc rotary type pumps are as susceptible to low lubricity fuel as newer HEUI injectors or common rail HP pumps......

And by the way, JET-A currently is still approx $5-7/gal in Ca, OR and Wa.

I am not thinking I would buy it for my diesel. It IS a bit cheaper to buy for use as cleaning solvent if you shop though.......


Cheers,


Rick
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  #36  
Old 06-02-2014, 04:53 PM
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...and I would NOT buy a NEW VW CLEAN-BURN diesel engine to run JP-whatever in it!!!

Once things start burning up and you run to your dealer you will find out you now have a boat anchor for an engine.
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  #37  
Old 06-02-2014, 05:22 PM
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What's happened to Diesels in recent years that they are so fussy and picky about fuel? They literally used to burn anything, that was the whole point.
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  #38  
Old 06-02-2014, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tedster9 View Post
What's happened to Diesels in recent years that they are so fussy and picky about fuel? They literally used to burn anything, that was the whole point.
The Govmn't got involved......
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  #39  
Old 06-03-2014, 11:07 AM
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I have run an IDI on JP-4 (really old JP-4, too) and it did fine, though I was concerned about the lubricity. It was just a one-time experiment.

Haven't really wanted to experiment on my 6.0, but I may get there eventually.
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:14 AM
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matthew.mccleary.nm harleynmt matthewmccleary immortalbroom32
What always amuses me is the "dyed diesel will stain your entire fuel system red!!!" canard.

Filters, maybe. Metal? I really doubt it.
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Old 06-03-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by flainn View Post
I have run an IDI on JP-4 (really old JP-4, too) and it did fine, though I was concerned about the lubricity. It was just a one-time experiment.

Haven't really wanted to experiment on my 6.0, but I may get there eventually.
DON'T do it!

JP-4 (NATO F40, AKA JET-B) is also known as "Wide-cut gasoline" Or "Wide-cut Kerosine". It has a fair amount of naptha in it and as such has very little lubricating qualities, produces a combustbible vapor and unless you add a LOT of lubricating oil, It will eventually damage fuel-lubricated diesel injection systems.

Think Kero mixed with gasoline............. Ask anyone here what happens to a 6.0L engine when you mix gasoline with diesel (gasoline mixed with K1 would be much worse IMHO since Kerosine has lower lubricity)



I don't know where you'd get it anymore though. The USAF stopped using it in the mid 90's It was pretty much completely replaced by JP-8. I think JET-B might be still in use in the Arctic Northern Canada etc,

I wouldn't run it in a gasoline engine either...... (K1 mixed with Gasoline!!)
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BPofMD View Post
...and I would NOT buy a NEW VW CLEAN-BURN diesel engine to run JP-whatever in it!!!

Once things start burning up and you run to your dealer you will find out you now have a boat anchor for an engine.
Neither would I but go back 20 years when I was a new father, new family and trying to get by in the world having to commute 50+ miles once and sometimes twice a day to play pilot hauling unappreciative people in an airborne taxi and finding a free fuel source. I didn't give a rats rear end about what it might do to an already old and tired VW diesel, which FWIW it didn't do anything except run. Was still running when I sold it to the next guy at work looking for a car to burn the free fuel source for $200 more than I paid for it. And, as far as I know he sold it, still running a few years later to yet another person at the same operation who also ran Jet-A in it.

Would I put Jet-A in a modern engine, only if it were a life or death situation but I also wouldn't pump #2 Diesel into the wings of our G-650 either however I did burn #2 in an old King Air on more than one occasion because finding Jet-A in the jungles of Columbia isn't like dropping into Teterboro for a top off.
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:51 PM
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Great read guys. Very interesting to here all your experiences. Makes people think, and I agree about the young man thing getting by, been there did that also.
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:54 PM
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I remember using (free! LOL) 115/145 AV-GAS in a '55 Chrysler Windsor. Had to cut it with regular to keep from burning up the valves!
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BPofMD View Post
to keep from burning up the valves!
Yeah. Leaded avgas goesn't "burn" valves either any more than any other avgas. nor do you get higher EGT. EGT in a gasoline engine is directly a function of fuel:air mixture (lean)

115/145 (purple) did have more lead than 100/130 (green) and of course 80/87(red) , but no more BTU/gallon......In engines that required it, the extra HP available was from (gear-driven or turbo) super-charging.

Using lower octane number (lower lead) fuels would result in detonation in highly supercharged engines followed by complete engine failure.

About the only problem you would have using higher lead fuels in engines that didn't need it is lead fouling of plugs, tops of pistons, exhaust valves and combustion chambers in general.....because the lead didn't scavenge well in low HP engines.

I didn't say that JP-4 or any other "Wide-Cut" fuel would immediately damage any injection pump, but it would wear it out prematurely.

I wouldn't even try it in any HEUI or Common Rail engine since the HPFP and HEUI injectors are quite sensitive to low lubricity fuels......and JP-4/JET-B are far lower than even low sulfur diesel fuels...


Quote:
Would I put Jet-A in a modern engine, only if it were a life or death situation but I also wouldn't pump #2 Diesel into the wings of our G-650 either however I did burn #2 in an old King Air on more than one occasion because finding Jet-A in the jungles of Columbia isn't like dropping into Teterboro for a top off.
Actually, JET-A, is VERY close (almost identical) to D-1 which you might get in Fairbanks ot other "North" places.


Many years ago, I was filling my Dodge D-50 (Mitsubishi) diesel in the SOCAL desert (Palmdale) and I was watching the fuel go into the tank and thought it looked funny.......clear, no foam etc..........It felt 'different' didn't seem as "oily" etc....

I couldn't tell any real difference in running except the smell. the mileage and noise was approx the same



My fuel tank was almost empty and I filled it up. the exhaust smelled like jet exhaust! (It was JET-A)

I didn't know a lot about diesels back then but when I asked my diesel shop owner/pilot friend, he told me that a lot of stations back then would get Jet fuel once in a while that was defueled from aircraft because they couldn't use it in aircraft (still true today)

A LOT of times they sold it as "K-1" but would stick it in diesel tanks too. I don't think that happens much anymore because of the extreme liability with newer diesel engines today.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:26 PM
 
 
 
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